Impossibility of the universe

reply to post by Jim Scott

he objects may have dispersed at 5 times the speed of light

Doesn't happen. Nothing with mass can accelerate to C, much less surpass it. If something were to accelerate that much, it's mass would become infinite, and as anyone who has done collision physics knows, that would be very very bad.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
reply to post by randomiser

 

You are correct in your analysis of the OP, and one thing should be added: the position of these stellar objects could not have occurred in 800 million years even if they traveled at the speed of light.

I certainly don't understand much about astronomy, but I agree with you here; perhaps under a different set of circumstances, though.

As the Hubble telscope orbited the Earth for the 4 months, I assume it collected the data in a series of photographs (happening at what interval, I don't know).

Depending on the position of each galaxy and their 'drift' or 'drag' in each photo, on could probably assume it's approximate location at some undetermined time. But wouldn't they have to use a "reference galaxy" to correctly identify the correct distance between the 10,000 galaxies contained entirely within the Hubbles field of view?

Also, wouldn't the Hubble have to pivot constantly to maintain it's line-of-sight over it's (nearly) 1/2 orbit around Earth? And if that's the case, it's focal point would have to be brought into question too. Whatever was beyond that focal point would have to be captured in an equal, but opposite, view from Hubble's orbit.

Perhaps it would look something like this:



Of course, this is in the worst-case-senario of orbit trajectory versus location of target. The focal point might have been available the entire time.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
I would like to propose an idea based on the E=MC^2: the objects may have dispersed at 5 times the speed of light while still in an energy state, lost enough energy to form into matter, then, as matter, began coalescing under the law of gravity.

In this case, the amount of energy it would require to propel that matter at that speed would be fantastic.

The question then becomes, at which point does energy coalescing become a galaxy? Once it has maintained a state of matter, it should no longer be superlunimal...the amount of time required to form a galaxy though more than likely is determined by the amount of matter and the rate that it cools. The math required for that is currently beyond my understanding and I can merely speculate.

I think the universe is a vast information system where all information is processed instantaneously via the medium of light, and so, from the perspective of the quantum "mind" of the universe, every aspect of the entire configuration, from galactic superstructures to a blade of grass, is known with absolute precision, the inverse of the asbolute uncertainty on this side of the veil.

The things in the universe are not flying apart through space, as has been depicted here.

The galaxies are stuck in a universe that is itself expanding. The motions the galaxies make through space itself are determined by the gravitational forces on them, while at the same time, the space they are sitting in is expanding. It is this expansion that is forcing the galaxies apart, not motion through space.

Hence, the Earth is not the "center" of anything.

There is no "spot" that is the "center of the universe."


Harte

reply to post by Revolution-2012

First of all, science is stupid to say they know how old the universe is, when we can't even fathom the edge of the universe, if there even is anyone.

To say god must of god must of is equally illogical, we are incapable of understanding the universe, how in the hell would we be able to understand a god?

Good points! So then we can also say that it shows ignorance in saying there is no power with consciousness due to the FACT that we know so little.

We know that about 70% of the universe is invisible and filled with dark matter and other substances and it keeps the visible universe in alignment!!

Logic and brilliant minds would then deduce; we know so little, how can we in our limited minds and universal knowledge state unequivocally that there is no God? Common sense (one would think) would tell us that we show our ignorance regarding God when we cannot even understand the limits or the make-up of the entire universe not even considering other universe's!

what we see with Hubble is similar to the thunder which we hear several seconds after the lightning. it takes "some" time for both events to reach us.

we only see 13.7 or so years of universe around us because the light of those objects is just now reaching us from that "lightning" that was the big bang. but the universe is much bigger than 13.7 bil ly. just think of a flashlight that only covers a small cone of light while the darkness of night still surrounds you. it does not mean that the world around you stops existing, it's just that you don't see it. similarly the universe is also much bigger but the light from those far away parts has not reached us and by the time it does i would assume the sun (and our species) would not be anymore.

the universe expands faster than light not because objects are moving/accelerating at those speeds. it's space itself that is expanding like a big balloon that you blow air into. the dots on the balloon just move farther apart but those dots don't really move on the surface of the balloon. OK in case of the universe, galaxies do move but compared to the speed of the universe expansion it's almost as being fixed.

funny thing this universe around us. make the economy look irrelevant huh

reply to post by DarkSecret


I was reading an article a while back that was talking about how the 13.7 billion year light barrier is now being considered by scientists not as the edge of the universe but the horizon of the visible universe, and that galaxies are to be found stretching beyond the horizon for who knows how far.

The universe may be curved, but it's not thought to be limited to our line of sight any more.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

I was reading an article a while back that was talking about how the 13.7 billion year light barrier is now being considered by scientists not as the edge of the universe but the horizon of the visible universe, and that galaxies are to be found stretching beyond the horizon for who knows how far.

The universe may be curved, but it's not thought to be limited to our line of sight any more.

if we could somehow move to a place at the edge of our 13.7 bil ly sphere that we see "now" we would see another 13.7 bil ly sphere with our galaxy at the edge of that sphere. of course we would see our baby galaxy as it was 13.7 bil ly ago.

i think if the universe were to be curved there would be some strangeness at the edges that we would see where those galaxies disappear below the horizon, just like ships first show their masts before you can actually see the whole ship on the sea. of course it could also be that the light has not reached us yet from those parts that would confirm the curvature. if the universe is "flat" then it will be around forever but if it's curved it's assumed it will crunch back into a singularity (probably hundreds of billions of years from now).

why are all the best threads never on the front burner!! "shrugs"

neways.. the problem we have is how small we are and how the universe works and who made it and yes it was made.. "dont put me in a god box please"

But something made this happen.. when we look at the universe using whatever means we have it will GET BIGGER.. the more you look the bigger it gets lol..

there is no way to find the edge "it dont have one".. so why keep looking? for all we know based on our limited preception the universe already ended ! "i know that sounds bizzar" but the amount of time it takes to look at something far away 13billion watevers away they just aint there no more the way we see em.

its not the size, its the question..

why ask infinity to answer the question when in itself would be a controdiction?

a question asking a question is not a good way to start imo lol

reply to post by DarkSecret


At this stage it doesn't seem that the gravity incurred by all the matter in the universe is going to be enough to counteract the dark energy which is causing the increasing rate at which the universe is expanding, so it is believed that the universe will die in a pitch black empty expanse of emptiness.

Also the math done on the 'shape' of the universe has shown that is has no edges and that you could travel forever and eventually run out of places to occupy that you haven't been to before, similar to trying to sail to the edge of the earth, you'll just keep going over your own tracks.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

At this stage it doesn't seem that the gravity incurred by all the matter in the universe is going to be enough to counteract the dark energy which is causing the increasing rate at which the universe is expanding, so it is believed that the universe will die in a pitch black empty expanse of emptiness.

Also the math done on the 'shape' of the universe has shown that is has no edges and that you could travel forever and eventually run out of places to occupy that you haven't been to before, similar to trying to sail to the edge of the earth, you'll just keep going over your own tracks.

it's probably safe to assume that our universe will collide with another one and create a new big bang which will "restart" it from the cold darkness that will be in 100 bil years. of course the reborn universe will most likely not have the same laws of physics that we observe now. i'd assume that "before" the big bang our universe had different laws too, who knows if there ever was intelligent life back then or will be after the next bang.

it's fascinating though that we know so little about dark energy/matter yet they make up 95% of our universe...

reply to post by DarkSecret


95% of our universe...

Try 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% then your getting close.

you cant mesure something that is not mesureble.. its never ment to be measured

can you measure a question? futile.. dont bother

humans are trying to quantify the question. the question is infanint that is the problem not the universe .. just our lack of understanding

i wish we would stop asking and just look at wtf we are in for a moment..

look out ur window.. that is OUR problem US the universe works fine we are the problem, once you understand LIFE "you mind" is the reflection of the universe itself you will come to terms with your place.

when you think of something in your head and get make the answer = life

the question is the methord the question IS the universe


we dont know WHO asked the question ; )

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

95% of our universe...

Try 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% then your getting close.

you cant mesure something that is not mesureble.. its never ment to be measured

can you measure a question? futile.. dont bother

humans are trying to quantify the question. the question is infanint that is the problem not the universe .. just our lack of understanding

i wish we would stop asking and just look at wtf we are in for a moment..

look out ur window.. that is OUR problem US the universe works fine we are the problem, once you understand LIFE "you mind" is the reflection of the universe itself you will come to terms with your place.

when you think of something in your head and get make the answer = life

the question is the methord the question IS the universe


we dont know WHO asked the question ; )

i didn't make up those numbers. they come out of equations far above my willingness to spend time to understand. it could also be that there are errors or parts of the theory of gravity is wrong. thus we have to use a cosmological constant that we call dark matter/energy to make the equations reflect what we see in the telescope... either way i personally understand the cosmological part of the universe and find it fascinating but i try to stay away from advanced math that describes it.

humans are born explorers among other things. not being willing or able to conduct mind experiments and to be fascinated by things we don't know for sure is very bad for an individual or a species. cows and chicken just eat and grow until we harvest them for food. we humans on the other hand are hopefully more than that. we ask questions and don't rest until we have some answer. then we ask more questions. and so on... the universe is infinite and so is our quest to understand it

reply to post by DarkSecret


I'm reluctant to say how much of the universe is dark matter, the number keeps changing from between 70% to upwards of 99%. The most commonly one is 90%. Anyway that is besides the point.

The thing is that as our bubble of a universe collides with another, it's difficult to imagine what will happen per Laws and constants of physics. The bubble is expanding which means others will be too, but likely others may be shrinking - going to experience the big crunch.

What I find interesting is the question "What will the universes do when they meet?" It has occurred to me that they may not collide due to some crazy form of attractive and repulsive charges - thinking string theory and how a vibration in the fabric of space = energy = mass, and that these vibrations work with similar behaviours as interfering sound waves (hence matter and dark matter or energy and dark energy).

As the universes expand so too may the plane on which the universes sit (if it's not already boundless) so this universe may never be prompted to restart in a collision. - These are pure supposition however. The reality of what sits outside of our universe's curve, whilst enthralling, is ultimately of no concern to us cockroaches and our fleeting lifespans and dismally pathetic attempts at society.

reply to post by DarkSecret


and don't you find it odd that we are asking a question that in fact has no answer?

look at this paradox

we are asking why are we here, but yet the universe as we understand it is infinant?

what is happening in this? well the paradox is what is happening.. we are questioning something that has no answer lol??

I mean cmon im not dumb here but that alone as alarmbells ringing in my head and always has

the problem is the very question we are asking...

Let me "ask" you this

what do you entend to do when you get the answer?

that is my point.. its POINTLESS TO ASK in the first place.. and here is a quote

what is the meaning of life


look at that statement close very very very close you look at the first word?

WHAT = question

that is the meaning of life the question NOT the answer

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by DarkSecret

 

and don't you find it odd that we are asking a question that in fact has no answer?

that is my point.. its POINTLESS TO ASK in the first place.. and here is a quote

my point is that i want to know. all the wonderful things that i see "up there" must have an explanation. i could just accept that the universe IS or that it was created. but i need to know how it works. I've always taken things apart (and usually put them back) to understand what's behind the magic. it's the same with the universe. some people feel this urge more than others. so we ask more questions than others which can become annoying. it does not matter if there's no answer. the quest is all that matters.

reply to post by DarkSecret


yes i can see what you are saying but try to understand what it is i am pointing out here..

Understanding is not the same thing as a question..

If we look at our understanding of what we are as people as life.. forget god forget aliens just you and me.. what is it we do? we ask..

now this does alot of things without you or me even thinking about it.. if we keep asking why why why

what will be the outcome of this WHY? you will become god? is that the humans final goal? to become the very thing that created our entier being?

is there something im missiing in this pardox i find myself in? yes there is..

the question is the paradox the question is infinity its chaos..


you see if you want to understand the universe you need humiltiy and understand we are in a paradox that is selfreplicating and we will never get to the end "there aint no end"..

accept your place not question it.. questions are horrid little things

But understanding what a question is "that is key"

you can minupulate a person via a responce just by asking a question

The goverments do this.. the ask questions from us to keep us asking into "infinity" untell they deem it fit to choose another

If you know the question you already know the outcome

look at the stars.. they are not a joke that is your mind on show..

the very question you ask IS real ITS THE UNIVERSE

its a physical representation of the very question you ask "thats why its infanant"

Who is asking the question is the problem ; ) "thats why we have god" coz we dont know WHO is asking,..

reply to post by Jim Scott


God was the bringer of rain at a time.
God was the bringer of death at some time.
God was the bringer of life at some time.

He still is according to some.

Every concern that "God" gets disproved at, moves on to the next complicated thing no one knows, while Science has taught us things and brought us great inventions.

About the speed of light and distance from us etc...look at it this way.

Put two dots on a rubber band. Stretch it out. They will be farther apart because there is more "space" between them. They themselves did not move.

Also also about the speed of light being the definite answer to the maximum speed of anything...
www.cbc.ca...

So if it has been broken already, who knows what can happen next.

Keep in mind science is not exact all the time, but offers the best explanation. In my mind, God was at the very start of science...just an age old explanation. We have moved on to more logical explanations...or at least most of us.

And some of us are simply open minded enough to consider the possibility that the universe was created by, enveloped within, and infused by, a self aware conscious being or universal spirit of infinite intelligence that is all powerful and embued with a perfect will, a God of light and love who upholds and collapses the universal wave of probability, so that the moon is still there, even when we are not looking at it.

The problem people seem to have is with their contempt and prejudice towards the word God, and the fact that God is by nature beyond human comprehension. However, the manifestations and eminations of God are there. Think of God as the mystery of the nothingness from which everything that is emerges and has its being, and that one must think of the "realm" as "God" given the aspects of creativity and intelligence, and will or intent. Do some googling and investigation on sacred geometry for starters, and you may begin to understand why many people believe in a supreme being,. creator, and architect of the universe.

Or, you can subscribe to the random fluxuation argument if you like, but it just doesn't seem to hold much water, the idea that we are here, sitting on an infinite causation that occured by chance and nothing more. To me, that's much more absurd than the God hypothesis.

And for those who haven't noticed, modern scientists are now becoming more like metaphysical high priests of ancient mystery traditions, now that the Newtonian worldview is passing from the scene. In many ways "science", for a time, ruined the world for man, by deluding him into accepting the illusion of seperation, of then and when, of here and there, by making us think, falsely, that the universe is like a machine which functions as something entirely separate from our perceptions and evaluations. Even Einstein's obliteration of a universal now, contributed to the misconception.


"There is a principal which acts as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer

P.S. And I am a Christian believer - but do not assume we're all fundamentalist literalists fearful of scientific discovery. I want to know the truth, and reality of life, along with it's meaning and purpose, if one can be discerned, as much as anyone, but I have to say it really peeves me off, the amount of presumptuous prejudice that exist out there towards the believer, largely born of the ignorance of American 'Churchianity'.

[edit on 20-4-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint

And some of us are simply open minded enough to consider the possibility that the universe was created by, enveloped within, and infused by, a self aware conscious being or universal spirit of infinite intelligence that is all powerful and embued with a perfect will, a God of light and love who upholds and collapses the universal wave of probability, so that the moon is still there, even when we are not looking at it.

... and some of us aren't going to make rash leaps of faith based on nothing to our own comfortable conclusions.