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TWO!!! 2!!! Raptures

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posted on May, 4 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by watchtheashes
 


Ok, so because we live today we will be spared in our suffering, but the person who lived 100 years ago - well too bad sucker, blame your momma?

I mean all the things mentioned in revelations and so forth, it is no more suffering than many have experienced on this earth for 1000's of years. Killed, tortured and so on for their beliefs. Famines, plagues have killed millions, wars that have killed millions. Pain and suffering on horrific levels has been experienced.

As I said before, it's not that I'm against the idea. The less amount of pain and suffering the better IMO. Would be nice for whoever it was done for. But it just doesn't make sense to me why 1 time period is more special than another.

And just dogmatically telling me "because it's the end times" doesn't really cut it for me either. There has to be some kind of reason behind it.

Combined with things like Jesus saying "those who make it til the end" and hope to be one of those etc, and I am skeptical of the rapture in the way described. Would like to see some reasoning behind it, because it has escaped me.


[edit on 4-5-2009 by badmedia]




posted on May, 7 2009 @ 10:27 PM
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Honestly, someone tell me where it says the church will be raptured? Why does no one talk about the 1st and 2nd resurrections that take place AFTER the tribulation and AFTER the 1000 years of peace? I think the rapture is one of the biggest scams to come to the christain culture. It's people like Tim Lahaye and huge superchurches that tend to spread these messages. How can a true christian really know they are real without the ultimate test of faith which would be the test of the tribulation. God will seal His people during this time to be saved from HIS wrath on the world. We will still be subject to martyrdom by the hands of the beast superpower.



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 01:07 AM
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meh changed my mind. :bnghd:

[edit on 8-5-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 01:24 AM
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First off, this remark defeated your entire purpose. You are telling me that Matthew 24:31 is a verse referring to the elect (raptured) being gathered? If this is the case, back up to matthew 24:29 and read through verse 31. Verse 29 begins "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..." My conclusion is that Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and 1 Thessalonians 5:15-18 all speak of the same event. Only Matthew 24 gives the definite time of this event. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days. And though you don't like the 'trumpet' argument, it's possible to connect the name of these trumpets like "The Last Trumpet" or "The Trumpet of God" in some sort of importance. All three passages I referenced explains the blowing of some sort of trumpet. Also, to ignore the resurrections of the bible, which we're told will be 2 resurrections, is to ignore the proper doctrine. All who are resurrected in the first resurrection will be raised at the return of Jesus. The second resurrection is 1000 years after the return of Jesus to earth to establish His Kingdom. The rapture itself is the event of the living saints at the time of resurrection who are changed instantly or "transfigured". You see, it has to be post-trib. The words (to meet) referenced in context with the idea that when a king arrives, his followers come out of the city walls to meet him and then escort him back to the city. This is the event in 1 thessalonians 5:17. When Jesus returns on His cloud, it is not a partial coming. It's a second-coming and only one second-coming. The saints will meet Him in the air and will escort Him to earth.





Matt. 24:30-31 takes place after the Great Tribulation ends and the trumpet call gathers His elect (the Church) from all over Heaven for their return to Earth. Luke 17:24 speaks about the 2nd coming lighting up the sky from one end to the other, hardly a secret event like the Rapture where a bunch of people disappear and no one knows where they went. Rev. 6:12-17 describes earthquakes throwing such a great amount of dust and dirt into the atmosphere that it blocks out the sun’s light. The conditions it describes are very similar to the effects of a magnetic polar reversal. (There’s one scheduled for 2012.)

Trumpets often accompany the appearance of God or of His judgments. For instance a trumpet sounded when He came to Mt. Sinai in Exodus 19:16 to give them the Law. The Feast of Rosh Hashanna is also known as the Feast of Trumpets. It lasts for a week and at the end they blow “the last trumpet.” There are 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation. The trumpet in 1 Cor 15:51-52 is the same as the trumpet in 1 Thes. 4:16, the Rapture verse, because both describe a resurrection of some and an instantaneous change of others.

The Lord promised to rescue us from the time of His Wrath (1 Thes 1:10) His wrath begins in Rev. 6 so we have to be gone before then.

The biggest differences between the Rapture and the 2nd coming are that the Rapture is a secret unscheduled event where Jesus comes for His Church to take us to Heaven (John 14:1-3) and the second coming is a scheduled public event where He comes with His Church to Earth. (Rev. 17:14)


And with this post I'm done, either receive it or don't.

[edit on 8-5-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 02:38 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 




Matt. 24:30-31 takes place after the Great Tribulation ends and the trumpet call gathers His elect (the Church) from all over Heaven for their return to Earth.


Read the parallel verse in Mark and it blows your comment out of the sky.

Mark 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, FROM THE FARTHEST PART OF EARTH TO THE FARTHEST PART OF HEAVEN.

So you see, this event does not speak about the return of Jesus WITH His saints all coming from heaven. It speaks of Jesus descending to earth while His angels are collecting the saints from earth to meet Him in the air and escort Him to earth. Even the parallel verse in Luke 21 gives more insight.

Luke 21:27-28 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, LOOK UP AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR.

Looks like the saints are still on earth awaiting their resurrection or rapture when Jesus indeed returns AFTER the tribulation.




Luke 17:24 speaks about the 2nd coming lighting up the sky from one end to the other, hardly a secret event like the Rapture where a bunch of people disappear and no one knows where they went.


Where does it say a bunch of people will disappear? Where does it show people scratching their heads because a lot of people are missing or that they are 'left behind.'? Nowhere.



Rev. 6:12-17 describes earthquakes throwing such a great amount of dust and dirt into the atmosphere that it blocks out the sun’s light. The conditions it describes are very similar to the effects of a magnetic polar reversal. (There’s one scheduled for 2012.)


If anything, 2012 will be the beginning of the tribulation. The polar reversal is not definite. Scientists don't truly know what will happen. What is sure is the show we'll see in the sky Dec. 21, 2012 around 11:11 pm.



Trumpets often accompany the appearance of God or of His judgments. For instance a trumpet sounded when He came to Mt. Sinai in Exodus 19:16 to give them the Law. The Feast of Rosh Hashanna is also known as the Feast of Trumpets. It lasts for a week and at the end they blow “the last trumpet.” There are 7 trumpet judgments in Revelation. The trumpet in 1 Cor 15:51-52 is the same as the trumpet in 1 Thes. 4:16, the Rapture verse, because both describe a resurrection of some and an instantaneous change of others.


As well as the trumpet in Matthew 24:31. It describes the elect or "chosen ones" as it is also read. Who are God's chosen? His saints. No one else is chosen until after the melennium of peace. The feast of trumpets is only 1 day long. 9 days later is the day of Atonement. 5 days after that is the Feast of Tabernacles which is 7 days long plus one day for the "Last Great Day." I celebrate these days as a christian and reading leviticus 23 you will see God didn't put a week into the feast of Trumpets.



The Lord promised to rescue us from the time of His Wrath (1 Thes 1:10) His wrath begins in Rev. 6 so we have to be gone before then.


You have to understand, God's wrath does not start in rev. 6. The seals that are opened are events caused by man and the beast, but allowed by God. God does not do these things to us directly. Also note that the first 5 seals have been opened for a long time now. The great tribulation starts between the 6th and 7th seals. We are in the process of the 6th seal now. Once the 7th seal is opened, we have 3 1/2 years of tribulation to go through. It isn't until the 7th seal that God's wrath is poured out on the remaining population. This is also known as the hour or day of the Lord. Those of us RESCUED from the wrath of God, are not up in heaven, but are in the wilderness, unaltered from the events of God's direct judgement on those who accepted the mark of the beast.




The biggest differences between the Rapture and the 2nd coming are that the Rapture is a secret unscheduled event where Jesus comes for His Church to take us to Heaven (John 14:1-3) and the second coming is a scheduled public event where He comes with His Church to Earth. (Rev. 17:14)


Where does the bible say Jesus comes back for an unscheduled stop? And to take us from heaven? John 3:13 No man has ascended to heaven except He who came from heaven, that is the Son of man who is in heaven.
The second coming is scheduled, but rather than arrive in the air with His church, His church meets Him in the air and escorts Him down to prepare the battle of Armaggeddon.

You basically took a few vague verses to stretch your point but all things still lead to the fact the Church will go through the tribulation but will be sealed with the mark of God to escape His wrath. The rapture is an extention of the first resurrection (saints) for those who are still alive but have Christ in their hearts. Instead of resurrecting, they will be transfigured and rise with the resurrected to meet Jesus. This all occurs AFTER the tribulation. The first century church never even taught rapture doctrine. The idea was presented by a man in the 1800s by the name of Charles Darby and was popularized even more in our generations with Tim Lahayes famous books and movies of "Left Behind."



And with this post I'm done, either receive it or don't.


I have read your remarks and it still offers no real proof of a pre-trib or even mid-trib rapture. It's a shame rapture folk won't debate this issue any further than what you have presented. If you don't like this argument, you'll hate my spill on heaven and hell. In fact, I invite you to read some of my most famous threads like "Heaven and Hell: The Biblical Truth vs. Traditional Christianity" or "The pre-creation existence of Christ". I even have a lengthy thread on the rapture on my profile that you may want to read over for research. God bless you.



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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Fine! I might, Might come back to this. I dont know why nothing I say is gonna change your mind. I've given all the facts and you still want more. It seems to me you firmly beleive what you beleive. Even though I can continue on, what would the point be? What glory do I bring to God by debating with you something you wont receive? I'll pray like I always do before I respond to a comment. If the spirit puts it on my heart to continue I will, if not then I won't.



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 


You need to understand that I use to believe in the rapture. I use to be baptist but what you gave me was nothing proving pre or mid trib rapture. I want more because what I have for my defence is way stronger than yours. You are using vague passages and adding your own interpretation of them. I am using bible scripture and letting it interpret itself. It all leads to the first resurrection, and no secret event beforehand. I can tell you are irritated and maybe that's a good thing. It might cause you to do research outside of your rapture box. That's what I had to do. God bless you and remember, Jesus said that hatred was the same as murder so don't hate on me.



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 

Irritated yes but not at you, read alot of garbage before I came over here to BTS. Being a christian, and hated by everyone, having everyone hate/put down your God/religon is alot to shoulder. I can't say what I want to say nor how I want to say it. It's like talking to a brick wall at times.
Know what I mean. OK back on topic, will post more in abit.

[edit on 8-5-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 06:10 PM
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Matthew 25:31,32 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations" Carefully notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns, and the nations of earth will be gathered before Him to be judged. How can this fact be reconciled with 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which states that the saints will be caught up together to meet with the Lord in the air?

Matthew 25:32 to 34 - "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Please notice that there is NO translation (i.e., Rapture) of the sheep mentioned here. When the Lord returns to the earth at the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going to gather the nations of the earth together--separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32), i.e., the righteous from the unrighteous. The sheep (saved) will simply enter the Kingdom, and the goats (unbelievers) be cast into everlasting fire. The test in this judgment is the treatment accorded by the nations to those whom Christ here calls "my brethren." These brethren are the Jewish remnant (i.e., the 144,000) who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the Tribulation. Carefully notice, there is NO mention of a resurrection and the persons judged are the nations of the earth. In sharp contrast, according to 1st Corinthians 15:52 there WILL BE a resurrection at the time of the Rapture.


It is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, i.e., no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord. People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium. Proof of this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium. Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom. Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture? Obviously this cannot be. The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!


Jude 1:14 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." Carefully notice that NO mention is made of a Rapture at this time. Quite the contrary, here the Lord Jesus is returning with TEN THOUSANDS of His saints to the earth. That is drastically different than having our bodies changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and being "caught up" into the clouds to meet with the Lord. It would make no sense to say that Jesus is going to Rapture the saints, while coming to set up His Kingdom at the same time. Proof that this is not the case is the fact that Jesus will gather the nations and separate the sheep from the goats, i.e., the saved from the unsaved, at His Second Coming. Why would Jesus separate the saints TWICE? That is, why would Jesus Rapture the saints into the air, and then regather the SAME people a short time later when He arrived on the earth? Do you see the dilemma of the Postribulation heresy?



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Revelation 19:11 to 14 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Here we read about ARMIES from Heaven, riding upon white horses, following Christ into the Battle of Armageddon. There is NO mention of a Rapture. There is NOTHING in 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 or 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 about armies, or ten thousands of saints, coming to earth to war. The exact opposite is stated... we will be LEAVING this sin-cursed earth! Amen!



God will NOT allow the Church to go through the Tribulation Period. It will be a time of atrocities as the world has never known! God wouldn't destroy the wicked in Noah's day until Noah and his family were all safely aboard the ark. Not one drop of rain fell until Noah and his family were on the ark, and God had shut the door. Afterwards, the rains fell and the wicked were utterly destroyed. The same is true of Lot and his family. Although Lot was a backslidden believer, he was nevertheless a "just man," a righteous man (2nd Peter 2:7,8). We read in Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither." These words were spoken by the angel whom God had sent to reign down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah. No judgment could fall upon Sodom, until Lot and his family were removed. Likewise, the Church will be Translated (Raptured) away from this sin-cursed world before the Tribulation.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." -Revelation 3:10

The "word of my patience" in Revelation 3:10 is the Word of God. Here we have God's promise that because we have kept HIS WORD concerning salvation, i.e., because we have OBEYED the Gospel, He will keep us "from the hour of temptation" (i.e., the Tribulation Period). This seven-year period of tribulation is referred to in the Old Testament as The Time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7-11...





"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him ... Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 06:15 PM
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It will be when the Church is removed from the earth (i.e., after the Rapture) that God will again recognize the nation Israel in a special covenant relationship with Himself. During the Great Tribulation, a remnant out of Israel will repent and turn to their Messiah. They will become His witnesses (Revelation 7:3-8). Thus, the time of Jacob's trouble will cause many Israelites to turn to the God of the Bible. We read in Matthew 24:14 concerning the Tribulation Period, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." We read in Revelation 7:4 who the 144,000 are going to be ... "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." The 144,000 will be Jewish soulwinners! These are the preachers spoken of in Matthew 24:14. They will win multitudes of lost sinners to the Lord (Revelation 7:9). As a result, many of them will be martyred (Revelation 6:9).


The Church Must be Removed from the World Before the Tribulation!

Thus, having laid the foundation, let me say that the Church (i.e., all believers) MUST be removed from the world before any of this can happen. 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-10 clearly tells us that the Antichrist (man of sin) cannot be revealed on earth until the Church is removed from the world. 2nd Thessalonians 2:7-9 state... "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." It's as obvious as can be to any genuine believer, who is familiar with the Word of God, who "He" in verse 7 is referring to... the Holy Spirit of God! Jesus said in John 16:8 concerning the Holy Spirit... "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." Where does the Word of God say that the Holy Spirit lives? 1st Corinthians 3:16 says... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" Are you starting to get the picture? The Antichrist doesn't stand a chance with Christians in the world, because we will EXPOSE him.

2nd Thessalonians 2:7 is incontrovertible PROOF that the Rapture must precede the Tribulation! There can be NO other Person for "He" than the Holy Spirit. Also, the events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ are irreconcilably different with the events concerning the Rapture--solid PROOF that the Bible teaches a Pretribulation Rapture! Some people today are claiming that the Rapture doctrine didn't exist until recent centuries. That is absurd! We are reading the exact same Words of God today which the Apostle Paul penned nearly 2,000 years ago! It's not a question of history, but of faith in the precious Words of God.




[edit on 8-5-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 06:20 PM
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Ok I think I covered all your points in your last posts. If I missed something please point it out so I can cover it. I forgot how much I hated typing until now.



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 07:16 PM
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My my all this confusion. That is exactly why like I said there will be TWO raptures. One pre-trib and then one post GREAT TRIBULATION. So it goes like this.

Tribulation for 3.5 years->Great Tribulation for another 3.5 years. That's where you have the seven year period at. Then comes the Day of the Lord period after that for all those who did not accept Jesus's coming at the Sixth seal event. The Church will not have to suffer God's final wrath, neither will those who finally turn to Christ at the First Resurrection. Then the seven bowl judgements and the final battle of Har Megiddo. I kinda want to see it happen myself, but I wouldn't mind being taken out at this point.

[edit on 8-5-2009 by watchtheashes]



posted on May, 8 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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This is where the Messiah(Christ) pours out the wrath.

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before the great and the terrible Day of the Lord come.

Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision:
for the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the Day of the Lord!
To what end is it for you?
The Day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20
Shall not the Day of the Lord be darkness, and not light?
Even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15
For the Day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen:
as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee:
thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God:
for the Day of the Lord is at hand:
for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice,
he hath bid his guests.

Zephaniah 1:8
And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice,
that I will punish the princes, and the king's children,
and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

Zep 1:14
The great Day of the Lord is near, it is near,
and hasteth greatly,
even the voice of the Day of the Lord:
the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them
in the day of the Lord's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 2:2
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff,
before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you,
before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment;
seek righteousness, seek meekness:
it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh,
and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the Lord:

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:

1Colossians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

2Colossians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing,
even as ye also are ours in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

1Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly
that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Philippians 1:10
That ye may approve things that are excellent;
that ye may be sincere and without offence
till the day of Christ;

Philippians 2:16
Holding forth the word of life;
that I may rejoice in the day of Christ,
that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2Peter 3:10
But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



posted on May, 9 2009 @ 01:09 AM
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reply to post by watchtheashes
 




2Peter 3:10
But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


That's cute. And you think this happens at the end of tribulation? This verse here specifically talks about the DAY of the Lord being the time when heaven and earth pass away. Revelation 21 speaks of the new heaven and new earth. Funny thing.... this happens at the end of 1000 years after tribulation. The Day of the Lord is also known as the White Throne Judgement in which the GOATS and SHEEP are separated in the SECOND RESURRECTION. The HOUR of the Lord happens at the end of the tribulation. The Hour of the Lord is when Jesus returns to earth and resurrects His saints from the grave and raptures the living saints.



posted on May, 9 2009 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 


In reply to your pulling scripture out your rear-end (sorry to be so blund and offensive but read this), I have some stuff for you to read through.





The rapture as doctrine
Although the idea of the rapture is accepted as fact by millions, its proponents cite only a few ambiguous biblical passages to teach and define the doctrine.

A dictionary defines rapture simply as "ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy." Another says rapture means "a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things." How do these meanings relate to the return of Christ?

Explanations are ambiguous. Some point to a single word in the Latin translation of a single word in the Greek text of the Bible (Mike Cady, The Rapture-Prophecy Bible Study, 1998, p. 3). The Latin word is rapere, meaning "to seize" or "to abduct." The concept is that Christians are suddenly snatched or seized from the earth by Christ.

So widely held is the belief that the theological definition of the rapture finds its way into another dictionary as "the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to the earth."

Even this definition does not accurately reflect the prevalent explanations of the rapture theory; that is, rapture defenders teach that Christ will do the snatching of believers before and separate from His return, not "upon His return."

Christ, they say, will approach the earth, not return to it, to seize believers several years before His actual return-the second coming.
According to the most common version of the rapture:
Christ revealed the rapture to the Church in the apostle Paul's epistle of 1 Thessalonians.
This is a secret coming, evidenced only by the absence of Christians afterward.
At the rapture Christians will be changed to spirit and transported to the safe haven of heaven to wait out a seven-year "tribulation" that occurs on earth.
The rapture's purpose is not only to protect Christians, but to motivate them to be spiritually ready at all times for their unannounced abduction by Christ.
Supposed scriptural proof
What is the scriptural basis for this enigmatic doctrine? Credit for development of the rapture theory generally goes to 19th-century theologian John Nelson Darby and his interpretations of the apostle Paul's statements regarding Christ's return.

Although some advocates of the rapture occasionally refer to a few other scriptures, all agree that the main argument is based on this passage from Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

It is the Greek for "shall be caught up" that is translated into the Latin rapere, the linguistic basis some claim for the word rapture. But where is the theological basis for the doctrine? Where does it say here—or anywhere else in the Bible, for that matter—that Christ will come close to the earth to remove Christians years before His prophesied second coming?

What Darby interpreted to mean that Christ would come close but not actually return to the earth are three words: "in the air." He took license from the fact that the verse doesn't say that Christ actually returns "to the earth." (Darby may well have been motivated by noble objectives, as we will note later.)

A theory based on inaccuracy
Before examining other aspects of the theory, it is necessary to analyze these verses. The entire theory hinges on whether Darby's understanding was accurate or not. The Bible tells us that "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20). That is, true understanding must come from God alone.

One of the important keys to an accurate understanding of any part of the Bible is to read what it says in context. The near context of these verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 begins in verse 13 and concludes in verse 18.

Paul wrote this section of the letter in answer to concerns of the local Christians. Was he responding to the Thessalonians' worries about their safety in an end-of-the-age tribulation? No. Was he addressing their worries about whether Christ would return to rescue them? No. Was he writing about their supposed neglect of their spiritual readiness for Christ's return? No.

Why, then, did Paul write 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

As you read verse 13, you discover that Christians in Thessalonica were grieving over the unexpected deaths of members of their congregation. Like other Christians of that day, they apparently thought Jesus would return in their lifetimes. Thus they were caught unprepared for the death of people in the faith.

Paul wrote that they should not be overwhelmed by grief as though there were no hope for life beyond the grave: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep [died], lest you sorrow as others who have no hope."

Paul explains his main point in verse 14: God will bring the dead back to life. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

Paul doesn't leave the subject there. He adds a time reference: "with Him." Did Paul refer to an approach by Christ, or was He referring to the second coming? Nothing in this passage justifies an understanding other than the second coming. Neither is there a nuance of a "secret" coming.

Verse 15 amplifies the point about the future of Christians who have died by declaring that those who remain alive at the coming of Christ have no spiritual advantage over those who died. "... We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Said another way, those who have died are not at any disadvantage.

Paul continues: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (verses 16-17).

All Christians, living and dead, will be included in the events described in verses 16-17:
The return of Christ heralded by a powerful angelic announcement (hardly secret).
The resurrection—return to life—of deceased Christians (the main subject addressed by Paul, according to the context).
The simultaneous joining of the returning Jesus with deceased Christians and Christians still living at the time.
Verse 18, the final verse of the section, concludes and reiterates the main thought: "Therefore comfort one another with these words"; that is, with the understanding of the destiny of Christians who died before Christ returns.

Rapture ideology out of sync
Not only is the reasoning of the rapture theory entirely out of context with the verses used to support it, the theory is also out of synchronization with events revealed in the rest of the Scriptures.

Another letter written by Paul also addresses the Christian hope of the "change" of a Christian from mortal to immortal at Christ's return. In 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 he wrote of the promise of a transformation from physical life to everlasting life. This is a crucial point: What is the timing of this prophesied change from mortal to immortal?



[edit on 5/9/2009 by Locoman8]



posted on May, 9 2009 @ 01:33 AM
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Verses 22 and 23 are clear on the matter: "... In Christ all shall be made alive [resurrected], ... those who are Christ's [Christians] at His coming." Paul said nothing to the Corinthians of anything like a snatching away before Christ actually comes, and he used no language that might imply a near approach by Christ in lieu of the second coming.

Paul provides more specifics about the timing. The prophesied change to spirit will occur at "the last trumpet" (verse 52), language similar to that used in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. What is the significance of the sounding of a trumpet at Jesus' return and the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

A trumpetlike instrument was used "in early times chiefly, perhaps exclusively, for warlike purposes. It gave the signal 'to arms' ... [and] warned of the approach of the enemy ... [It] was heard throughout a battle ... and sounded the recall ... Afterward it played an important part in connection with religion. It was blown at the proclamation of the Law ... and at the opening of the Year of Jubilee ... heralded the approach of the Ark ... [It] hailed a new king ... and is prophetically associated with the Divine judgment and restoration of the chosen people from captivity" (International Standard Bible Encylopaedia, electronic database, 1996, "Music").

The trumpet mentioned in Paul's epistles to the Corinthians and Thessalonians is the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15-18—the last trumpet, which announces the second coming. The dead in Christ are resurrected, living Christians are changed to spirit, and Jesus Christ returns to earth—all at the same time.

Attempting to read into a few words in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 the concept of a near coming before the second coming and a different time line for the resurrection prophesied to occur at the second coming is not "rightly dividing the Word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).

The rapture theory is in conflict with the Scriptures.

"One will be taken . . ."
In their eagerness to uphold belief in the rapture, supporters use various prophecies that speak of Christ's return to bolster their belief in the rapture. They reason that their interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires Christians to be in a constant state of readiness for their unannounced removal by Christ.

Prophecies of the second coming are not in doubt. What is in doubt is the application of these messages to their forced interpretation of a precoming.

One such prophecy is Matthew 24:36-44. It starts with "But of that day and hour [of the second coming] no one knows" and ends with "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." The point of this passage is the need for Christians to be prepared for the second coming.

However, some will lift verses 40 and 41 out of context and use them to support belief in a rapture. You will probably recognize the verses immediately: "Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left." If one ignores that the context of these verses talks about the second coming, they may seem to lend credence to the rapture.

But it is unsound theology to interpret any verses out of context. In addition, the understanding of any reference must agree with the teaching of the rest of the Bible.

In the context of this passage, Christ makes plain the fact that no one will know the exact timing of His coming (notice that Christ repeatedly refers to His coming, not a supposed near approach). His warning, in light of that fact, is that Christians should be constantly alert and spiritually prepared (verses 42, 44-51).

Now the understanding of verses 40 and 41 becomes clear. People who are not prepared will be caught off guard by the abruptness of His coming. Some who live or work close to others will be caught off guard while their companions will not be. Some will be "left"—not "left behind" after a secret rapture, but left unprepared.

Protection promised
Another reason offered by rapture theorists in defense of their interpretation of end-time prophecy is God's promise of protection. To be sure, God says to His Church through John: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

In Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus spoke of abbreviating the terrible crisis at the close of the age of man to spare His chosen people: "For there shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, not ever shall be. And unless these days were shortened, no flesh would be saved alive; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

But nothing in these references or in others concerning the protection of the saints indicates that they will be protected during this time in heaven. To the contrary, if there is any indication of a location, it is described in Revelation 12:14, where it is called simply "the wilderness." Even then, the same prophecy foretells that Satan will assault at least some of the people of God.

"And the dragon [Satan] was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (verse 17).

The focus of godly men and women needs to be on spiritual preparation and maturity. The faithful are promised that nothing, including tribulation, warfare and Satan's hostilities, can separate them from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39).

Being swept off to heaven to be sheltered from tribulation is nowhere detailed—or even hinted at—in the Scriptures.

Partial understanding
What reason did the theologian John Darby and others have for even considering such a doctrine as the rapture? An article on the Millennium in Unger's Bible Dictionary offers a plausible explanation. In the century before Darby, Daniel Whitby promulgated the philosophy of "postmillennialism" in England. "This interpretation maintains that present gospel agencies will root out evils until Christ will have a spiritual reign over the earth, which will continue for 1,000 years. Then the second advent of Christ will initiate judgment and bring to an end the present order" (1988).

It is reasonable to suspect that Darby's intent was to counter the false teaching that the actions of men could bring about the Kingdom of God—as well as the equally incorrect teaching that prophecies of a kingdom are only symbolic (a view called "amillennialism"). Darby believed, rightly, that Jesus Christ would return to earth to establish and rule over the Kingdom of God (called "premillennialism").

Regardless of his motivation, Darby departed from the Scriptures himself with his rapture theory. At least he accurately understood that Christ would return to reign on earth, which leads us to an important concluding point.

Meeting Christ in the air
Seeking to refute the accurate understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, one author asks, "If [Christ] is already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?" (Todd Strandberg, The Pretribulation Rapture, 1999, p. 2). That's an interesting question whose answer reinforces what we have already learned from the Bible about this much—misunderstood topic.

The answer lies in the meaning of the word translated "meet." Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says the word "is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. 'It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary' (Moulton, Greek Test. Gram., Vol. I, p. 14)" (1985, "Meet"). The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary adds in its notes for these verses that "when a king enters his city the loyal go forth to meet him ..."



posted on May, 9 2009 @ 01:40 AM
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How appropriate it is that His followers should rise to meet the King of Kings!

F.F. Bruce's International Bible Commentary adds: "To meet is used in the papyri of the official reception given to a visiting governor, whom his citizens escort into the city from which they have come to meet him" (1986, notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Another key question to address is "Where will Christ be?" After all, Paul tells us we will "always be with the Lord" after meeting Him (1 Thessalonians 4:17). An Old Testament prophet answers: "Behold, the day of the LORD is coming ... And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:1, 4).

Christ will not be in heaven after the second coming, but will be on earth—and so will the resurrected saints who meet Him.

Christians are resurrected from the dead or, if living at the time, changed to spirit at the last trumpet when Christ returns. They will meet Him in the air as an escort of honor as He returns to the Mount of Olives to rule the earth from Jerusalem. They are then destined to reign with Jesus Christ in His glorious kingdom (Revelation 20:6).



Do you see the problem with your theory? There is no full-proof scriptural basis for it. You always have to add man's reasoning for it to make sense in scriptural context. Your understanding and the OPs understanding of endtime events are completely out of sync with the bible's chronology. It has to be in order for the rapture theory to work. Don't anger yourself with this information. Apply it and research it. That's what I did. I use to be a pre-trib guy and was all into the "Left Behind" stories. This is nothing more than "mainstream" christianity pulling the flock further down the wide and broad path. Don't be one of those "lost sheep" friend. Deny ignorance. Isn't that the theme of these message boards?



posted on May, 9 2009 @ 03:13 AM
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It's a shame rapture folk won't debate this issue any further than what you have presented.


Please keep in mind I wanted to walk away from this post.




Jesus said that hatred was the same as murder so don't hate on me.


I would like to remind you of what you reminded me of.




theologian John Darby


Never even heard of this guy until you brought him up. As for the left behind series, heard of it but never have read them. Everything I know about the rapture I learned on my own. Picked up the bible at 16 "I'm 33 now." and self tought myself with a King James Bible, and a Strongs Concordence. Will just have to agree to disagree.

[edit on 9-5-2009 by dthwraith]

[edit on 9-5-2009 by dthwraith]

[edit on 9-5-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on May, 9 2009 @ 03:45 AM
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(1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

(2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

(3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

(4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

(5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).


(1) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

(2) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent…there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

(3) In describing the Tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6-19 nowhere mentions the church. During the Tribulation—also called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).


[edit on 9-5-2009 by dthwraith]




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