Barak Obama discloses Bush 'torture' methods including use of insects

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by RKWWWW
You were a POW in 1992?

Yep, hard to believe, huh ?

I see that you did not expect that someone on this forum experienced atrocities of war, genocide and torture ?

Yep, I was water boarded, beaten up at least few times a week, interrogated at least twice a week, my had was banged against the wall, I was doing hard labor work building the front line for them in the path of the bullets from the other side, walking through the mine fields for them, getting their wounded and dead from the battlefield, and being fed only few times a week and getting some water once a day.

Beaten up some more and water boarded some more. Shooting through the thin aluminum walls with AK 47's almost every night while we were sleeping with few of us getting killed every time.

I really, really know how it feels, do you ???

Whereabouts did this happen and who captured you. Also were you an American citizen at the time ?

reply to post by rogue1


Lol, no, I was not American citizen at the time...

It was in Bosnia, southern part, started 1992, it was a very, very sad, wild and unforgettable ride

International Red Cross from Geneva were finally let to visit concentration camp after almost 8 months of it's total isolation, they saved my ass and I will thank them for it to the rest of my life

God bless the Red Cross. A friend of mine is a SEAL. His job was countersniping snipers who were targeting the red cross. apparently some real a holes were shooting red cross workers and women and children when they would go up to the red cross trucks to receive water and food.

The SEALS tried to do their best to protect the red cross workers and the women and children receiving aid from them. he said only extremely nice things about the Int. Red Cross.

Sorry to hear about the tragedy that you experienced and suffered through.

Torture by anybody is bad juju. All sides (countries) participate in it and it shows a spiritual weakness that human beings collectively still have not grown out of. And we wonder why aliens won't simply land in the park and greet the human race directly. sounds pretty smart to avoid us directly when looked at from a different perspective.

uh, the information about torture methods failed to mention being sodomized by a nightstick and flown half way around the world to some random dungeon to be beaten and drugged for weeks at a time.


[edit on 18-4-2009 by KotovSyndrome]

Originally posted by jerico65
So you're saying that anyone we capture should be put in a US established prison in the US, given a lawyer and tried in a US court of law? Given every single right that a US citizen would be given?

See, this is where it gets ridiculous.

I can't find the thread, but I once argued against someone in the past, when he claimed that the 'operations' in Afghanistan and Iraq are technically not wars. Whatever...

If they are wars, then captured prisoners are POWs and should be treated as such, under the Geneva Convention.

If they are not wars, then captured prisoners should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty, in a court of law. If they are not wars, then what duristiction do US forces have taking prisoners, on foreign soil, in the first instance?

I'll go along with the presumption that the US is at war (against terra). So, captured prisoners are POWs, who have rights.

As I've said before, US troops captured by AQ sure don't get those rights and no one is complaining about that.

If the US forces weren't inside Afghanistan, then they wouldn't have to worry about their troops being captured - would they?

Of course it's not right that US troops are captured and tortured. So why don't the US do the right thing and abandon their occupation? Defend against Al-CIAda on US soil, instead of smashing up the Middle East for more profitable ventures.

What would be acceptable measures of torture, when it comes to our enemies? I have seen and heard of tortures involving electrocution, severing limbs, scalding, burning, branding, ect., compared to the methods used by some nations, these methods seem pretty tame. So what other ways could the US government interogate war criminals or captured prisoners?

BTW, I do not neccessarily condone ANY torture, but it seems to be a neccessary strategy at times.

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by RKWWWW
You were a POW in 1992?

Yep, hard to believe, huh ?

I see that you did not expect that someone on this forum experienced atrocities of war, genocide and torture ?

Yeah that's incredible. Literally incredible. What are the odds here that one would encounter a true, first hand story of torture in a thread about torture? Of course it could be true. Perhaps part of your treatment for Post Traumaic Stress is to waste time on the internet.

reply to post by 5thElement

Oh sorry 5th Element, I had thought you were a soldier POW and my previous comments to you were made under that false assumption. Still, thank you for opening up and sharing what you went through to help enlighten the rest of us. My mom's famivly survived a similar hell to what it sounds like you lived through. And my dad was a Viet Nam vet. Both of their experiences have helped shape my views on this subject.

reply to post by tezzajw


Well technically our congress never declared war on a country so therefore...

Im not knowledgeable enough to say whether or not the enemy combatants have the right to be treated as POWs but again if they arent POWs they dont have the US constitution backing them up.

It says right in my US passport that if i denounce my citizenship or fight against the US (or just for someone else) i give up my US constitutional rights.

I cant imagine that people who arent citizens to start with and then get caught red handed trying to blow up american soldiers would be even close to having US constitutional rights...

The question is...what do we do with them if they arent POWs and they arent US citizens

I would say just enough food to stay alive and water... Other than that we dont owe you anything AND you made the choice to engage in activities that landed you here

reply to post by detachedindividual

Exactly. Torture is never going away. As long as there is war, there will be torture involved no matter who's dishing it out. Barack's ministry will do the same thing under closed doors in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by RKWWWW
Of course it could be true. Perhaps part of your treatment for Post Traumatic Stress is to waste time on the internet...

Lol, believe it or not, unfortunately (for me) it's 100% true...

I had fought my PTSD daemons and they finally left me alone some 6 years ago, which I'm thankful for

May none of you never, ever go through what I did...There was an only one single positive consequence from it all: I appreciate my freedom 1000 times fold now than I was before

reply to post by SheepleFlavored


Oh, I was actually POW as a soldier (MP), I was captured on the battlefield but transfered later in concentration camp where the civilians were...

Wow Im shocked to see that anybody could "Justify" the use of torture period.

Morally and ethicaly there is simply no justification

If we cannot abide by the tennants and precepts of our own constitution then how can we be any different than those we decry.

Interrogation is a part of war, deal with it. I believe the issue here is not that certain "interrogation techniques" are being put into place, it's who they're being used on. As a soldier in the MI field, we need results, and we need them fast. The only way to get results is by getting a little rough in the interrogation techniques - however, the interrogator is not authorized to do certain things. Generally, interrogators have to go through SERE school part C, which is the actual survival and evasion phase. At the end, they are captured and treated as enemy combatants, and are pretty much tortured to see how far they can bend before they break. They are waterboarded, they are deprived of sleep, sensory deprivation, and they even have to sign waivers allowing for the breaking of bones... The interrogators have all been through what they are authorized to do, they know exactly what they are doing.

It's the unauthorized interrogation methods that are out of line, and it's the interrogation of people that may not actually know anything that is out of line. The only thing they need to reform, in my opinion, is their criteria of who gets "tortured" and who doesn't. Someone they can verify as high ranking AQIZ member, sure, go ahead. Some random dude off the street that fits a generic description? Notsomuch.

This is war, it isn't pretty. You are completely naive if you believe that interrogation has not provided valuable intelligence used to protect our troops on the ground and lead to victory in many conflicts. Say what you will, it's a necessary evil.

reply to post by Highground

I suppose you'd know better than I on this. I'll only know and understand this subject from the point of view of being on the receiving end of abusive treatment by a parent demented from surviving war related civilian torture. I'll have to concede the point that some caught red-handed may need to be handled roughly within the limits you described by people who have gone through the training you decribed. I also agree, and this is where I have a problem with what has reportedly gone on at Gitmo, that these extreme techniques can't be applied to just anyone that got rounded up based on tenuous suspicions. That is what I want most off all to be ended. Well anyway there is a job out there that needs to be done and yes, I admit as a civilian I may be naive on how it best needs to be done. But as a citizen who votes and has some input to my elected leaders, I do have to open my eyes and ears and hear all sides of this ugly issue. I do feel responsible for what goes on in my name and my country's name. So now you people who really know, go ahead and talk. I will bow out for now and lurk and learn on this topic. Thanks!

reply to post by SheepleFlavored

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. It's not the actual interrogation that bothers me, it's the people it's being done to. I have no idea how it would be done, or how it'd come into play, but there needs to be a system to determine who actually is interrogated and who isn't. As I said, some guy that "looks" like a terrorist shouldn't be treated the same way someone who was shooting at troops from a house filled with SVIEDs.

Originally posted by purehughness
The fact that the TORTURERS are so incredibly disrespectful makes me mad!

I'm sorry, but it's not a interrogator's job to be respectful. Do you want them to punch the prisoner and then give them a bandaid? Slap them then apologize for it? To be "respectful", they'd obviously lose any ground they had.

The moral values are controversial and we'll never all be on the same side, but in times of war "you gotta do what you gotta do."

In a recent article in the NY Times reports that Khalid Shaikh Mohamed the self-described planner of 9/11 , was waterboarded 183 times.www.nytimes.com...

Well, hell.

Leave it to me to go up against conventional wisdom as frequently posted here on ATS.

5th Element, I'm very sorry for what you went through. Let me say right out of the gate that one man's torture may be another man's coercion.

The "rules" of torture do not apply to non-uniformed combatants. Never. Non-uniformed combatants, upon engaging, are non-entities. Legally they don't exist. Legally, any person can have a summary judgement and summary execution.

If one wishes, he can elect to use any interrogation techniques that he may deem appropriate, squeeze for information, and then execute them - on the spot.

The "rules" only apply to uniformed combatants and civilians. A non-uniformed combatant is not the equivalent of a civilian.

There is a novice mistake that torture does not provide accurate information. That's true if you don't know what the hell you're doing.

You can get the information accurately and quickly if you really want to. It's not pretty, but no one is physically harmed, either.

I've seen some **** that ruined my supper during interrogations, but damn, they are effective if done professionally. Everyone has a breaking point. The sooner you reach it, the sooner you can get on with your business.

And now Obama is a criminal, ha. Arrest his ass and turn him over to the UN for prosecution and sentencing.

I wonder what will become of THIS!

Say, maybe China will implement trade sanctions against us, lol. "No more Wal-Mart goodies for USA!" (yeah, right, that will be the day)

[edit on 20-4-2009 by Divinorumus]

reply to post by L.HAMILTON


People need to get real. Standing for 10 hours is Torture? Then the DMV should be brought up on charges! Not allowing them to sleep for 2 days? I went three in the military, so I guess they should be charged too.

Want to REALLY torture them and get the info you want? Make them watch a 24 hour Best of Screech Saved By The Bell Marathon! They'll tell you anything you want!