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Pirate Bay co-founders lost

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posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 12:59 AM
I know I'm stealing it when I download it...

Do you?

... or are you just trying to rationalize your criminal tendencies so your ego doesn't take a hit?

Let's see someone take $10 dollars from your paycheck every week and see how much you enjoy it even though your not "really taking a hit"...

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 01:12 AM
So much misinformation. I'm really starting to believe this 2012 stuff ... by the time the year rolls around we're all gonna be too stupid to avoid killing ourselves.

Read up on the technology before you make claims. The issue never was for or against piracy. They took TPB to court trying to prove that they were the cause for this. They are not, torrents are seeded and ran solely by the users.

I download music, I purchase music, I'm a musician. My personal feelings with torrents are irrelevant in this case ... the fact is they are being considered accessories to a crime that is being committed by end-users with software that's not in any way affiliated with TPB!

I can't believe how many people a day astound me with their ignorance (I'm only buying a Japanese car because American cars aren't reliable! I'm not buying a Toshiba laptop because their batteries explode! etc etc).

Us serfs have a wealth of information and sometimes it's a bad thing. If someone reads on the internet TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD! TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD!TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD! TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD! TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD! TORRENTS ARE USEFUL TRANSFER MECHANISMS AND DONT ALWAYS CONTAIN COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD! TORRENTS ALWAYS=BAD! ... what do you think the average person is gonna think? Hell I'm putting the finishing touches on my first CD and I am going to purposely seed the crap out of it on all torrent sites I can find. Forget the CD, I want someone to come to my show or buy a shirt.

I kinda want to go back into the matrix and not know all this stuff because I can't even a logical conversation about current topics with my own family members (Conficker is gonna destroy our computer!!!)

[edit on 4/18/2009 by Fiverz]

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Power_Semi
Yes, there are ebook versions of my books, which is what is on the torrent sites. Some of them show downloads of a few thousand times, which at £9.99 = a lot of money that I've been robbed of.

This used to be my income.

If you all feel it's okay to help yourselves to the fruits of someone elses labours, then how would you feel if you go pick up your pay check at the end of the month only to be told that your bosses decided to share it out amongst themselves.

I bet you wouldn't think sharing was so great then, would you?

No, the boss would have to determine that you would not have been paid anyway in order to pass your money around. Because not everyone who downloads your book would have purchased it in the first place, hence you didn't lose any profit. You don't lose any tangible product in order to lose profit from those who would already purchase your book. And the likelihood is that if someone still, after reading it, does not purchase it then they would not have done so in the first place.

Your loss is not tangible. You cannot place a dollar value on what you didn't sell, simply because someone took an interest in it.

If you were to end up with less product to sell due to someone downloading your book, then you would have an argument. No one is physically stealing your books from the store. Therefore, you have no way to determine actual loss based on downloads from those who would otherwise NOT purchase it.

As the poster above said, more often than not, it helps boost sales blockbuster movies and other forms of media, because most people want quality. And you don't get the same feeling sitting in your bedroom watching your 21" monitor even with surround sound, as you do going to the theater. I know that is the case for me. Or maybe I have a 17" and crappy USB stereo speakers, who can tell !

Most people want the glossy booklets with their dvd's and latest CD's. Most people like to OWN the stuff available on torrent sites. Heck, some people even feel obliged to pay for work that is worth it.

And to be honest, attitudes like yours really don't make those who don't care a hoot about your loss of profit, blink an eye. Those who would have purchased your book, still will. Those that wouldn't are not going to be convinced by your argument "Find them and fine them all!!!" nor let it sway their actions in the least.

The harder something is to get, the more people will put effort into getting it. That's just the nature of things.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 04:37 AM
reply to post by PrisonerOfSociety

I would guess on half the time at most, but you never know since the politicians are involved even if it's not official. It will probabely be Carl Lundström that has to pay the whole stack of money, since he's the only one with a big capital.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 05:48 AM

Originally posted by logician magician
I know I'm stealing it when I download it...

Do you?

... or are you just trying to rationalize your criminal tendencies so your ego doesn't take a hit?

Let's see someone take $10 dollars from your paycheck every week and see how much you enjoy it even though your not "really taking a hit"...

Straw man arguments.

This imagined $10 is not going to buy me a dinner or a case of beer, unless someone was actually going to spend that $10 to buy my product.

So if 10000000000000 people INTEND to buy my product but don't, I do not suddenly lose 10000000000000 x $$$ value in revenue.

It does not work that way.

However, if 1 person who would otherwise have not been motivated to purchase my product, downloads and enjoys it, then seeks to purchase a quality copy - I win.

*sigh* people need to think about how it all works, radios have done this for decades. Giving away free samples of (that over time can indeed be shown to be complete sets of) music, in order to entice further purchases from the artist.

It's not rocket surgery.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:01 AM
That is a rather typical argument for this type of theft. Its like a kleptomaniac walking into a shop and stealing random objects. Does it matter that they wouldn't of paid for them anyway?

I think people need a general re-education on the concept of theft of intellectual property.

People haven't stopped listening to Music, but they have stopped paying for it, that much is obvious.

The radio stations (here in Europe anyway) pay the artist for the right to play their tracks. In fact anywhere that plays music has to pay.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Marek]

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:13 AM
reply to post by badw0lf

Complete agreement with your post, and the answers you gave to the poster whining about his pirated ebook.

I also have an ebook that I wrote pirated on TPB. Good for them. Glad I could give something back to the community that gifts me so much.

In fact, my ebook usually has several hundred seeders, so I guess it's quite popular. I take that as an acknowlegement of the work I put into it

I'm certainly not stupid enough to think that all the people that have downloaded it would have bought it from my site

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:19 AM
reply to post by RogerT

That is your choice, good for you.
But do you not think people should have a choice as to whether they give their own work away or not?

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:23 AM
That depends.

I believe all information/knowlege belongs to humanity as a whole. Intellectual property is abhorrent to me.

I have no problem charging for providing access or some other service, but pretending you own information is insane IMO

[edit on 18/4/09 by RogerT]

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Power_Semi
If you download copyrighted material from torrents then you are a THIEF - PERIOD!

I hope they get the ISPs to log anyone who uses a torrent and fine them all.

I absolutely agree with the first part of this. If you DL copyrighted material without paying for it you are stealing it. Sure, lots of folks say that they are simply "reviewing" it, and if they delete it afterward I can almost go for that. Provided they actually go buy the official release if they want to use ANY part of it.

Now the second part I struggle with. Let's say that a band allows its fans to tape their concerts for the purpose of trading them- e.g. The Grateful Dead. Back in the day, you'd have to send your tapes through the mail, maybe never getting what you were trading for. With torrents, the process becomes much easier. The band is losing nothing because it is not an official release.

People who would sell those recordings (bootleggers are thieves too), lose their potential customers because the recordings can be gotten for free very easily.

Stealing is bad, and the PB guys got what they deserved. People should be compensated for their hard work. Torrenting itself isn't bad, just how it sometimes gets used.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 08:53 AM
Darn I loved pirate bay~ I didnt think there was anything wrong with what they did. I know people will complain about that but what is wrong with sharing? Everyone is so money hungry anymore, what about the little man who cant afford to buy those things?

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 08:59 AM
Much as I love a bit of piracy, these guys had to know something like this was coming their way. Hoping to get out of it on a technicality like, providing links instead of content is just going to blow way over the luddite-judge's head.

They had plenty of time to duck their heads behind the parapet, they should've quit back when all they were getting were empty threat cease and desist letters.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Mulberry
reply to post by Marek

There is not difference in me pressing link in google to to any other site, all give out information, and if one chooses to download it then it fair game its in the public relm.

this is so wrong i don't even know where to begin. Those of you who believe this, please, please, please familiarize yourself with the US copyright law, its all online. google it (US law IS in the public domain)

a digital work (mp3, video, game, photo, whatever) is someone's property. ONLY the original creator or its designee has the power to use, make a copy, distribute, or allow others to use or make copies or distribute those copies. PERIOD.

read the law!

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 09:54 AM

Originally posted by johnsky

And no, it's not so cut and dry... If I broadcast a song, via the internet or radio, the only difference that exists is on the receiving end... whether they store it or not.

A song broadcasted is a song broadcasted.
If a song is streamed over the net and listened to, it's assumed legal... but if the listener saves it then it becomes illegal?
For the broadcaster?

[edit on 18-4-2009 by johnsky]

its assumed legal, but that assumption is incorrect. If the broadcaster does not own the copyright, it is not legal to broadcast it. simple. when you buy a cd or an mp3 or a video or a dvd, you are not buying the copyright. you are licensing the use of the content. you do not have the right to redistribute it in any way.

read the copyright law

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:07 AM
With email accounts now being able to store 3 gigs and more, uploading and
sending music and movies to 1 or 1,ooo people is easy.
But good luck sueing Hotmail, Yahoo etc on that one.

Torrents aren't the only way that people can share what they've got, if they are so inclined.
So this lawsuit is meaningless and won't solve piracy.

Besides, I really don't get why music and movies are such sacred cows anyway. They are, after all, just like any other product.

The places I shop, they offer a no questions asked refund if you aren't completely satisfied on any goods EXCEPT dvds and cds which you can return only if they are faulty NOT if you're dissatisfied. Talk about a rip off.

I consider torrents and other free downloads a try before I buy, so I don't get ripped off.

I'm sure there are also plenty of people like me who have downloaded an album or movie and have deleted it straight away as it was total crap.
Even for free I don't keep them let alone share them.

I really can't see how that can be factored in as a lost sale, that is, unless you factor in the rip-off equation of not being able to do anything once you've bought a crap cd or movie that you can't return and get a refund on.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Flighty]

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Flighty

Besides, I really don't get why music and movies are such sacred cows anyway. They are, after all, just like any other product.

The places I shop, they offer a no questions asked refund if you aren't completely satisfied on any goods EXCEPT dvds and cds which you can return only if they are faulty NOT if you're dissatisfied. Talk about a rip off.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Flighty]

music, movies, and printed media are easily copied. this makes them different from other products. tell me how would one pirate a coffee maker? or a laundry detergent?

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:20 AM
I totally agree that as the law stands downloading from torrents is of course illegal - and if you do it, you are by definition committing a crime.

The point is though, this doesn't necessarily make it wrong. I think this is just a natural side effect of the technology. It's not like people are going to crazy lengths to steal - its as simple as 'click this button and watch a movie for free'... if someone sees that on their screen then why wouldn't they? Why pay for something when you don't have to?

Short of taking down the whole internet, this won't ever stop. The whole infrastructure to make this happen is de-localised around the whole globe on literally millions of computers in millions of homes. It can't be taken apart. In a sense, the people have spoken.

It's now up to the movie/music companies to evolve or die. As I said before, maybe they need to look at new revenue streams...

Music videos used to be distributed freely to help sell records. Music's free on the radio to 'help sell records'.

Maybe now the music itself should be free to help sell gig tickets...

And if the companies can't earn as much money as they used to? Tough. That's the business world. Sure that means maybe we won't have artists making new music anymore. But then if that happens, people won't have anything to download in the first place so it's just the system correcting itself.

This is just an example of archaic out of date copyright law being used to legislate something it really isn't suitable for - and in the process criminalising half the planet! Which is ridiculous... do we send the billion or so global torrent users to a giant prison on the moon? Or realise that the world has changed, media has changed, and react in a mature, well thought out way that can leave everyone happy.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:26 AM
And one final thought:

If I go-to the cinema and pay to see movies, I can maybe see two per month (after buying their over priced popcorn and soda I'm paying maybe £30 for two people to see a film).

If I download - I can watch as many as I like. 100's if I was so inclined.

The result if I DO download? My life is a hell of a lot richer, and Bruce Willis is still a gazillionaire living in a mansion...

And who knows, if I like his movie, maybe I'll designate one of my two monthly cinema trips to seeing his next release... so I guess he even makes some MORE money from my downloading...

So who exactly was hurt?

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:29 AM
reply to post by conwaylemmon

music, movies, and printed media are easily copied. this makes them different from other products. tell me how would one pirate a coffee maker? or a laundry detergent?

I can go into a store, buy a dress take it home, copy the design, take it back next day and get a refund. Just like movies and music, these are copywritten designs that can be easily copied too.
But it still doesn't mean I can't get a refund.
Products are products to the end user.
Whether it's a lawnmower or cd.
If you're not happy, you're not happy end of.

I would be way more inclined to invest a lot more money on new release albums if I could listen to them risk free.
The only way at the moment is through free downloads.
It's up to these industries to find convenient ways of making this happen for consumers cause $25 is a lot to invest in something not knowing what you'll be getting.

posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:40 AM
reply to post by Flighty

I kind of agree in some way - in that the onus is on the industry to solve this problem. Copy protection doesn't work. The digital world is different, they have to accept that, the fact that it costs literally nothing to copy one file one billion times and distribute it I think means most people see it as a victimless crime... and almost feel it's unfair to be charged say £10+ for an album or £10+ for a movie ticket - as you say, without really knowing what you're getting most of the time.

I think things that exist in the digital world almost pass into the public domain. I think all companies in the media business now have to focus on selling an experience. The cinema experience. The concert experience. As the sun is setting on them being able to make cash from selling DVD's and CD's, that's for sure...

ADDITION: I can see the problem for smaller artists, but then their stuff is often hard to find online for free anyway. But for larger artists, I think a lot of people don't buy the 'the album is so expensive so as to pay production costs etc' when they see the likes of N-yo or Black Cap Buster Rap Jam (?? :-s) driving around in his Escalade and living in his Malibu dream home 'crib'...

Clearly the consumer has been bent over for a long time and is only reacting - in essence saying, be more reasonable and fair or else we will collectively screw you and put you out of business.

They brought this on themselves...

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Dutty_Rag]

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