Another F-22 Class A

Looks like yet ANOTHER Class A accident involving an F-22. This one was on the ground, at Tyndall AFB, in Florida. I heard about last week, but they finally came out with the story. It involves a Canadian CF-18 and an F-22. They haven't released many details, but said the aircraft were parking in their shelters, and the F-22 clipped the Hornet, causing just over a million dollars in damage to the Raptor. As one PA spokesperson said (and I love this quote) "it was just barely a Class A". There was minor damage to the Hornet, and both aircraft will be repaired.

reply to post by Zaphod58

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Eh, that *SNIP*will buff out.

I wonder how this will reflect on someones EPR or OER? Might be a bit of a blemish!

Mod Edit: No profanity please

[edit on 4/18/09 by FredT]

reply to post by Zaphod58

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That's not even the best quote from that release. I love the 'jets don't taxi at NASCAR speeds' bit. My understanding is that the damage is relatively minor, even if expensive.

reply to post by WestPoint23

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Yeah, that was a good quote too. The damage may have been minor, and it may not take long to repair, but this is NOT setting up a good safety record for the aircraft to start with. Counting test aircraft, we have two crashes, one torn up engine from RAM coming off, one jammed canopy that had to be cut through, and a ground collision. All in the space of a small handful of years.

reply to post by Zaphod58

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Wasn't there also a pin that went through the engine, or was that another model? Still it been almost 4 years under 'combat' operations, some of the problems are clearly human error. From what I gather the F-16's and F-15 were not that much better.

If relatively minor damage to an F-22 is considered Class A in nature, then what about the B-2 Crash, is that AAA? Lol, these aircraft are running some sky high price tags indeed.

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen

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Class A is anything over $1M in damage. Stealth is expensive, because of the RAM. On some aircraft, you can't replace the RAM in small pieces, you have to replace it over the entire aircraft. The RAM on the F-117 initially was put on in pieces, and could be taken off in pieces. The last time they updated the coating, they put it on in one giant piece that covered the entire aircraft.

The really interesting question in all this is, where are they doing the repairs?



If minor scratches on the F-22 cannot be repaired in the field...

I would assume if it's non-flyable, they'll bring a depot team in to make it flyable, then take it to the depot to fix everything else. I would assume that it IS fixable in the field though, otherwise any kind of accident like this, and they're screwed.

Why do I find it ironic and not at all surprising that the first country to damage an F-22 is the Americans' best buddies?

One concern that this kind of brings up is the multiplication in the cost of repairs of cutting-edge aircraft. If something that causes "minor damage" to a CF-18 (which, given our budget, probably means it won't be fixed) deals over $1 000 000 dollars in damage to an F-22, what about the various dings and scrapes that it is going to incur during combat missions in a country that is actually harsh? I understand that they've done Red Flag, but I'm not sure how that stacks up to working out of substandard or partially cleared runways as in some combat areas.

Come to think of it, I wonder what the effect on RCS would be after the RAM gets dinged up or scratched by a few rock hits and some sand abrasion?

Just some random thoughts.

The only aircraft you would see flying out of substandard or partially cleared runways would be A-10s and MAYBE AV-8s. Fighters suffer engine damage from FOD at a prodigious rate if the ramp isn't clean. We used to call the F-16 a vacuum cleaner, because anything left on the ramp near it wasn't there after they went by.

The only model we have would be Operation Desert Storm and Operation Allied Force. In both cases F-117's & B-2's operated from secure friendly airbases close to the AOR (not so much the B-2). I do not see why it would be any different for a future scenario involving the F-22. Also, I believe the F-22's have a sort of self diagnosis system that lets the crew know when the signature has deteriorated to compromising levels. The only problems may come from having to make an emergency landing of sorts at less than world class facilities.

I'd love to know how a self-diagnosis tool that can detect chips in the external surfaces would work.


(Remember we are taking about chips on the mm scale)


Its possible the mechanics walk around it with some kinda radar gun... maybe - but self-diagnosis... nah, I don't believe it.

I'll ask around to see if my impression of how the system works is off or not. I do concede that a ground system is more plausible than an internal one.

Thats why it costs a lot to maintain and repair.
Too much labor man hours going into the F-22.

reply to post by Jezza

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It isn't just the F-22, or stealth. On June 15, 2003 F-16 88-0421 collided with 88-0516 on the ground in Qatar at approximately 10 knots. Aircraft 421 suffered significant damage to the radome and nose bulkhead, as well as the radar. Both aircraft suffered damage, one maintenance troop was injured, and several pieces of AGE were damaged. Both aircraft at the time were fully loaded, and they COULD have lost 7 aircraft if not for quick thinking maintenance troops.

ANY aircraft can have a major accident while on the taxiway, or parked, or at any other time. Yes the F-22 will be more expensive to repair, but it's not JUST the F-22 that can hurt a lot to fix after a ground collision.

Much as i like to take my petty stabs at the F-22 i suspect this is not the worse time in the world to remind the 'detractors' that war and the machines built to prosecute them does not make for a perfectly safe working environment. If one is trying to even partially simulate high sortie rates for both newer and older aircraft these type of incidents are bound to happen with the only question being how far your protocols and general safety standards allows your ground crew to be when things do go wrong.

On another note last time i checked the F-22's maintenance hours were still increasing per flight hour; anyone have updates on that?

Stellar

Small nit pick, but how can you possibly put a mark against the aircrafts safety record in a ground collision? Clearly had nothing to do with the aircraft, pilot yes, aircraft no. Love it or hate it, you can't find any fault with the -22 in a ground collision.

reply to post by Wakeupcall

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Because we don't KNOW that it was the pilot. The initial report that I heard that came from the squadron commander of the Hornet squadron was that he lost nosewheel steering before he hit.

One other thing people should put into perspective is the cost.

If you hit another car with yours, your lucky if the cost to repair yours is under $3000 for even a car that costs 50000. We are talking about a multi million dollar jet that has to go through alot of testing post repair before it flies again.