Creepy conclusion: We are alone!

I agree that the evidence of extraterrestrial beings visiting Earth is not compelling. Nevertheless, to claim that there is no extraterrestrial life in the Universe is premature.

First of all, there are supposedly 70 sextillion stars in the known Universe, which is a whole lot of stars. We know that at least one star system produced life. That would be us. Life on Earth *MAY* be unique, but experience has repeatedly shown us that the Earth is not unique, that we don't have a special place in the Universe. The Sun doesn't move around the Earth. The Universe doesn't even move around the Sun. We're just an ordinary planet, moving around an ordinary star, in an unremarkable galaxy. Claiming life here is unique is as reasonable as claiming the planets move around the Earth.

We don't have enough information to make a decision about whether life exists anywhere else in the Universe, and whether any such life led to other intelligent beings. We have no evidence to support the notion that there is intelligent life elsewhere. We also don't have evidence to show it doesn't exist elsewhere. The only rational conclusion is to say, "we don't know". That is all that the evidence supports. We simply don't know.

Saying that we don't know isn't the same thing as saying we know there is no other intelligent life. In order to know that, we'd have to check each planet associated with each star. That would take a very long time. If you could check a million stars a second, it would still take over a billion years to accomplish this, so don't hold your breath.

Until then, all we can say is that we haven't discovered any evidence of other intelligent life. Unless, of course, we *do* discover such evidence, in which case we don't have to keep checking the stars.

As someone else pointed out, lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. We don't have enough information to form a valid conclusion.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by jdm2104
I can understand the points you make, however....

"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

. . . however. . .

"absence of evidence is all we have"

In other words, they might be out there, but evidence is still woefully lacking. But we knew that.

Which makes this whole thread redundant and useless. All it concludes in is asking the same old question.

Originally posted by jdm2104
I can understand the points you make, however....

"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

Nobody ever says that when they have evidence.

Prosecutor: "This video tape and confession, your honor, proves the defendants guilt!"

Defense: "Your honor, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. My client is innocent, we just don't have the evidence to prove it!"

Unfortunately, that phrase doesn't come in handy when you use critical thinking skills.

It's nothing more than a sign that the subject matter being discussed has no real evidence for it, and is only a pathetic appeal to the fact that unrestricted negatives can never be proven either way.

When the burden of proof fails you: "Uh, just because I don't have evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist!"

It only works in the realm of wishful thinking.



[edit on 20-4-2009 by logician magician]

reply to post by logician magician


I guess it depends on what you'd accept as evidence. It's funny you should argue from a legal analogy. In the American 'Justice' system people have been convicted on far less evidence (anecdotal evidence even!) than this field has obtained and presented.

On that note, I remember an analogy my college logic professor used to summarize our judicial system, specifically lawyers...

A man is walking down a dark street to his car. While walking he fumbles in his pockets for his keys, which slip out and clank on the pavement somewhere near him. He begins looking for them in the dark. Along comes another person and spots this man searching all around. The person offers his assistance and immediately begins looking for the keys under a street light further down and across the way. The man with the lost keys asks why he is looking so far down the street when he knew he'd dropped his keys near his car. The man replies, "Maybe the keys are by your car, but it's best to search where the light is better."

In short, logic and 'justice' are often at odds. Especially when considering 'evidence'.

Originally posted by Flux8
reply to post by logician magician

 

I guess it depends on what you'd accept as evidence. It's funny you should argue from a legal analogy. In the American 'Justice' system people have been convicted on far less evidence (anecdotal evidence even!) than this field has obtained and presented.

Just like the legal system can 'convict' people with anecdotal evidence, individuals can 'convict' something to be true based on anecdotal evidence as well. If the Jury or Judge simply believes or wants to believe that someone is guilty or innocent - what is to stop them besides their own integrity or benefit of the doubt?

Same goes for the person who believes that Aliens are visiting Earth because they just got through watching a silly movie on YouTube - the only difference is that the repercussions of the decisions are usually vastly more serious in the case of the legal system and the fact that there really isn't much on the line, so it follows that any decision to belief in an innocuous scenario such as a UFO can be based on even more anecdotal evidence that would be applicable in a court of law.

On that note, I remember an analogy my college logic professor used to summarize our judicial system, specifically lawyers...

A man is walking down a dark street to his car. While walking he fumbles in his pockets for his keys, which slip out and clank on the pavement somewhere near him. He begins looking for them in the dark. Along comes another person and spots this man searching all around. The person offers his assistance and immediately begins looking for the keys under a street light further down and across the way. The man with the lost keys asks why he is looking so far down the street when he knew he'd dropped his keys near his car. The man replies, "Maybe the keys are by your car, but it's best to search where the light is better."

In short, logic and 'justice' are often at odds. Especially when considering 'evidence'.

I can't tell if you are drawing ironic parallels on accident or not.

As we can see on ATS, the light is obviously "better" on YouTube and conspiracy sites isn't it? The case of ET is lighted with the light of lies, skewed interviews, made up quotes, doctored/faked footage, hoaxes, etc... That's where everyone looks.

Of course, it's clear and pretty in the light - it gives the illusion that you might find your truth there.

... but you won't.

No, you won't find your keys under the light.

You'll only find them in your hand, once you've picked them up.

Originally posted by logician magician

As we can see on ATS, the light is obviously "better" on YouTube and conspiracy sites isn't it? The case of ET is lighted with the light of lies, skewed interviews, made up quotes, doctored/faked footage, hoaxes, etc... That's where everyone looks.

Of course, it's clear and pretty in the light - it gives the illusion that you might find your truth there.

... but you won't.

No, you won't find your keys under the light.

You'll only find them in your hand, once you've picked them up.

I'm going to weigh in agreeing with this. Thanks for the lucidity.

I don't dismiss the possibility of intelligent life somewhere in the universe. It may even be living among us in a form we neither recognize or have the ability to communicate with. It could be a complex energy field, an integrated computer programming that has achieved self-awareness, the insect world for that matter.

Image templates that came out of the 40s of thin little men with bug eyes hot-rodding in metallic saucer-shaped vehicles have shaped our expectations more than we think. If they have traveled for centuries from millions of light years away to visit, why have they been hovering in the driveway for 60 years?

There are unexplainable events and sightings. We mould them to conform to what we can readily comprehend. In the past, the inexplicable was thought to be gods, demons, angels, ghosts, or whatever superhuman entities were current.

The best documented sighting of an unidentifiable occurrence in the sky was in Portugal in 1917, when at 50,000 people witnessed a dazzling display of lights and movements for half an hour. It was recorded and millions believe it to have been a manifestation of the Virgin Mary, which coincides with the belief system of a Catholic country. This was before aviation and science fiction had penetrated the collective consciousness.

I tend to be critical of UFOlogists because I feel they have muddied the waters of UFO documentation and data collection irretrievably. So many conmen, attention seekers, delusionals, have added to and embellished an out of control historical record. It's difficult to separate what may have occurred from what is thought to have occurred. And then there's the outright fakery.

As I remark often, if there are extraterrestrial among us, they really need to find much better PR agents.



Mike



[edit on 21-4-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by Armour For Victor
reply to post by Graphix10

 

True, and while were talking about being advance on a scale that big , then why search for a planet when you can just find a sutable planet and provide it with whatever materiels or compunds it needs for the planet to sustain life. Or better yet why not create one. Its easy to assume that once you give this "extraterristerial life a life span of over a billion years, then the limits of their technology are well, limitless. One cant say that such life forms are evolved enough for said technology to locate a planet but then give it a limit until it reaches desirable limits.


Peace!

First of all, we can't presume to understand the intentions of an alien race. Obviously if they've reached this planet, they have far superior technology and knowledge of travel and star systems, etc. Maybe water planets like ours only pop up every hundred million light years. We don't know. Maybe they are fascinated with our culture or curious about our emotions. Perhaps they are much less evolved but have far more capable, creative minds. Perhaps they discovered an energy source much earlier than we did, and advanced much faster. Imagine if we had discovered electricity 1500 years ago...where would we be today?

My point is, you can't make a presumption on intention that we know nothing about.

But let's agree on this...if they made it here, they have a supremely advanced understanding of technology, even if they are in a neighboring star system. Agreed?

[edit on 21-4-2009 by Graphix10]

Originally posted by jdm2104
I can understand the points you make, however....

"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

That is a one liner but I know what you are saying but still .....................

"extraordinary claims ask for extraordinary proof"

I appreciate the skeptical views on this thread, but do you guys even consider credibility? I mean, do you just throw it out?

First of all, let's simplify this whole thing. If you feel like it, throw out every abduction case you've ever heard of. Simply throw them out. We'll call them all crazy or we'll make an attachment to some known condition like 'sleep paralysis' and explain it away. Okay, gone.

Fuzzy video and pictures...gone. Amateur photographers..whatever you want to call it. Gone.

Civilian eyewitness testimony. Satellites, shooting stars, swamp gas, whatever. Gone.

Crazy Insider's and Famous Cases. Bob Lazar, Leer, Travis Walton, Betty and Barney Hill, etc. Discount them all.

What's left...?

Pilots, govt and commercial. Okay, I'm sure they make mistakes and misidentify aerial phenomena and all, to an extent. But if you look a little closer you'll find thousands...yes thousands of reported DoD and civilian sightings which include black box conversations and up-close and personal visual and radar confirmations.

How do we simply dismiss this? Can we just say that all these accounts are hoaxes or misidentified phenomena? And if you listen to the accounts, everyone one of the govt/military personnel had their evidence taken away and were told never to speak of it again. Many were even threatened.

I served 8 years in the US military (4 years at an Air Base), and pilots don't just make up stories so they can throw away their integrity and credibility. They work too hard for that. It just doesn't happen.

This is a cover-up.



[edit on 21-4-2009 by Graphix10]

@UFOexisist

I'm sorry but this documentary is a joke!
Nazi flying disks are nothing more than an urban legend, disfunctioning
designs and prototypes.
If they really would have developed such things, they would have won the war. PERIOD.
All this BS about Nazi disks and Nazis here and Nazis there and Nazis hiding in my closet just to take over again is modern superstition.

Intellectuals, i.e. scientists (like Wernher von Braun) never were convinced Nazis. Perhaps they were patriots (right or wrong my country) but nothing more.
To say Wernher von Braun and his paper clip companions were hardcore Nazis who were brought to the US as bounty of war and then transformed the whole USA into a fourth Reich is total nonsense. That's why I don't like people like Jim Marrs.

But, back to the documentary.
Of course the military always tried and tries to build saucer-like crafts.
But till now it doesn't work. It doesn't have good aerodynamics, there is a too huge need of energy, where does it come from?
And finally, the use as a cover story. Has it really such a great worth?
At the begining perhaps, but now more and more people begin to see their own government and military as hostile. More and more people want to know more and go for the secret bases and take pictures and films.
So where is the benefit of that cover story anymore?

Andreas Epp had the idea of a flying disc in the war, but with conventional propulsion. And after the war he just worked on a vertical take-off propulsion nothing more. But the eso-ufologists make a myth out of it, Antarctica and so on. Total BS.

What about the millions of abductees? Is the CIA really able to make this all up? Incidents like the pilot had over Teheran or the other over Peru? Never the US Airforce can build crafts like that, which break the law of G-forces. Perhaps they built some saucer-shaped drones. But not real manned UFOs. The F117 and the B2 isn't saucer-shaped. And if the triangle UFOs (Aurora?) are US Airforce, they support it too, man-mades aren't saucer-shaped.

What about stories of people like Travis Walton and Jim Sparks?
They even met the visitors. Even if their stories sound fantastic, they are one of the abductees who sound totally credible to me.

Period.

[edit on 21-4-2009 by King Lear]

[edit on 21-4-2009 by King Lear]

[edit on 21-4-2009 by King Lear]

[edit on 21-4-2009 by King Lear]

Imagine a grain of sand. Now imagine all the grains of sand on the earth on all beaches and deserts. Now the first grain of sand is our solar system. The rest are all the solar systems in our galaxy NB our ONE Galaxy.

We humans have not yet managed to travel to one single adjacent grain of sand and some people already come to the conclusion that all those other grains of sand are lifeless. We haven't even got one single clear decent picture of all planets around the nearest star (excluding our sun of course;-))!!!!!!!!

I cannot express strongly enough how stupidly arrogant the assumption that we are alone is. We would need to visit several thousand solar systems just to get a VERY POOR !!!! sample size and more like tens of millions. In fact 2 planets with life (ours being one) in a sample of 10 million would mean our universe is teeming with life. The numbers are that vast.

Now to take the sand analogy one step further. You can also represent our galaxy with a single grain of sand all other grains all other galaxies.

So there we have it one grain of sand WITHIN a grain of sand.

reply to post by UFOexisist

We are living with 6 billion people not just the US, Such a conspiracy is impossible to keep.

I am sorry to crash your dreams, but this is the truth. And the truth sometimes hurt. I know life is boring but you have to face it if you want to know the truth.

I can certainly understand the frustration due to lack of evidence. Can lead one to conclusions like "they don't exist" or "it's all military planes."

My way of thinking is quite the opposite. There is evidence for the existence of something beyond mankind on Earth. What exactly that means I don't know and I'm not going to pretend to know.

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that the universe is really 15 billion years old. That is alot of time. For there to be another species out there who evolved completely independant from ourselves, yet have similar technologies approximately a few hundred years ahead of our own, is pretty far-fetched IMO.

Concerning this universe & "aliens," there is a much bigger possibility that:

1) Aliens are primitive organisms far far far beneath us on the totempole.
or
2) Aliens aren't just a few hundred years ahead of us, but perhaps a few hundred thousand. Or even a few hundred million.

Either one of these possibilities is much more likely than the "Star Trek scenario" where every species in the galaxy is roughly equal in terms of evolution (except for the Borg and a few others).

It goes without saying that if #1 is true we couldn't communicate with such an inferior species due not only to vast distance, but due to the evolutionary gap itself.

Likewise, if #2 is true, we probably wouldn't even know what to look for or what we were looking at if we saw it. It would be like a caveman trying to figure out what a bus is. It's just not possible.

As for keeping secrets from 6 billion people, I think you are gravely underestimating the psychological angles on all this alien stuff.

-SJ76

Originally posted by Graphix10


Pilots, govt and commercial. Okay, I'm sure they make mistakes and misidentify aerial phenomena and all, to an extent. But if you look a little closer you'll find thousands...yes thousands of reported DoD and civilian sightings which include black box conversations and up-close and personal visual and radar confirmations.

How do we simply dismiss this? Can we just say that all these accounts are hoaxes or misidentified phenomena? And if you listen to the accounts, everyone one of the govt/military personnel had their evidence taken away and were told never to speak of it again. Many were even threatened.

I served 8 years in the US military (4 years at an Air Base), and pilots don't just make up stories so they can throw away their integrity and credibility. They work too hard for that. It just doesn't happen.

This is a cover-up.

There is no denial even from those who are skeptical that something is happening. What is questioned is the assumption that Unidentified Flying Objects are proof of activities of extraterrestrials.


Mike

Originally posted by UFOexisist


The Military purposely made the story of aliens to hide their projects. And we are all falling into this crap. You believe of all those races and all the other crap of the Gov. Comm on. Use your sense . We are living with 6 billion people not just the US, Such a conspiracy is impossible to keep.

I am sorry to crash your dreams, but this is the truth. And the truth sometimes hurt. I know life is boring but you have to face it if you want to know the truth.

Note: edited OP's spelling

You aren't crashing my dreams, so you can rest a little easier. That said, what is the logic behind the military creating the alien phenomenon to disguise their black-op projects? Shouldn't they choose something a little less unsettling? Something that wouldn't challenge the fundamental beliefs of the vast majority of folk on this planet? Something that wouldn't turn the world upside down? They don't need to create ANYTHING. Just simply deny. It works.

On another note; I know how you're feeling, and I know why you felt the need to post this. It's easy to feel defeated as someone who believes in aliens, and of course it always feels great to come to SOME conclusion rather than no conclusion at all. I myself have been frustrated with the lack of evidence (though I wouldn't say there is NO evidence), and have often felt the desire to jump to one conclusion or another, but patience takes precedence.

I can't say one way or another what is going on, but I would argue that it's much too early to say "It's only the aliens" or "It's only the military". It's going to be an excruciating wait for those who don't take sides, but one day we will know.

there are to many things that happen in this World, or our reality, that prevent me from thinking perhaps we are alone in a sense, but we are far from understanding, just what it is we live in and what we represent. We only follow along the rules of what we are taught, being taught in our own intellect or own human nature, their is no other outside, force that teaches us how to be, besides the great books of religion, in which many of us, already refuse to beleive or even try understand, just saying its fable. So how could we even grasp or try to wrap our heads around things we do not understand? Until we can come to conclusions of that primary consciousness of man, is just a pretense of what we think. Man's way of thinking is based off of what is familiar. for instance the spectrum of colors, the tree's logistics, creativity, etc. etc. these are just examples of how we cope with this reality this life we truly do not understand, we just substitute what it is with what we cannot control, with the illusion of being alone, to maintain our stability in our evolution. Perhaps we are alone for this exact principal. Whatever the case, on the contrary of the OP's thoughts, their is still a vast well of knowledge we have not even begun to delve ourselves into. Practically it is because we are not enlightened enough, we are to busy trying to survive and hold up the civilization, or to busy trying to progress. Simply because this is what we have made important. Again, our government prob. does not know much more about paranormal activity's or UFO's, I am sure the little pieces they may have, are kept secret for the security of the state it would remain a secret. Yet the imagination and untapped parts of man, are projected in his church. Spiritualism perhaps may have significance in the UFO phenomenon. Either way, it really does not mean anything. What does it mean? the sun will rise tomorrow, and the world will turn, until we can maintain our survival and make our lives easier, or progress to where their is no hunger, or no war, or no evil horrible things happening in the World, how can we make time, to look for Alien life somewhere else, and how appalling we would look to advanced civilizations anyhow. Just imagine if they could see our porn, how primitive we look.. Or our violence, viewing that alone would not be welcoming. I don't see a contact anytime soon. Not in the state of man at this time. Just saying if their were ALIENS. So yes perhaps we are trully alone.. I think we should be fascinated yet at the same time, we need to try to work on making our World a better place. Perhaps with progression we could have a contact. If anything we can make our future better, yet finding a peace for all, is almost an impossible request.. utopia, I believe has proven never to exist, many times..

edited...

[edit on 21-4-2009 by Adrifter]

Originally posted by logician magician
As we can see on ATS, the light is obviously "better" on YouTube and conspiracy sites isn't it? The case of ET is lighted with the light of lies, skewed interviews, made up quotes, doctored/faked footage, hoaxes, etc... That's where everyone looks.

Is that where everyone looks? Sounds like one big hasty generalization. Some people I know who have had their own experiences (some of which I've experienced with them, and some who's credibility is extremely high IMO) have no outside interest in following the UFO/ET phenomenon. They don't search for 'evidence' on the internet or in books or TV shows or other's stories. They seek anonymity, not notoriety. They're just not that interested in this kind of stuff, but still they had they're own experiences.

In short, it seems that some people have reached the conclusion from reasoning that because some UFO/ET evidence have been confirmed hoaxes or mis-identifications then all UFO/ET evidence must be hoaxes or mis-identifications. Using that line of reasoning, one shouldn't go see a doctor when feeling extremely ill, because it is known and proven that some doctor's diagnosis have been wrong, therefore all doctor's diagnosis must be wrong.

Originally posted by logician magician
Of course, it's clear and pretty in the light - it gives the illusion that you might find your truth there.

... but you won't.

No, you won't find your keys under the light.

You'll only find them in your hand, once you've picked them up.

No... no you won't. If you decide the only place the keys should be is in that 'light', and you choose not to look in other places outside of that light, then you won't find your keys at all and have to find another way home.

reply to post by UFOexisist


what ever,thats easy for you to say,I saw one and it was not of this earth!
YOU shouldn't believe all the Gov.tell us

Originally posted by Flux8

it seems that some people have reached the conclusion from reasoning that because some UFO/ET evidence have been confirmed hoaxes or mis-identifications then all UFO/ET evidence must be hoaxes or mis-identifications.

I don't doubt people have experiences as they claim. I don't doubt there are Unidentified Flying Objects.

But the assumption by many is that these are evidence or proof of extraterrestrials.

Again I ask an avoided question, why is an unidentified phenomenon in the sky, shared by tens of thousands in 1917, considered a Miracle. But phenomena from the 1940s onward is generated by ET?


Mike



[edit on 21-4-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by Flux8

In short, it seems that some people have reached the conclusion from reasoning that because some UFO/ET evidence have been confirmed hoaxes or mis-identifications then all UFO/ET evidence must be hoaxes or mis-identifications. Using that line of reasoning, one shouldn't go see a doctor when feeling extremely ill, because it is known and proven that some doctor's diagnosis have been wrong, therefore all doctor's diagnosis must be wrong.

It would be more realistic to say that most UFO/ET evidence have been confirmed hoaxes or mis-identification and the rest have not been confirmed hoaxes. Not only have they not been confirmed hoaxes, but they have not been confirmed to be real. In fact, none have been confirmed to be real. This means they are nothing more than stories. If they were anything more than a story then they could be confirmed real.

Obviously, I mean to say that nothing has yet been confirmed in case you forgot already.

reply to post by Graphix10


I completly agree. 100% I was refering to your earlier remarks on finding a planet with life forms. And your comments make sense to me.

Peace!

[edit on 21-4-2009 by Armour For Victor]