First let me establish that I am an atheist, and have rejected all religion, but still respect the beliefs of others, and would like to learn about religions. It is for this reason that I ask a question which has troubled me for some time - How did the death of Jesus "save" humanity, or repent all of our "sins"? What consequence, other than martyrdom, did his death have?

I would appreciate a straight answer, not an ambiguous biblical message which could mean anything or nothing

Jesus was the son of God, born to the virgin Mary. Along time ago in ancient times, God sent Jesus who was born through Mary to help mankind and to help us love each other. He was born in a manager. He grew up and performed many miracles and other feats that he performed, here's some that I can remeber.

1.) Made a blind amn see again.

2.) Walked on water.

3.) Feed a hungry crowd of a thousand people.

4.) Turned water into wine.

5.) Cured lepers.

There are many more Cider. Sadly my Bible is not at my side. He was considered a heretic by the priests because he said he was the Son of God. He was betreyed by his disicple Judas at the Last Supper. He was captured by the Romans and he suffered and died under Pontious Pilot. Before that Satan tempted him in the desert.
He was crucified. He had to carry his cross all the way to the place where he was to die. On his head were a crown of thorns. He slipped a few times, and a woman wiped his face ina cloth and his fave was left on the cloth. The Romans erected the cross and he was nailed by the hands and feet to it. He was crucified between two criminals, the one on the right asked Jesus to forgice hima and he did, the one ont he left mocked him. He died on Good Friday. On Easter Sunday he was resurected and taught his disples some more, then he went to Heaven. He died to for humanity's sins so they can be forgiven.

The death of Jesus marked the ultimate mortal sacrifice of one's own life towards the "anti-punishment" of others. The short story is, Jesus rode (on a donkey or mule) into Jeruselem to get caught by the heads of the Temple and to be crucified. He accepted his fate and went willingly. As a result, his sacrifice allowed all other Christians (and perhaps all people) who believed in the forgiving power of God to repent and therefore be saved, ... through his acts.

So in the really short version, Jesus volunteered to die for your sins and did it happily and willingly so that everyone could be happy and together in Heaven.

One, fairly good claim, is that Jesus did not actually die, or not in the since of normal humans because he learned about his Godly rights as the/a Son of Man (God). Therefore, there was no real death, just a bit of torture before you leave this life and jump right into the next one in Heaven. If the supernatural claim is correct, his body and soul transcended itself into Heaven.

How do you kill an immortal? You don't. You just piss him off. So now, perhaps an apocolypse will occur one day, or maybe not. It depends how literal you get, or which branch you were to take your view points from. There are like 30 different types of Christians, if not more. My advice is to be a "good Christian," and that does not just mean on Sundays or days of your choosing.

Here is an interesting thought experiment for you. You exist now. You have proof of that. Well, if you exist now and everything that made you existed before you... you actually existed before you existed. In order for this to be true, some part of you must be eternal. Therefore, you do exist, have existed, and should always exist. Welcome to your human life .

Jesus did not die for our sins. He died because of them. Jesus was ahead of his time in that he had new ways of thinking that flew in the face of the state sanctioned religions of the time. His way eliminated the middleman and gave one direct access to the Creator.

Jesus was a revolutionary and was killed for it. It was not until many years after his death that anything was written about him. It was necessary to elevate him to God-like status in order to serve as the center for a new man made religion.

The death of Jesus did not "save" humanity as much as it showed us all that one man can change the world. Sadly, I fear that message has been lost.

" If Jesus is the Son of God, then who is God's daddy?"

I beleive that the most important thing about "Jesus"(i use qutoes becuase there is a lot of info out there that say jesus was his title. The muslums called him Isa. If you really respect this man you should call him by his name not his title that has been ill translated) was that he was showing people how to live a way of life. In his final teaching he said that your'e temple was within you and that you didn't need the church(which we have seen, can get very courrupt) to show your love for God. It was done throught your actions. "Jesus" action clearly showed he had a love for humanity. And he believed in humanity so much that he was willing to die for a cause, just like many maryter have done in the past

How did JESUS become the "Ultimate sacrifice for anti-punishment"?

Those Indians in the late 40s, who were following the non-violence policy of Ghandi, made Martin Luther King look like it was a cake walk, and makes Jesus not far ahead!

They literally would sit there in Brittish bases, and the britts would shoot them in the head, one at a time, then tell them to leave, then shoot them again.

One case, the brittish commander got through 300+ sitting hindus, until finally he said "Screw it what insanity is this?"

I'm sorry but I bet you jesus wishes he could have hopped off the cross, it's a bit different when you're tied to your doom, then when you simply sit there and accept it completely free to leave at any time.

Sincerely,
no signature

Freemason,

In comparing Indians to Jesus, you said, "it's a bit different when you're tied to your doom, then when you simply sit there and accept it completely free to leave at any time."

I don't suppose it's occurred to you that Jesus KNEW Judas would betray Him, told Judas to "do it quickly", stuck around until He was arrested, and even carried His own cross to Calvary? Or how about how He remained silent when Pilot encouraged Jesus to proclaim His innnocence? Surely He could have begged and pleaded for His life had He needed to. He went to the cross willingly. And whatever "ties" He had to His "doom", they weren't the ropes and nails that bound Him to the cross.

You also mentioned "those Indians in the late 40s, who were following the non-violence policy of Ghandi..."

I see... So it was Gandhi's non-violence policy....

If you take the time to read Gandhi's biography you will find that his policy was a DIRECT RESULT of the inspiration he gleaned from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

By hearing the Word, understanding the mysteries, practicing Christ's Will, and admitting Christ before men, Gandhi WAS a Christian and a Hindu.

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followed not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." MARK 9:38-40

"The message of Jesus as I understand it," said Gandhi, "is contained in the Sermon on the Mount unadulterated and taken as a whole... If then I had to face only the Sermon on the Mount and my own interpretation of it, I should not hesitate to say, 'Oh, yes, I am a Christian.' But negatively I can tell you that in my humble opinion, what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount... I am speaking of the Christian belief, of Christianity as it is understood in the west."

"I did once seriously think of embracing the Christian faith," Gandhi told Millie Polak, the wife of one of his earliest disciples. "The gentle figure of Christ, so patient, so kind, so loving, so full of forgiveness that he taught his followers not to retailate when abused or struck, but to turn the other cheek, I thought it was a beautiful example of the perfect man..."

"Of all the things I have read what remained with me forever was that Jesus came almost to give a new law - not an eye for an eye but to receive two blows when only one was given, and to go two miles when they were asked to go one. I came to see that the Sermon on the Mount was the whole of Christianity for him who wanted to live a Christian life. It is that sermon that has endeared Jesus to me."

And Martin Luther King was a freemason, so more than likely it was a 'cake walk'.

-ß-

Savonarola
I don't suppose it's occurred to you that Jesus KNEW Judas would betray Him, told Judas to "do it quickly"

IF! That isn't just myth. And you say he even carried his own cross, yeah mmh hmm, SO DID EVERY OTHER LOW LIFE CRIMINAL AND SLAVE!

If you can't see that Jesus is just a cult idol then you're pretty blind, and this is comming from someone who's tollerant of religions but tollerance doesn't change truth.

Jesus, preached a GOOD idea, he was killed for it, and he certainly did not sit there at be shot in the head, after being asked, "do you want to yeild?" no...he was strapped to a cross, unable to change his mind once the ball was rolling.

But then somewhere down the line, the Jesus cult grew larger, and started to riot destroying Roman temples in rome, and so they decided enough is enough, we'll just kill them all off, and the rest is history.

The truth of Jesus is interpreted by each person, but historically, he's not the "Most martyred", that was my point, there are many more people martyred willingly in much worse and fanatical fassions than him.

Hah...ugh...I doubt you've read Ghandi's biography, so if you point out where this Hindu man believing in 300,000,000+ gods, says "JESUS CAME TO ME, AND I SAW THE LIGHT OF HOW TO FREE MY PEOPLE!" I'll believe you.

Haven't you heard, you can't be a christian AND a hindu, christians hate pagan heathens who don't believe in the TRINITY (Ironic no?)

You want to be technical, Buddha was the greater non-violent activist, hell his movement survives today over 2500 years AND never once have they fought a holy war, Jesus's followers fought what....378 holy wars?

13 crusades, maybe it was 15, numerous slaughtering of European tribes, the 30 years war, the inquisitions....some peace activist! How you leave your followers when you go is as much important as how you lead them when you're a live, in that truthful philosophy Jesus was an utter failure, except for maybe the TRUE christians (the aramthians is it?) I don't think they've really invovlved themselves in super holy wars.

"I did once seriously think of embracing the Christian faith," Gandhi told Millie Polak, the wife of one of his earliest disciples. "The gentle figure of Christ, so patient, so kind, so loving, so full of forgiveness that he taught his followers not to retailate when abused or struck, but to turn the other cheek, I thought it was a beautiful example of the perfect man..."

Site this, AND site where it says Martin Luther King is a Freemason, I've seen no doccumented proof of that at all, and doubt it very much.

Yeah and your suggestive comment about the freemason thing only shows how Jesus was an utter failure.


Sincerely,
no signature

PS. Maybe Christians should stop making Jesus a failure, act the way he wanted people to act, and make him the "son of god" he is supposed to be, rather than crapping on his name by being such hypocrits (refers mainly to the church, not the individual christian whom does show great signs of being very "christ-like" but for some reason the religion is very hypocritical and even violent, and arrogant//intollerant)

[Edited on 5-2-2003 by FreeMason]

If you believe, he took away the sins of the world. If you don't believe -you take your pick.
And -to an earlier correspondent: you may be thinking of Christ: "annointed" -from the Greek- as the title.
"Jesus" is simply a post-Latin version of his Aramaic name: Isa is just the Classical Arabic for the same -we might as well insist Abraham be called Ibrahim, Moses: Musa, David: Daud; Solomon: Sulaiman etc. etc.
A red herring.

Freemason,

This "remember the crusaders, inquisition, etc, etc," argument against Christianity, reiterated by anti-christs like yourself, is rendered impotent when you consider that torture, murder, false witness and all the other abominations these societies conducted are completely opposite to Christ's teachings. Lest we forget, also, that some freemasons count themselves ritual descendants of the Knights Templar...

It should have become obvious to you by now that Christ's teachings (the ideal) have been warped and twisted into a worldly system (idealism). Yet you say, "13 crusades, maybe it was 15, numerous slaughtering of European tribes, the 30 years war, the inquisitions....some peace activist!" Some peace activist? Christ ordered them to kill, rape and steal? Show me a quote from the bible where He encourages violence (other than beating the merchants in the temple on the Sabbath). Show me where He tries to establish an earthly kingdom by war and blood.

And please, please don't go quoting the Old Testament to do so. After all, "All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them." (JOHN 10:8)

As a proof that the crusaders, inquisition, and any other organisation that used Holy Scripture and questionable means to further their own agenda were not of Christ - no matter what they quoted or preached from the bible - I offer up the following evidence that these men were NOT Christians:

"...a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit>'For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes...And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" LUKE 6:43-46

"Beware of false prohets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" MATT 7:15-16

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." MATT 7:21-23

"THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTHM AND HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME. BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN." MATT 14:8-9

You said, "Site this, AND site where it says Martin Luther King is a Freemason, I've seen no doccumented proof of that at all, and doubt it very much."

Okay, first cite here:

M.K. Gandhi, The Message of Christ. (Ahmedabad, 1940).

I'll see if I can drum up the site where I read about King.

Freemason, you may understand your rabid hatred of Jesus and Christianity after reading the following verses:

"If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your your father the devil, and the lusts of your father will ye do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." JOHN 8:42-47

-ß-

You attack Freemasonry in response Savonarola like there is ANYTHING TO ATTACK!

Templar Knights were more nobel and less blood thirsty then the whole of the corrupt church!

You obviously can't read either!

I said JESUS WAS A FAILURE BECAUSE HIS FOLLOWERS DON'T DO WHAT HE TOLD THEM TO DO idiot!

How hard is it to understand that?

Buddha's followers (buddhists, don't fight wars, look at the tibetans!) Jesus follwers, comitt attrocities that only now have they woken up and semi-stopped.

"I offer up the following evidence that these men were NOT Christians"

What a load of $hit, they were every bit as christian as anyone else who is today. HAHAAHAHAH, DON'T HIDE FROM THE TRUTH OR CHANGE THE PAST LIKE A COMMUNIST YOU SWINE!

And I don't have a rabid hate of Jesus OR Christianity.

I have a rabid hate for hypocrits and liars, something many past christians and still some christians today, WERE//ARE!

Stop redefining the past.

Sincerely,
no signature

Freemason,

You're foaming at the mouth again...

You said, "they were every bit as christian as anyone else who is today".

Christ said, "why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" LUKE 6:46

Therefore, men and women who follow His words and His example ARE Christian. Those who don't, by killing, lying, etc, aren't - no matter how much they profess to follow Him.

You also said, "Buddha's followers (buddhists, don't fight wars, look at the tibetans!) Jesus follwers, comitt attrocities that only now have they woken up and semi-stopped."

The only atrocity I see here is a garbled, misspelled, grammatically incorrect sentence... that fails to form a premise for your already weak argument. Buddha's followers do what? Are you saying Buddhists have never gone to war or fought? Shaolin monks have killed in many battles... and I'm sure I can find several references to "buddhist" warlords and warriors in Asian history to call upon.

You said, "JESUS WAS A FAILURE BECAUSE HIS FOLLOWERS DON'T DO WHAT HE TOLD THEM TO DO idiot!"

Christ's followers are the ones that follow His Word and example. Those who fail to do as He said are not his followers. Therefore, if Jesus said killing a man is bad, and then a knight templar kills a muslim, that knight is not a Christian, no matter what he professes.

You also said, "HAHAAHAHAH, DON'T HIDE FROM THE TRUTH OR CHANGE THE PAST LIKE A COMMUNIST YOU SWINE!"

Sure. Whatever.

-ß-

Well since you obviously confuse BUDDHISM with ZEN BUDDHISM (Two totally different things one is about the man, the other refers to it but was started by 2 different men who had their own views on how to do things)

Also, Shaolin Monks never actually fought ANY battles, there are stories of a fight here or a fight there, but no one would ever fight a shaolin monk knowingly.

The Zen Buddhist Samurai however, but they also were heavily influenced by Shintoism.

And you should be careful of what you quote in the bible, much of it was added and changed over and over again.

Sincerely,
no signature

Freemason,

You said, "Well since you obviously confuse BUDDHISM with ZEN BUDDHISM (Two totally different things one is about the man, the other refers to it but was started by 2 different men who had their own views on how to do things)"

So you're saying that there are buddhists that follow Buddha's ideals and others that warp Buddha's ideals? Imagine that. If you think really hard you may see how this is relevent to Christianity.

You also said, "Shaolin Monks never actually fought ANY battles, there are stories of a fight here or a fight there"

I see. So they "never actually fought ANY battles"... except for a "fight here or a fight there". They don't fight except when they fight?

"And you should be careful of what you quote in the bible, much of it was added and changed over and over again."

Yeah, it was translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English, and thusly, changed three times. Except for a word here and there that had to be altered because of language inconsistencies, what changes were made? Are you saying that the monks that sacrificed sex, marriage, wealth, etc to be with their God 24/7 (they translated it) had another agenda? They feared God over torture and death. Nothing was changed, and nothing was lost. The Bible is at is was meant to be.

At this rate, I'll be at 33 before you... in other words, never.

-ß-

Jesus died and came back from the dead, he could also bring back other from the dead.

nuf said

Bump.

Freemason ain't gonna touch this one.

-ß-

Hah if you think the bible is "as it should be" then how about reading it for once?

Hell the Old Testiment is full of crap written by monks during the dark ages, now how can a peice of the bible, written down nearly 2000 years before the dark ages, have stuff written into it DURING THE DARK AGES?

And during the councils of nicea and such...the bible, has been altered, if you don't want to go to hell, you better become a Jew damn fast christian, because the bible you read is false. By your own definition of course (it is as it should be....WRONG)

Sincerely,
no signature

FAITH!!...If you have none in the son of God...Jesus...then you are doomed to the firey depths of Hell...eternal life without God...none...eternal PAIN!! Jesus had the means and power to call legions of angels when He was on the cross....10,000 angels were just kept waiting about...just in case no forgiveness was given. But...they pierced His side...put nails through His arms/hands and feet/ankles...and they didn't even follow the same means of crucifiction with Jesus...they didn't give Him a living chance...but He lived and stayed and then died on the cross...even the Roman soldiers said "If thou art the son of God...bring yourself off of the cross and come down to the ground"...and He still stayed...darkness fell all over the earth for three hours that day..total blackness...then Jesus gave His soul for you and all of mankind. Let me reiterate...FAITH...you are your own church..and you must open the doors to Jesus...share your faith...and love toward other mankind. All of science is moving towards the Bible's teachings...because...it is true...and has not been and will not be disproven by no man. Look up "faith" in the dictionary...if you have none...you are doomed...with faith in Jesus Christ...the Son of God...you will have eternal life in God's house in company of His son...Jesus. It doesn't matter what they call Him or how it is all translated...it is how you on a personal level...get to know Jesus...walk in His shoes....and tell others what you know of Him...and His eternal love for mankind. It's plain and simple...it is all up to you...you can't prove it...you can't disprove it...that's why Jesus taught what He taught...did what He did...He gave us life beyond this life...but...you must have FAITH!! MARANATHA...AMEN!! Don't wait till later...NOW is the time to give Jesus your heart and soul...the end of times is always drawing near...maybe within a twinkle of an eye...maybe decades down the road...be He needs you now to spread the news of the coming again of the Lord. Should have been a preacher...eh?

[Edited on 7-2-2003 by xenongod]

[Edited on 7-2-2003 by xenongod]

Freemason I truely think you are on drugs in this thread....

Originally posted by FreeMason
Hell the Old Testiment is full of crap written by monks during the dark ages, now how can a peice of the bible, written down nearly 2000 years before the dark ages, have stuff written into it DURING THE DARK AGES?

This is such garbage even your own freemason borg leader would be embarrassed about you. The OT is entirely accurate writtena bout 4000 years ago, its been proved over and over with manuscripts etc from the time being the same as today.

And during the councils of nicea and such...the bible, has been altered, if you don't want to go to hell, you better become a Jew damn fast christian, because the bible you read is false. By your own definition of course (it is as it should be....WRONG)

Truely the ignorant ranting about their own ignorance, Hollow pots make the most noise fm, boy are you hollow ...