Jesus Mentions Reincarnation!

Of course the church wants you to believe that you die and go to either heaven, if you are good, or hell if you are bad. Religion is big business. They can't have you believing that you might spend many lifetimes here. But there is a scripture in the Bible where Jesus himself speaks of reincarnation! Unless I am taking this wrong...here is the text:

Matthew 17:12-13 (King James Version)

12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but the discussion was on the last days and how the disciples didn't think that day could come until Elias aka Elijah came back, to which in my own words Jesus tells them that Elijah had returned but as John the baptist but that no one recognized him...am I misreading this?

I am not qualified to answer your question but here is a reference to someone who is, and what they have to say.

After reading this I am not sure what to believe.

This reference seems to be working hard to disprove your question about reincarnation, without actually openly addressing it or using the word.

That kind of underhanded behavior is a red flag to me. The author has his own agenda and deep seated belief system, I expect he would not want conflicting views getting in the way.

Analysis.

Most noticable about this is it seems very scholarly, the author is remarkably well informed, unfortunately he does not share the justifications for his conclusions about alternative interpretations, only the alternative interpretations. That is not scholarly, that it pompous.



[edit on 15-4-2009 by Cyberbian]

I remember hearing a theory that Jesus was a Buddhist.

The 3 wise men from the east looking for the chosen one and then the missing time in his life when he could have been taken to do his training.

Jesus may of in fact been one of the Dalai Lama.

reply to post by munkey66


I have seen lines of reasoning suggesting he was the unification of all the major religions. The Light, The Truth, and The Way. Those are titles for the religions, and curiously also used for Christ.

It's a great question.

Since Elijah disappeared into the sky I think there are several possibilities:

1) John the Baptist (JB) was Elijah returning. I discard this since JB was born; thus, his method of return is certainly more mysterious than his exit. If he was simply returning, why be born? Although, if Elijah had become a heavenly creature upon disappearing, then being 'reborn' to enter this world is no more far-fetched than Jesus entering the world through birth.
2) JB was Elijah resurrected. This posits that after disappearing, Elijah died and was born. I discard this because resurrection implies being risen in your original body; thus, no need for birth.
3) JB was Elijah reincarnated. This posits that after disappearing, Elijah died and was born as JB. Barring the obvious DNA complexity problems here, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that Elijah was JB.
4) JB was Elijah 'in spirit', i.e. the spirit of Elijah. I would suggest that this may resolve to #3 and may explain the notion of being 'born in the spirit'. Since spirit is eternal, perhaps birth is the necessary point of ingress into this world for a human being anyway.

Anyway, I don't think it's a bad question at all.

For those who have seen the DVD, Everything is Spiritual, it reminds me a little bit of the 'flat land' explanations. If our spirits exist in higher dimensions then perhaps birth is the process by which we experience this lower dimensional world. The only counter to that is the description of angels simply appearing to man at various times or Jesus returning as the conquering Messiah. In these instances, it appears birth is not necessary. However, they aren't returning as human beings either.

Good stuff.

At the Council of Nicaea, the Roman emperor Constantine and three hundred church leaders decided on church doctrine, what to put in the Bible, what to exclude. The question of reincarnation was put to a vote. One story I heard had Constantine removing and executing anyone who disagreed with his views.

I haven't read that section in a while, but I remember thinking maybe he meant they were spiritually the same, like preached the same things or what Jesus was saying was that here's someone that was just like Elijah in spirit and has already come and nobody noticed. So here you are waiting on someone you wouldn't even recognize if they showed up. Kind of like when people say, if Jesus returned today would you even realize it?

Remember two things. The first is that Elijah never died according to the Bible. He was just taken straight up to Heaven in human form. That doesn't usually happen to people according to the Bible.

Also, remember that John himself said he was not Elijah.
John 1:20
He spoke openly and, remaining true to himself, admitted, “I am not the Messiah.”
So they asked him, “Well then, are you Elijah?”
John said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”

Anyway you didn't read it wrong though. We just don't know for sure if that's what he meant. That might have been exactly what he meant though. There's nothing against being born again really in the Bible. The only difference between the Bible and what you would normally refer to as reincarnation is that reincarnation happens to everyone. According to the Bible it would be very rare and maybe only in certain situations. Perhaps explaining why only very few people remember past lives? I dunno.

Anyway in Luke 1:16 it is said about John.
He will bring many of Israel's descendants back to the Lord their God. 17He is the one who will go before the Lord with the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, and to prepare the people to be ready for the Lord.”

I think what this says to me is they're not the same person, but that he has his spirit. Or they are kindred spirits if you will. That he is like Elijah, but not the same person. I just can't be sure of that. For all I know he did have the literal spirit of Elijah, but I will have to read up on it more.

One things for sure, not everyone gets "reincarnated" according to the Bible and that may be the major difference. Well until judgment day, but that's not quite the same thing. Maybe some people do get to come back before that though.

reply to post by Charis


I had heard this before as well, but to my eyes and understanding, these two verses could possibly refer to reincarnation. It fits, doesn't it?

reply to post by tinfoilman


I hadn't thought of it in that way, and of course that is a possibility, but, if John was in fact Elijah reincarnated, would he know this? Wouldn't it make sense that he didn't and hence his answer of No when questioned about being Elijah? Did that make any sense? lol

reply to post by Ichabod


Very thought provoking! You have given me some things to chew on! Thank you. Would it not be great to see everything that was decidedly left out of the Bible! I only wish that I could understand all that is there!

I don't see why people make a big deal about reincarnation. Jesus is saying he is that, but John says he is not. What does this mean? It means same soul/spirit, but John has no direct memory of it. Thus, he does not remember the previous life in his current.

Which is basically normal for those who do believe in reincarnation. Now if peoples specific claims of being reincarnated are true or not, that is another story. Kind of like while there is a good possibility of alien life, doesn't mean anyone who claims to have alien contact is telling the truth.

This can also make sense in another way as well, where Jesus says all things will happen before this generation is over, he might not have been talking about in the current life. Not really sure on that, but would make sense.

reply to post by Greenize


Oh my g-d, i have killed untold number of ants and mosquitoes. Does this mean I will be reincarnated as an ant and a mosq?

Originally posted by Greenize
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

I hadn't thought of it in that way, and of course that is a possibility, but, if John was in fact Elijah reincarnated, would he know this? Wouldn't it make sense that he didn't and hence his answer of No when questioned about being Elijah? Did that make any sense? lol

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I think it's, if John was Elijah would it make sense that he simply didn't know it? WellI've heard about people not remembering their past lives until they're older or not at all, but that's just speculation.

It's just hard for me to speculate why John would say he's not Elijah and Jesus would say he is, when I don't really know for a fact if he was or not. My guess is we're simply missing something in the context that would have made perfect sense had we actually been there at the time.
People talked different back then, plus only knowing English perhaps something was lost in translation.

The most important thing I think you can take away form this, is that while we don't know for sure, the door is open here for some kind of reincarnation.

reply to post by Greenize


Elais was also a term use for someone who was a forunner or someone who was to prepare for something. John the Baptists whole ministry was to prepair for the coming of Jesus, which is why Jesus refered to him as Elias.

I'll check and see if I can come up with sources.

Slightly off topic, but a related issue is the second coming and the witnesses. It's generally accepted that Elijah is one of those. Who is the second one? Some say Enoch since that's the only reference (indirect as it may be) to someone simply disappearing from earth taken to heaven. Others say Moses - remember the reference to fighting over his body with Satan? Why care? Did he need a resurrection vessel for some future event? Would it even be preserved?

If Elijah precedes Jesus in the second coming, then it could be the original Elijah in the flesh. This would satisfy the long awaited return of Elijah celebrated at every passover - with the untouched but filled cup.

That would make JB a 'type of' Elijah. This has the possibility of making both the "I'm not Elijah" and "he is Elijah" statements true.

Here is some information on reincarnation in the bible. If we open our minds and read the bible without the ingrained crap about what it means, we can see reference to it all over the place.

REINCARNATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE BLIND MAN

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:1-2, NIV

The disciples wanted to know the reason for the man's blindness. They offered two possibilities to Jesus. Either the man was blind because of the sins of his parents or he was blind because he was reaping the fruit of his own sins (karma). If our souls do not exist prior to this birth and if the man was born blind, then when or where could he have committed the sins that caused his blindness? His soul would have existed prior to that birth and he would have been engaged in a corporeal setting with other people to commit sins against or with. In other words, the blind man had a previous life. This indicates that the pre-existence of the soul was a prevalent idea among the disciples, otherwise how could they have asked such an unusual question? Neither does Jesus ask them where they got such a strange idea. He does not marvel that they have presented him with such a foolish concept. Where did they get this idea? As we have seen in the "blind man" scripture and other scriptures, the concept of reincarnation was understood by Jesus and the disciples. They employed the concept in these discussions in a matter-of-fact way.
ELIJAH'S RETURN
Elijah the prophet is believed to have lived in the ninth century B.C.E. At the point of his death a fiery chariot with horses of fire took him in a whirlwind to heaven and he was seen no more (II Kings 2:11). Four hundred years later, Malachi closed the last lines of the Old Testament with a prophecy from God stating that God would send Elijah before the "great and terrible day of the Lord" comes (Malachi 4:5). The Jewish people were expecting Elijah to return as the necessary preface to signal the coming of the Messiah.

The disciples all felt that Jesus was the Messiah but they were puzzled. Where is Elijah? The disciples asked the Master about this and he told them that Elijah had already returned as John the Baptist. The first discussion of this is in Matthew, chapter 11.

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 11:11-15, NIV

The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. Matthew 17:10-13, NIV

The above scripture indicates that the disciples and Jesus believed in reincarnation. John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. In an attempt to fit these scriptures into the orthodox view of one-life-only, some believe that Elijah never died as we know it because he went up in a chariot of fire, thus discounting John the Baptist as an instance of reincarnation. Their thinking is that Elijah did inhabit John the Baptist but it was not rebirth because Elijah had never died. For this "discounting" to really work, the Baptist would need to have returned in the same fiery chariot as a grown man. However, he was clearly placed in the womb of a human mother after which he had a very mortal and common birth. Jesus said he was "born of woman" and in Luke 1:13-17, an angel tells John's father, Zacharias, that John will be born to his wife Elizabeth... "And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah." Others use this last line to say that John the Baptist was under the power of Elijah but was not the incarnation of Elijah. However, Jesus says in no uncertain terms that John is Elijah and not simply an ambassador of Elijah's power, "This is Elijah... He who has ears to hear let him hear" (Matthew 11:14-15). Also, Malachi does not say that Elijah will appear by proxy but that Elijah himself will return.
WHO IS THE SON OF MAN?
Yet another discussion between Jesus and the disciples underscores their belief in reincarnation.

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 16:15-16

The flow here seems to be that if a prophet were to appear he must be the incarnation of one of the prophets from the past and so Jesus is asking the disciples who the people think has incarnated as Jesus. The idea of the reincarnation of the prophets is taken for granted and the sole point of the question is to find out who the multitudes believe him to be. These scriptures indicate that, at least to Jesus and the disciples, the concept of reincarnation was common fare. Herod also heard that others were saying one of the prophets of long ago had reincarnated. This again indicates that such a belief in reincarnation was common at that time.

Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed, because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life. Luke 9:7-8, NIV

As long as your on the subject I thought I would add my 2 cents on John the Baptist. And it seems that there is a major problem with him. And here is the problem in a nutshell.

Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

If John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet as Jesus Christ claimed then there is a major problem here. The job of messiah as the Jews understood it 2000 years ago was a 2 man job.

Just a comment.

Originally posted by ntech
As long as your on the subject I thought I would add my 2 cents on John the Baptist. And it seems that there is a major problem with him. And here is the problem in a nutshell.

Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

If John the Baptist was Elijah the Prophet as Jesus Christ claimed then there is a major problem here. The job of messiah as the Jews understood it 2000 years ago was a 2 man job.

Just a comment.

Very true, this is why John the Baptist isn't Elijah. Elijah himself was translated, meaning he was taken up to be with God and live in an Immortal Body, this allows him to return to Earth later to fullfill the prophecy as above.

Reincarnation is something I don't agree with, however I do believe in us having a life before this one. In which there was the Council in Heaven that is talked about in Revilations Chapter 12. This is where all the "previous lives" come from, it is us watching the lives of those here on Earth and having some of that knowledge bleed through in this life.

Here is a little list of Scriptures which reference our Premortal Life.

Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) "God of the spirits of all flesh. "
Job 38: 7 "all the sons of God shouted for joy."
Eccl. 12: 7 "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Jer. 1: 5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee."
Zech. 12: 1 "Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him."
John 9: 2 "who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind."
Acts 17: 28 "poets have said, For we are also his offspring."
Rom. 8: 29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate."
Eph. 1: 4 "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world."
Heb. 12: 9 "subjection unto the Father of spirits."
Jude 1: 6 "angels which kept not their first estate."
Rev. 12: 7 "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon."
Prov. 8: 22-31;
John 1: 1-2 & 14; Referencing the Premotal exsistance of Jesus as Jehovah
John 8: 58; Also a reference to Jesus being Jehovah
John 17: 5 & 24; Another Refence to Jesus being Jehovah before his birth
2 Tim. 1: 9; A reference to our exsistance before our Birth and accepting Jesus as our Lord
Titus 1: 2; Another refernce to our exsistance with God before the world began.


[edit on 16/4/2009 by balrathamir]

reply to post by Ichabod


I'll try to answer your questions for you.

Slightly off topic, but a related issue is the second coming and the witnesses. It's generally accepted that Elijah is one of those. Who is the second one? Some say Enoch since that's the only reference (indirect as it may be) to someone simply disappearing from earth taken to heaven.

I personally believe that Enoch and Elijah are the Two Witnesses. You've stated the one big reason--the neither of them died. Another reason that I believe this is that during the Tribulation Period, there are two types of people on the Earth. Jews and Gentiles. Elijah would be the witness of the Gospel of Christ to the Jews--after Moses, he was the most revered prophet, and the Jews are expecting him to come back. Enoch would be the Witness to the Gentiles [though they may not realize it].

Others say Moses - remember the reference to fighting over his body with Satan? Why care? Did he need a resurrection vessel for some future event? Would it even be preserved?

The reference to Michael fighting for Moses' body is in Jude 9 I believe. Since Moses, according to Deuteronomy, was burried by God, it is possible that his body has been preserved. The reason that I feel that Satan would fight for Moses' body is that he could possibly reanimate it and lead Jews away from God--which is something that he's always wanted to do because of the promises that God made with the Jews. To be resurrected, your body doesn't need to be intact. God can recreate you with only a tiny bit of information.

Elijah was a prophet of Israel. He used this name as a title, saying that a prophet had already come but the disciples thought Jesus literally meant the man called Elijah from the Old Testament. It wasn't the same dude. There's no reincarnation mentioned here in this verse, especially according to the definition of reincarnation as understood in the Hindu religion. Jesus often spoke in parables and this is one example of allegorical speaking. A good example is when:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." - John 2:19

The Jews thought he was talking about the building, but he was talking about his body (being the temple) and did raise it up again in three days. It wasn't until after this occurred did the disciples understand what he'd meant.

[edit on 16-4-2009 by saint4God]