Impossibility of the universe

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Since you cannot get something from nothing, there was a creator.

The first cause argument also leads to a creator, if you believe in causation that is.

Then there's the anthropic principal, also leads to God.

Sacred geometry, again - God.

www.youtube.com...

I see the hand of a wonderfully infinite intelligent design everywhere I look, and it only makes rational sense to think that behind the intelligence, is an intelligent, and therefore self aware being.

Now some would say that WE are an indistinguishable and inextricable part of that self awareness process, but I'm pretty sure that God is still God with or without us, and is not dependant upon human conscious awareness.

i do agree with you no mater who you believe in to be your God , but i do believe in
The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence, The Evolver,
The Maker, The Creator who has the Power to turn the entities ,
The Fashioner ,The One who forms His creatures in different pictures ,
The All-Seeing, The One who Sees all things that are seen by His Eternal Seeing without a pupil or any other instrument

but i don't believe this universe was some how a coincidence, its like one scientist said in a program one day, saying that this universe was created by coincidence is like a tornado hitting a junkyard and creating a 747 jumbo.

peace

reply to post by Astyanax

Thank you for the great explanation on redshift. Now I understand. It's great that there are people on ATS that can bring you on board with intelligent discussion and presentation of facts.

ok,

just imagine for an instant what being eternal is, and how we would see and perceive things if we were.

now, (i hope you did try) the basic i could say is:
1) time would be irrevelant, even the notion of it.
why? cos there was no beginning to your existence nor ANY kind of thoughts about your existence ending. we would just`"BE".

2)beginning and ending would also be irrevelant, even the notion of it.
why?cos there was no beginning ever.

3)past and future? they would not exist either, there would only be one moment where everything happens at the same TIME.

so the very question how life and the universe were created are irrevelant. the universe has always have been out there. Assuming God (or whatever you call it, energy, special force of life, etc.) is eternal too, Both God and the universe at the very infinite are the same.

reply to post by Jim Scott


The Universe is 13.7 billion years old, it is over 150 billion light years across however. So obviously the Universe itself had to expand faster than light. Most scientist agree with this, the fact that the Universe, or "space" moved faster than light does not violate causality. Einstein's theorem only stated that you can not move IN space faster than light, this precludes the act of moving space. So when the Universe was "created", and still now, today (since it continues to expand faster than light) it can and does expand faster than light, the only limitation is WITHIN the Universe itself. Maybe that cleared that up for you a little bit?


Hell this all could be wrong and the Universe could be an electric hologram!LOL.......

[edit on 7/21/2009 by jkrog08]

Ok if the Universe can expand multiple times faster than the speed of light is there a Theory out there that explains HOW it does it?

Is there a Theory that even begins to touch on what the factors are that cause the Universe to speed up in expansion and then slow down?

If there exists nothing outside of the Universe that would put friction or resistance on the expanding Universe, then what would even BEGIN to slow it down?

Why would the Universe not just instantly go from light speed to infinite speed during expansion?

Why would the universe get up to a certain speed of expansion and then slow down and then speed up again?

Are there even ANY Theories that begin to touch on that?

Is there a limit to how fast a Universe can expand? Is there a set of rules or laws or principles that affect the expansion speeds?

Since the same exact amount of matter existed inside the Universe when it was first expanding as exists now inside the Universe there would be no Gravitational restrictions that would cause the Universe to Speed up when the matter is closer together and then slow down when the matter gets farther apart and then Speed up when the matter is even farther apart.

It would seem that NOTHING affects the inflation of the universe. Not gravity and not the speed of light. There would be no friction resistance.

The Big Bang might have sent it on its way to start expanding but what would slow it down? The gravity of the mass inside the Universe? Then what would cause it to speed up again?

I is confused. Head hurted.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Is there a Theory that even begins to touch on what the factors are that cause the Universe to speed up in expansion and then slow down?

Well firstly, it's not slowing down. Secondly, all the forces could be contained inside the universe. A star works in the same way - the heat from the furnace inside forces outward in all parts of the star making it expand, but it's own gravity makes it contract.

But we don't know what's outside of the universe, we can't see out because the fabric of space bends back on itself and there is no way to percieve outside of the curve.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers




Theories are incomplete at this time, but there is one that is pretty much agreed upon. That would be that the Universe can expand faster than c because of many factors; One being its enormous energy potential it continues to have (it may very well slow beyond c one day, it may not--this is unknown at the moment). The second being that there is no rules against SPACE ITSELF moving FTL, only how fast you can go INSIDE of given space. Thirdly, this model can further be understood by utilizing hyperdimensional physics such as M-Theory or the Inflationary Model and advanced cosmological concepts as bubble nucleation.

Why would the Universe not just instantly go from light speed to infinite speed during expansion?

Because you would need infinite energy to acheive infinite speed, the Universe does not have infinite enrgy--it is ENTIRELY dependent on its expanson rate.

[edit on 7/21/2009 by jkrog08]

Well lets get one thing right here..

Impossibility is a mute point, and why? because we are here and so is IT....

I think many people will have to understand why we are here.

Lets look at some factors

We was created by "something" .. ok thats 1

the most asked question them becomes WHY was we created.. thats 2

Then the what? ah! its a riddle lets look at the 2 statements very very close

You can use quantom physics in this case.

from the first statement we have creation that would mean order of some kind in order to make the universe, hence why we have symmmerty yin yang pattens ect...

Then we can look at WHY do we ask why we are here? what is it we are searching for? an answer to what??

god? well.. kinda

In order for the universe to work would require life as one of its components... or you would not be here

Then we look at WHY again

This is key this word WHY governs your very being as it propagates answers that result in order

Universe = order "thing that made universe" = chaos

You = order = thing that made you" = chaos

and from both comes order "when you get answers"

you see its a patten !!

and in short if you dont understand what it is i am saying


For every question you ask there is answer.. because you are the result of one

A man sat on a rock and asked why here was here, when the very reason for him asking was the very answer

; )

the only problem is

we did not ask the question something did but it was not us...

and the answer to its question? OUR universe

just one of many questions




and when you ask a question a question results in infinity :@)

do you understand what i mean?



[edit on 21-7-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

reply to post by Welfhard


I guess I asked my question wrong. Ok The Universe expanded VERY VERY rapidly at first expansion AND THEN it slowed down SLOWER than when it was first expanding very rapidly. NOW we think the Universe is starting to speed up in the expansion again?

Am I correct in that?

Say the Universe expanded at 30 times the speed of light. Then the Universe slowed down in its expansion to like ten times the speed of light. Now we think the Universe is starting to speed up in it's expansion?

Or is the expansion of the Universe happening now at the same speed as when it slowed down after it initially expanded very rapidly?

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

Why would the Universe not just instantly go from light speed to infinite speed during expansion?

Because you would need infinite energy to achieve infinite speed, the Universe does not have infinite energy--it is ENTIRELY dependent on its expansion rate.

[edit on 7/21/2009 by jkrog08]

I am lost.

The Universe does not have infinite energy because it is a certain size?

Because there is a certain amount of energy inside the Universe?

Wouldn't that mean the more it expands the slower it expands?

So the expansion rate of the Universe is dependent on....how much energy was in the Big Bang? How much energy exists inside the Universe?

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


the universe has infinite energy because it was created.

What created the universe? is the very true power space is only the thing the universe resides inside of

the "space" as most people understand it is the vastness of out universe but something created it "the big bang or whatever" theoretically giving rise to another higher energy level that would be finite by definition in our own universe

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


It is currently unknown exactly how fast the Universe is expanding, if it is c, 2 times, 50 times, etc.... There are many different models on if the Universe will continue, stop, or 'crunch' back in on itself.

Because there is a certain amount of energy inside the Universe?

Wouldn't that mean the more it expands the slower it expands?

No, as the Universe continues to expand more things are being created, what we have in the Universe now is less than there will be in 5 minutes. As it expands more matter/energy is created, the law of conservation of energy/matter is only valid in a closed system, not an open one like an expanding universe. Other reasons are possible for a slow down of the Universal Expansion, but those are irrelevant to he basic discussion here.

What is your question exactly?

How fast the universe expand ?

or

How has it been created?

or

Why is there a universe at all?

what are you trying to figure out exactly?

think of the universe as a small child...

the more you grow the further you knowledge expands

same thing is happening with the universe

the more we measure it the bigger it gets

The universe has no shape

Your mind had no shape

; )

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

It is currently unknown exactly how fast the Universe is expanding, if it is c, 2 times, 50 times, etc.... There are many different models on if the Universe will continue, stop, or 'crunch' back in on itself.

Because there is a certain amount of energy inside the Universe?

Wouldn't that mean the more it expands the slower it expands?

No, as the Universe continues to expand more things are being created, what we have in the Universe now is less than there will be in 5 minutes. As it expands more matter/energy is created, the law of conservation of energy/matter is only valid in a closed system, not an open one like an expanding universe. Other reasons are possible for a slow down of the Universal Expansion, but those are irrelevant to he basic discussion here.

How is it that we currently believe the Galaxies are expanding away from each other faster and faster?

Wouldn't that indicate that the universe is indeed speeding back up in it's expansion?

Also you are saying that the Universe is creating more Matter?

I thought that the system WAS closed after the big bang. All of the matter inside the Universe was compacted into a small size. Once the expansion happened it was still the same amount of matter the very first measurable period of time after the big bang as it is currently?

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

How is it that we currently believe the Galaxies are expanding away from each other faster and faster?

Well dark matter is a major factor in that, as well is many open theories at this moment to account for the redshift of galaxies. I like this analogy:

Imagine the Universe a balloon, now mark some black dots on it with a marker.......Okay, now expand the balloon, hat will happen is because the very fabric of SAPCE ITSELF is stretching and expanding the black dots (galaxies) will expand as well. The only reason you have colliding galaxies and such is based on how close they are to each other and if the gravitational attraction can compensate for the expansion (remember gravity is the weakest force). Other than that every thing is getting further apart from everything else.This proves the Universe is isotropic, meaning it expands evenly in all directions. It is currently unknown what the shape is however, some think flat, some think super-symmetric(curving back in on itself), while others, like myself think it is spherical or bubble shaped.

Wouldn't that indicate that the universe is indeed speeding back up in it's expansion?

No, I think you are considering FTL speeds too much over the enormous size of the 3 dimensional Universe, at this size, even at "warp" (lol, it just is a quick way to say FTL) speeds the entire expansion process would seem painfully slow to us relative to the actual technical speed, if that makes sense.

Also you are saying that the Universe is creating more Matter?

Yes, but some would disagree, like I mentioned earlier there are MANY theories.

I thought that the system WAS closed after the big bang. All of the matter inside the Universe was compacted into a small size. Once the expansion happened it was still the same amount of matter the very first measurable period of time after the big bang as it is currently?

According to some theories, but as we can see this does not make much sense does it? Of course we can get into hyperspatial fractal expansion but that would be a whole other story.

BUT......If you accept the most "temporarily agreed upon" theory than the Universe is slowing down and its FTL speed is a result of the massive energy release during the BB. But many new mathematical formulas disagree with this. My fault, I should not have tried to give an 'official' answer outside of current mainstream theory.

[edit on 7/21/2009 by jkrog08]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0273ff50118b.jpg[/atsimg]

Further evidence of an isotropic universe courtesy of WMAP/NASA-JPL


As we can see from the microwave background taken from WMAP, the Universe is clearly homogeneous and isotropic.

reply to post by jkrog08


Oh cool thanks a lot for taking the time to explain everything for me. I really appreciate it. I get so confused sometimes trying to imagine it in my head. I am a very visual person so I kind of try and draw a picture or like the balloon example something I can step back from and visualize.

I DO have a theory I thought of today about the possibility of the expansion. I guess it would depend on very specific things to be proven though. I do not really know any Scientists so I will start a thread explaining my theory.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


Cool, and no problem


I love talking about cosmology and sharing what little I know about it(maybe I'll know more once I graduate,lol).

My fault for pushing less accepted theories rather than mainstream in an official explanation.

I will say you asked some GREAT questions, I would be interested to view your theory, can't wait.

Originally posted by Republican08
No offense at all.

I believe saying "God" manufactured this, instead of saying, we just don't know enough right now to realize how it happened, is a cop out, It's stunts our growth, it keeps us from making those thoughts that progress us, instead of saying how did this happen, you say Well God can do anything.

Thus we downgrade

Saying that the Universe broke the sound barrier, wouldn't be that far fetched. When it did, these events took place.
But then again, we just plain out don't know, and I would rather look for the answers then say "I have faith in god, he did it" and learn nothing.

No offense, if you believe in God GREAT, if you don't thats GREAT to.

.....Don't flame me

Crediting God for being the creator does not stunt our growth. It fuels our desires and passion to discover all of his creative works.

What if our ultimate potential is to know and understand God, which includes knowing and understanding everything He created in the universe? Did you ever consider that?