lol

Its okay, im just hungover , cant think straight !



Deep

I believe that God has created everything, but I also think that he simply allows a lot of things to happen. Basically, I think that he created the scientific laws and principles that make our world what it is. Then he got the ball rolling and let stuff play out -- to a certain extent.

This being said, I also believe that he intervenes with a lot of things, whenever he sees fit. He has a plan for everything, its just hard to draw the line of where he says, "ok, this HAS to happen" and "it doesn't really matter what happens here."

Jesus coming to earth, prophecies being fulfilled, etc. where things that had to happen in his big plan of things. Whether I snap my fingers three times right now or not snap them at all has no affect on the big picture -- I don't think it was planned out by God. You kind of get into discussion of free will with this.

I read a couple people suggesting that God making handicapped people was punishment to humanity. I don't think this is true, and even if it was, who are we to judge that. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. God has blessed some people more than others, but I don't think it has anything to do with sinning. We've all sinned at some point in time, and we're all going to die for it. That's the only punishment I know off. (Hell is mixed in there but that is reserved for the sin of not accepting Jesus)

sooo, other than the biggies God makes us than gives us the perverbial middle finger? yea thats love.

Oh yea he also intervenes in the case of the wicked sin of not beleiving in Jesus (GASP IN FEAR)

sooo, other than the biggies God makes us than gives us the perverbial middle finger? yea thats love.

Oh yea he also intervenes in the case of the wicked sin of not beleiving in Jesus (GASP IN FEAR)

lol,

hahahahhahaha

Your my favorite new member !

Deep

I see the body as being a vehicle, much like a car.
The soul enters the body and 'drives' it, much as a person gets into a car and does the same. When the person dies, the soul returns to the otherworld to prepare for another incarnation. This is similar to a person leaving an irrevocably broken down car and buying another.

However, a car may be slightly damaged, but still driveable. That is the analogy I use when discussing the bodies of handicapped people. The soul 'driving' the body is perfect (as every soul is) but the body is 'broken'. The car is still driveable but is damaged in some way.

If there is a god, its my opinion that this diety has no influence upon this reality whatsoever. It was created and left on auto-pilot from the start.

If there is no god, which is my real opinion of the situation we are all a part of, then that certainly alleviates any reasons as to why handicapped people are handicapped. There was never a reason to begin with, just as with everything else we witness.

In either situation, having a god or not having a god makes zero difference. There was never a reason for the handicapped to be created. Much like there is no reason for the non handicapped to be created.

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by heelstone]

I don't believe the God creates the physical. Man is responsible for shaping his own shell - God fills it. Evolution proves that over time, man has physically adapted to his own needs. We procreate through freewill and basically every disability that we suffer from has been of our own physical making or those of our surroundings.

God is responsible for the spark of light that is in each and every one of us. Although the physical body may be tarnished, that light is always perfect.

No i guess God creates them. EVERYONE has a purpose in life.

I don't think it was planned out by God

God doesnt plan out ANYTHING in your life. You have choices.

Originally posted by iceofspades
I had this discussion in my theology class and no one seemed to honestly be able to answer it;

Does God create handicapped people? Is this some form of punishment to mankind? If God creates everything as you Christians so avidly hold, why does he create deformities?

For *conspiracy* purpose for this thread I'll ask: Is this God's way to hold his power over the people?

[Edited on 23-4-2004 by iceofspades]

iospades, I am an athiest. I don't agree.
S.

I might be back tracking a lil' here but . . .

As the story goes, God created the Heavens/Universe as well as Earth. With in that creation the Earth brought forth life.

Does God create all of us individually, no, but we are part of the creation.

Now the Adam and Eve thingy. People re-read the story. Jesus has to have a linage all the way back to Adam for the Bible to work. That linage is only a few thousand years long. People have been on the planet for much longer. So I suggest if you are going to use Adam and Eve you might concider when and who they were. And Gen. 2 kinda explains it. Adam was taken from a land and placed in the Garden. Eve was cloned from Adam. Before any children were born to them, they were sent BACK to the land from which Adam was taken/abducted. Then they had two children. One sinned reallly bad and was sent ot another KNOWN land in wich he found a wife had a kid and built a city.

Gods work with creation was done waaaaaaaaaaaaay before Adam and Eve. The LORD God however was not. He and his angels/celestials are the ones responsible for mans adavancment from our primitive ancesotrs created millions of years ago via evolution.

Ask Glenn Hoddle, he has a strong opinion on the matter.

Who is Glenn Hoddle?

The answer is simple. God diddn't create the handicapped, Man and Woman did. Read the post titled "YOU CREATED THE HANDICAPPED" the author did a great job explaining.

I think their born that way to learn from it, like challenges and other things. It's in no way a punishment. Thats just silly to think of.

well if u believe god creates people than i guess he would create the handi capped

but if parents drink alcohol and do drugs than there kids can be handicap so i guess there is more than one way

If there is a god, its my opinion that this diety has no influence upon this reality whatsoever. It was created and left on auto-pilot from the start.

If you change it to there IS a god, and he prefers to leave us up to our own business, that is Deism. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and many others out of our founding fathers were Deist—it had to do with the enlightenment.

Do also remember that there are two levels of evolution—the adaptation of one species to it’s surrounding environment and the changes it takes for one species to break off into several independent, totally new species. Creationism—as talked about in the BIBLE supports the first, as does the Evolution theory (it’s not law yet).

I might be back tracking a lil' here but . . .

As the story goes, God created the Heavens/Universe as well as Earth. With in that creation the Earth brought forth life.

Does God create all of us individually, no, but we are part of the creation.

Now the Adam and Eve thingy. People re-read the story. Jesus has to have a linage all the way back to Adam for the Bible to work. That linage is only a few thousand years long. People have been on the planet for much longer. So I suggest if you are going to use Adam and Eve you might concider when and who they were. And Gen. 2 kinda explains it. Adam was taken from a land and placed in the Garden. Eve was cloned from Adam. Before any children were born to them, they were sent BACK to the land from which Adam was taken/abducted. Then they had two children. One sinned reallly bad and was sent ot another KNOWN land in wich he found a wife had a kid and built a city.

Gods work with creation was done waaaaaaaaaaaaay before Adam and Eve. The LORD God however was not. He and his angels/celestials are the ones responsible for mans adavancment from our primitive ancesotrs created millions of years ago via evolution.

Ok, just mentioned Adam as a way of getting to Noah—didn’t REALLY mention him—other than under the assumption that he was the original sinner. Most people of a religious background know this one, so I didn’t plan on thinking overly much about it, since I HAAATTEE religious discussions, especially when I know what I’m doing. (LONG STORY!)

Now that you mention it: If you are going to use a text, you USE THE TEXT, not opinion, especially without expressing it as opinion—the only reason I bother to list scriptures with my arguments. I’m having a hard time separating the two from your statements and too many would take it as the absolute truth FROM THE SCRIPTURES without looking it up. It’s easier to assume. (You don’t HAVE to; it just gives you more credibility. Remember; we are supposed to be holding to the truth, here.)

REMEMBER: I’m not saying your beliefs are wrong. I could believe I’m a rock, if I wanted to. It’s still MY belief.

OK:

Genesis 2:6-8
But there went up (8799) a mist from the earth, and watered (8689) the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed (8799) man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (8799) into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted (8799) a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put (8799) the man whom he had formed (8804).
Genesis 4:1-2
And Adam knew * (8804) Eve his wife; and she conceived (8799), and bare * (8799) Cain, and said (8799), I have gotten (8804) a man from the LORD. And she again (8686) bare (8800) his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper (8802) of sheep, but Cain was a tiller (8802) of the ground.
Genesis 4:16-17
And Cain went out (8799) from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt (8799) in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew (8799) his wife; and she conceived (8799), and bare (8799) Enoch: and he builded (8802) a city, and called (8799) the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Genesis 4:25
And Adam knew (8799) his wife again; and she bare (8799) a son, and called (8799) his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed (8804) me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew (8804).

Out of this mess comes several things: Scriptures state he was made from dust and mist, i.e. water—sounds closest to a primordial soup, MUD. They also state, in effect, that Eve was a clone—a bit supported by the fact that to be male you need a YX chromosome pair, not XX. (Oh-ho! A Genetic mutation? A loss in DNA caused a mutation? Makes me wonder HOW MANY viable mutations are the result of DEVOLUTION, not EVOLUTION? Oh, I’m a woman btw, and I don’t consider devolution something that makes me anything less than another, since I don’t consider the soul a result of genetic makeup.) They also state that Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel—and DOES NOT state whether or not Cain was their first child—just the first mentioned AFTER Eden was blocked by an angel with that big blasted sword. Now, the scriptures don’t make making your SISTER your wife TABOO until later. I think that’s in Exodus. WE didn’t make 1st cousin wives taboo until sometime last century. I get real tired of people using modern assumptions on a totally DIFFERENT AND ANCIENT culture.

Based upon scriptures, some of what you said is hogwash, but it doesn’t automatically make it so. It depends upon how much you want to believe the scriptures.

Now, back to the handicapped discussion:

This poor child was in the middle of a religious class, and I was trying to give something more than opinion, something that might have been useful in theological discussion.

My personal opinion is that you make your mistakes, and God deals with our mistakes as a part of his plans. Look at how we act; how can we assume (yet again) that God has no plans for us when we plan for our children’s future. I still believe he is in control, in spite of giving us free will. He allows conception to work, and the body does rid itself of non-viable pregs. It wasn’t until recently that we have found a way of making some of those pregs. Viable. NOTE: I did not say that they shouldn’t be given chances to live, just that they didn’t happen as much.

God didn't create "Disabilities and the Handicapped". He allowed it to happen. It is us, our karma in this life and our lives previously that affect how the next life will be. We created our disabilities.

Have you ever made fun of, bullied, ridiculed, or hurt a disabled person?? you better watch out, in your next life, it will be you who will be in the same position.

Originally posted by intrepid
If you are working on the premiss that god creates man, then the answer would have to be ...yes. There is handicapped, in you want to use that word, in all things the difference is that humans are the only species that takes care of those that need extra consideration. It's one of the things that seperates us from the animals.

That's not entirely true. There are many cases in which animals have been reported to help each other in times of crisis. (Dolphins, for example) There have been others.

Originally posted by iceofspades
Does God create handicapped people? Is this some form of punishment to mankind? If God creates everything as you Christians so avidly hold, why does he create deformities?

I do not think that God creates handicapped people, however I do think that he gives them a special gift to overcome or cope with the handicap. Many handicaps are a result of things that we have done, the environment, the things we put in our body... However, I believe that we are all here to fulfill a purpose, we each have a job to do, and when that job is done, we are free to go. We may never know what the job is, but God does. When it comes to a person with a handicap perhaps he is trying to get us to see this person for who they are inside, or to see how they have overcome adversity to show it is possible to do anything we set our minds to. Just a thought.