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The Billy Meier case has long since been consider to be a UFO hoax by a great many people. While "debunking the debunkers" serves no valid purpose for this long-proven fraud, this thread remains as an example of absurdity.

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I posted this debunking of IIG in an earlier thread by Ziggy. I think the thread was closed because it was similar to other Meier threads. I don't think we've had a thread on debunking IIG's investigation before, so I want to start one. I believe we(including myself) have been a bit dismissive of Meier and Meier's case needs reexamning.

I was convinced he was a hoax a few years ago on the basis that the ray-gun and the wedding cake looked too fake to be real, but in retrospect I realised that this was an argument from increduility. How I could possibly know what a 600 year old Pleadian ray gun would look like, or what a 100 million year old dinosaur would look like. I also figured, that even if they are fake, perhaps not all of his material is fake. It is possible that Meier or his organization fabricated some evidence to create interest, but genuine contacts were going on.

Why do I find Meier absolutely fascinating? Meier has some 200+ witnesses. One of them includes an ex UN diplomat. He is supported by the Disclosure project and by ex CIA whistle blower George Green. As well as by many scientific experts. He has produced hundreds of high resolution and very clear photographs of UFO's, as well as some terrific videos, all of which remain irreproducable to date(See the UFO duplication section)

IIG has set out to debunk him and then concludes on its web site it has. I am afraid IIG's investigation is a prime example of what is called pseudoskepticism. They were challenged by Michael Horn to submit their duplications of Meier's evidence for scientific scrutiny, just as Meiers material was, but they refused to. It will now become very apparent why they refused to as I systematically debunk their claims.

The Dinosaur picture

The claimed original and alleged source:



IIG claims that Meier faked this image because they resemble one another, but if one looks closely one will find:

1) The original lacks any of the texturing and the detail in the alleged source
2) The background and the strokes visible in the alleged source are not visible in the original
3) The limbs of the alleged dinosaur are very thin on the original, but not in the alleged source.

IIG claims this is because of the low quality and resolution of Meiers camera. In which case why hasn't it demonstrated that it can using a similar low quality and resolution replicate Meiers picture exactly? Until that is not forthcoming this cannot be accepted as proof. I don't have any photo-ediing software to see if I can take the alleged source and view in low resolution to see if I can get Meiers image. Anybody want to give it a go?

I do personally believe though that it possible that this a hoaxed image and taken from the alleged source, but possibly taken to support his real dinosaur trip. At this moment I cannot accept IIG's supposed alleged source as conclusive because it is possible that they have taken something that resembles the original Meier pic.

Asket and Nara pictures

Originals:





Alleged source of original:



There is something fishy going on here with the IIG's representation. The first image is from the 1983 book, "Contact from Pleadies: Vol 2" by Lee Elders. Then there is a reprint of this image in a different book, "And yet they fly" by Guido Moosbruggerin 1991, in which the second image appears that IIG has deconstructed which was not in Elders book.

It says in the end of the report:



Did you spot the misrepresentation? Lee elders was talkng about his book published in 1983, which Meier and his Pleaidians supposedly verified, in which the second photograph which IIG has deconstructed was not in it. Lee elders said nothing to verify the 1991 book, which was by another author. Thus IIG have misrepresented his quote.

I still think it is possibly that Meier did not take a picture of Asket, and this photo was hoaxed to support his contacts. It seems odd that the Pleaidians do not allow themselves to be photographed at other times, and then would allow Meier to have a face-shot of Asket.

UFO Photo duplication

IIG accepted Michael Horn's challenge to duplicate Meier photos using models but refused to submit them for scientific testing. It will become clear why after we compare Meiers best pictures and IIG's side by side:

IIG:




Meier:




IIG:



Meier:





IIG:




Meier:



IIG:




More Meier:

www.steelmarkonline.com...

It does not take a photo expert to see that the IIG fail on all technical counts: In their replicas it is obvious the UFO is a small model suspended above the ground by a 6-7 feet pole close to the camera. In others the model is right in front of the camera suspended by a fishing pole. And in some they have used frisbees, which actually look like frisebees. A very basic test of these photo by calculating focal points and distances of these objects will expose them in an instant. These are the kind of tests Meiers photos had to undergo and on a far more vigorous level. Thus it is only fair that the IIG's ones go through similar tests.

IIG does claim that they have run their photos through tests - by ahem applying photoshop filters to them. Meier's photos were tested far more vigorously than they have admitted. IIG tells similar lies for all of Meier's evidence(as we have seen already with the Asket and Nara pictures) for example it claims Marcel Vogel knew of the chemical composition of the metal sample through an electron microscope and demonstrates it is impossible to do that. This is another lie. He knew of the composition through chemical spectroscopy tests done on the metal and not through an electron microcope. Thus it should become clear IIG is repeatedly lying about Meiers evidence.

In Meiers photo you can clearly see these UFO's are suspended very high in the air and would require huge cranes to put them there(Somehow I think if Meier had a portable crane it would be noticed ) His UFO's are rather large and are a significant distance away from the camera so as to make a possible pole or a crane visible in the camera frame. If subjected to a test calculating focal points and distances etc the size of the UFO would be shown to be significantly large(ruling out small models) which is what test results have indeed shown.

There has been no attempt by IIG to duplicate his videos, but there are some pseudoskeptics who have tried. Let us compare

YouTube Link

Here a Meiers original video

YouTube Link

The deph perception is very clear and to give us perspective somebody even walks underneath. It is obviously not a small object dangled in front of a camera. If I can see replications of this footage then I will believe it could be a hoax, until then the skeptics need to work VERY hard to reproduce this stuff. It would seem if professional organizations like IIG are failing miserably, then this strongly supports the validity of these actually being genuine beamships who are in contact with Meier.



[edit on 22-4-2009 by SkepticOverlord]

Always liked Billy Meier, unfortunately a 'cult' grew up around him and this trashed his credibility, this is IMO who made the 'ray gun' photo's, to further their cause, by the end, Billy wanted nothing to do with them. They were using him for the expansion and establishment of their cult.

Nice examples btw, some strong research gone into that, starreg and flagged.

I have always wondered when the book with that Pterodactyl picture was published because for one, if I was trying to debunk someone, who had a picture of a dinosaur, which he said he took in the past, I'd make sure it damn well resembled something in the present.

Just something that I'd probably do.

As for the pictures of the Plaedians, I doubt thats real, as you said, they wouldn't let him take their picture, what changed? Plus, the image it is supposedly from does look remarkably like it, even down to the shoulder on the right hand side of the image, from the 3rd woman.

Getting a bok published with a specific image in is one thing, but setting up an entire TV show, correct angles and everything? IMO, doubt it.

I'd say his cult buddy's needed more 'proof' to show people, or he wanted people to believe him, so he forged them. I wouldn't do it myself, but no one is perfect.

I'd love to go and see him, stay on his ranch, but I don't think he let's people near it anymore.

EMM

Sorry for the dumb question but....

What is IIG?

reply to post by ElectroMagnetic Multivers

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I suspect your hypothesis is true. I think some of his cult members have fabricated some of the "evidence" to create more interest. I suspected this since I saw Randolph Winters public talk(available on youtube) where he talks about how disenchanted Meier is with his cult-members and how it has grown into a money-making organization and hijacked Meiers case from him. Apparently Meier has become a total recluse now and does not talk to anyone. So it makes me wonder whenever I see something recent saying, "Billy says" whether it is from Billy or from his cult members.

I think his evidence is a mixture of genuine evidence(the original videos and photos, metal and sound sample) and possibly disinformation(Asket, Asket and Nera, Dinosaur) I think the Ray-gun might be real, because the investigation team actually analysed the tree which had a hole burnt into it and it turns out the hole was oval and could not have been drilled into it. They also found that they could draw an extract straight line from where Meier was standing to the hole in the tree, thus suggesting he really did cause the hole to be burn into the tree from a distance, strongly suggesting the ray-gun hypothesis.

Excellent thread, S&F.

I really believe Meier is genuine with the UFO photos and the videos.

I had a look at that documentary posted in another thread where someone used a magnetic simulation to recreate the "bobbing" motion that the Meier UFOs showed in the footage. This is supposedly an effect created while the craft is interacting with the magnetic field of the earth.

Yet there are quite a few who actually, obviously haven't looked into this case enough and they scream hoax.

Here's probably the best UFO footage we've ever seen. It's the stuff skeptics want. Well, here it is.

reply to post by Indigo_Child

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you mean this one ?







you don't honestly think that's real do you ?

No disrespect, but how can we assume what an alien weapon might look like?

For all we know, our guns could have been originally built off an alien "handgun" that was recovered from a crash or anything.

reply to post by easynow

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I use to think it was a fake, but now a bit wiser, I cannot possibly tell. What do you think a 600 year old Pleaidian laser-gun would look like?

you mean to tell me that Pleaidians wouldn't invent a new ray gun in over 600 years ?

i use to be on the fence about the Meier case but....

now i am a bit wiser

reply to post by easynow

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Apparently they have, this was just a demonstration for Meier using an older model. To be honest the argument, "It does not look real" cannot be valid, because we have no idea what an alien ray-gun should look like.

The same goes for the bobbing motion of the beamship. We cannot possibly say whether a genuine UFO would have a bobbing motion or not. However it turns out that the UFO's are literally riding the earth's magnetic field, and recently a scientist has demonstrated building a toy which hovers slightly above a magnetic field with a bobbing motion just as Meier's beamships do.

Try not to overlook the the rest of the evidence just because something "looks" fake.

Meier's case is very interesting and controversial. There are many witnesses, in a way its similar to James Gililand's ranch with countless testimonies of visitors. But didn't he claim to be the reincarnation of Jesus? That was very hard to swallow. Also, some of the basic ideas regarding the earth only supporting 500,000 did seem too close to the Georgia Guidestones and the whole nwo thing.

His background itself seems to be cia. I've thought about his case for a long time. I think some of the photos can't be debunked because they're geniune.
The nazis appeared to have some advanced science and ets appeared to work with them, though I believe in the capacity of espionage and damage control.
I think the nazis had ufos.

M Kultra MC is the conclusion I've reached. He could very well be consciously conducting a top high level fraud, secretly backed by the cartel, which explains George Green and more. Or, he could be MC by the elite and cia. Or, he could be a special operative with compartmentalization that isn't aware that they've conducted the hoax around him. Something is happening there, but what?

You may not get very far on this website with this I'm afraid, there seems to be a concerted effort to debunk Mr Meier here regardless of the evidence. They will focus only on the couple of photograps that are indeed suspect and ignore the fact that there are over a thousand other photos which under years of examination during the late 1970's and early 1980's were considered by most who actually investigated this case to be authentic. They will not focus on the fact that no one has really reproduced the movies with any degree of accuracy, they will not focus on the thousands and thousands of pages of documentation on the case provided by Mr Meier or the vast majority of other verifiable evidence. They will say that it's a hoax because it dosen't look right, or provide smoking gun proof of hoax promoting evidence while completely ignoring something which contradicts that evidence. IIG have done this themselves

There is no winning this argument with most of them really, the debunkers on this case are every bit as close minded as they claim the Meier supporters to be. but it's always a good idea to keep the material in the public view as much as possible so that people can investigate for themselves. I myself was dubious about the validity of the case but after years of sifting through the information and deliberate disinfo by the likes of Kal Korf to name but one (see this for a laugh kalisanidiot.blogspot.com...) I have come to accept that it is real and ongoing. Even doing my own research on the web has recently turned up corroborating evidence to Mr Meiers evidence, I'm not posting it here, people can do theier own research. You can find ongoing discussions at the figu website if you like.

To Mistiq where on earth did you get the idea that Meier works for the CIA, what a load of twaddle and your other statements are typical of someone who has not actually read the facts about the case or is repeating from hearsay. Spend a few weeks actually reading the material and not making wild assumptions and easynow please post us your pictures of a real alien weapon, the argument that it dosen't look real has no basis in logic.

Peace

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Frankinmouse]

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Frankinmouse]

The ray gun has always made me giggle, replete with all it's 60's sci-fi embellishments. It could have come straight off the Barbarella set. That foil suit ain't half bad either eh! Sexy!

Meier only had to perform one simple task and the world would have believed him. Fire the bloody thing!

IRM

[edit on 15/4/09 by InfaRedMan]

Actually, its my opinion that he's black op based on his early years of extensive travel, which had to be funded. He was in the French Foreign Legion. And the manuscript that he found with another person. I connect dots. It seems so very illuminati the entire mysterious life he's led. Anyone with his background, and then his message that sounds similar to the depopulation and the Guidestones gives off strong black op vibes to me. Its my opinion that he is either black op, consciously or unconsciously working for them, due to so many different programs including M Kultra and compartmentalization existing. Ufo technology and nordic looking aryans are already in human capacity to create and probably have been for a long time. This is my subjective opinion.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by mystiq]

Mystiq,

Don't you think it is true that the Earth is made for 500 million people? If the population of Earth was 500 million to 1 billion don't you think it would be significantly less polluted, there will be significantly more resources for people, and signifcantly less conflict?

It maybe true that Meier's Pleaidians have confirmed that the Earth's ideal population is 500 million, but they do not support depopulation programs like the NWO. Rather the Pleaidians are very much counter to the depopulation initative and Meier has been warning about what what is going to happen for decades now in order to stop it. He also sent a letter in the 50's to the worlds governments forecasting the events that are to happen.

If you do get a chance to read Meiers contact notes they are very anti-NWO. As for Meiers travels? I didn't know you had to be in the CIA to travel around the world? I knew a man who travelled to 50 countries and was a vagabond. I don't think he was in the CIA

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

not only does it not look real..it looks like it was bought at K-Mart





it's so obvious that it's on a string..it's not even funny




i think you should take the opposite advice and not overlook the obvious just because it makes sense




Good Luck Debunking This...




www.iigwest.com...


www.abovetopsecret.com...
meiercase.0x2a.info...







[edit on 15-4-2009 by easynow]

Mistiq why would you connect imaginary dots and ignore the evidence staring you in the face? You don't need to make up another story about this case there's enough there in the first place. Everyone is entiltled to an opinion yes but you should at least base it on facts not wild supposition, the Georgia guidestones and George green have nothing to do with Meier other than Green picks and chooses material from Meier to use for whatever reasons of his own and makes up the rest, the guidestones were constructed 30 years after Meier published his notes, also nothing to do with him.

I agree with you, I do think we at ATS have been very dismissive of his case and this is why it need to be reexamined, because is not true skepticism to close a case which has not been properly examined. I think Meier's case is the kind that one really needs to examine very closely, because of the complexity of it. Like yourself, I too have begun from being very incredulous because of the ray gun etc, but upon closer inspection found the sum of the evidence very compelling. Now I am more or less convinced he is legit.

Anyhow I am sure ATS members will appreciate this time around that there really is a very strong amount of evidence that needs to be examined and we need to rise above our incredulity over the ray gun etc. It is indeed possible that this is a Pleadian ray gun, and if we think it looks tacky, well then Pleaidians have tacky ray guns - what are we expecting ET ray guns to look like?

I would love to join Figu but when I try to register it asks for an issue number which makes me think you need to be a member of the organization to participate in the forum.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Possibly, although the original investigators of Meiers case looked at all the toy stores in Meiers area they did not find another ray-gun similar to this. An interesting feature on the ray-gun is the apendage that runs from the bottom of it. I have never seen a toy like that.

I am not saying it is not a toy, but from the photo alone it cannot be said if it is a toy or a genuine ray-gun. It in unfasifiable.

Now unless you can show me what a real ET ray-gun would look like, I think this argument is going to get very tired.



It's not actually. Look at the Meier replica video which genuinely is on a string and you can see the motion is swingly, it never remains still, and when it moves you can see it shakes. Then compare the Meier original video, the UFO does not swing, but bobbs, and in a rather a smoothe manner, almost like it is a ship floating on water, which now we know is consistent with an object riding a magnetic field.So there is a very significant palpable difference.

However, if it really is on a string, then why is this video from the 70's still yet irreproducable in 2009? Be honest now, compare the replica and the original footage, do you not see a world of difference?

reply to post by easynow

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I wasn't going to but I'll debunk this for you then you can stop regurgitating other peoples mistakes and assumptions and do some research yourself or at the very least stop making inane comments on this subject.

This is supposedly a carpet tack that fell off the model, then why does it appear in these two other photograps in different locations in exactly the same place on the object, has the carpet tack the uncanny ability to sense when a photograph is being taken and is afraid of being seen in the picture so falls off in fright landing on the deck of the object in a place it feelsa safe and secure OR is it a part of the ship. My bet is it's a part of the ship.






There debunked.