Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Woohoo, now richer Americans can go ahead and enjoy the poor prostitutes, both male and female, that Canadians, and other Europeans have been enjoying...

Well if that isn't one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read here. Canadians and other Europeans?

I've got news for ya. Canada isn't in Europe.

Yes, Canadians and Europeans (99% of whom are friends of ours) have been enjoying Cuba all along. But generally speaking, mothers and fathers who take their children for a beautiful holiday in a stunningly beautiful island country aren't looking for prostitutes. I thought you were above a comment like that. I'm really wondering why the sour grapes?

Originally posted by Albertarocks

Well if that isn't one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read here. Canadians and other Europeans?

I've got news for ya. Canada isn't in Europe.

Yes, Canadians and Europeans (99% of whom are friends of ours) have been enjoying Cuba all along. But generally speaking, mothers and fathers who take their children for a beautiful holiday in a stunningly beautiful island country aren't looking for prostitutes. I thought you were above a comment like that. I'm really wondering why the sour grapes?

I never said that Canada is part of Europe... Can you not understand by now that English is not my first, nor second, language?...

If you try to dismiss what I have to say by picking on my statements, then you are surely an ignorant person, and not me.

BTW, if you read my entire response I also wrote about regular tourists who do not partake on prostitution but still give money to the government through the government owned tourist stores, bars, hotels, and restaurants..

If I were you, I would first fully read what someone says before you jump on them...



[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Good job Obama, finally a couple of good things are coming America's way the last few days. Now the next overdue common sense thing this country needs to do is legalize and tax marijuana.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]

Cool, does this mean we can now purchase Cuban cigars legally?

They are incredibly good... um, I've heard anyway.

Originally posted by Albertarocks

I understand! I apologize if you were offended... my own words were a bit harsh. Honestly, when I saw the words "Canadian" and "using prostitutes" in the same sentence I got a little feisty because I thought you were suggesting that's all Canadians and Europeans go to Cuba for.

I'll take a little more time to read in the future. You're right!

It's ok, I also apologize if you felt I insulted you, it was not what i meant to say from the beginning.

I know there are regular people around the world who don't know what happens in countries like Cuba outside from what the dictatorial regime tries to show tourists, or the world, and I know most regular people do not partake in such things as prostitution. Still there is such a problem, and tourism in general does not really help the Cuban people. Cubans keep getting paid a measly amount of money, unless they can get tips without the supervisors seeing this.

Tourism for the most part in countries like Cuba only give more money to the government owned industries, and not for the regular people.

However, if what is being said in Spanish circles about this lifting on some sactions is true, then those Cubans who have family outside the island will benefit, as well as the Cuban families living in the U.S.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
When people don't have enough money to eat, or feed their kids they will do almost anything

Any proof that people are starving in Cuba? Where are you getting this nonesense. People are poor, just like in the Dominican Republic and Jamaica, but they are not starving.

Fun Fact - did you know that Cubans' life expectancy is among the highest in Western Hemisphere, and is higher than that in the US?

As for prostitution - it is no different in other third world countries popular with tourists: Dominican Republic, Mexico, Thailand, etc.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
In the U.S. those women that are in prostution for the most part do it because they make more money, or they like it...

Well I'd say money comes first, second, and third. And the same goes for Cuba. Or do you think Castro is a master pimp driving around in his purple suit on a Cadillac Eldorado and beating prostitutes with a walking stick to get their money?

Prostitution is the same the world over - communism, democracy, aristocracy, anarchy.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Do not compare apples to oranges, and yes I was born in Cuba, grew up there until i was 8 ears old there, and visited my family back in 2001, and still have family there

If you really are a Cuban American, wouldn't you want to be able to travel to see your relatives and help them financially? What has the travel ban done other than stop this?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
As a tourist you only saw the tourist parts of the island, and not the real Cuba.

I didn't fly half way around the globe to Cuba to sit on the beach and sip martinis all day surrounded by French Canadians and Germans - I can go to Turkey, Greece or Egypt for that. I went mostly to see Havana and see what the differences are between Soviet Russia and Cuba. I sidetracked considerably from regular tourist destinations. I have to say that I have seen worse poverty and desperation in Domican Republic and Jamaica.

I realize that the country would flourish considerably if the communist regime is removed. But embargoes will not work to achieve that - not the least bit.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
BTW, in Communism the government OWNS everything....so tell me how do the people gain from the government getting all the money from tourism...

As I said - it is not like the government is throwing all of the money away to buy weapons or build golden palaces for Castro. It trickles down to the people some way or other.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
I am the one that can say for certainty you have never seen the real Cuba

I believe what I have seen comes pretty close to "real Cuba". You won't find me particularly appauled or surprised because I have lived in Soviet Russia and Ukraine, and I have visited a number of Third World countries.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
and by now it is clear from your responses and posts that you like to excuse Communist regimes

I understand where they come from and what their goals are, but I do not excuse them. I supported the toppling of the Communist regime in Russia and Ukraine. I am deeply troubled by the communist regime in North Korea and China. And I have never favored Castro's reforms.


It will not solve any problems to simply call them evil and place an embargo on them. This "poke it with a stick" strategy won't make the communists go away or make people's lives any better. I believe that the way to deal with communist regimes in hopes of their eventual demise, is to open restrictions and pressure the government by other more effective methods instead ("carrots instead of sticks"). With a right strategy you can undermine the government and cause it to collapse from within.

These regimes are held together by total dominance over the economics of the country. If you can introduce just a bit of capitalist innitiatives, the house of cards will start to collapse.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
and never having experienced it as a regular person suppressed in a Communist regime.

Again you don't know a thing about my experiences in the Soviet Union. Don't think that I am oblivious to the faults of communism-socialism. As for way to undermine communist regimes - you can only gain an understanding of their inherent weaknesses by looking at things from their point of view and understanding what keeps them in power.

Originally posted by maloy
Any proof that people are starving in Cuba? Where are you getting this nonesense. People are poor, just like in the Dominican Republic and Jamaica, but they are not starving.

I lived in the country, and still have family there, as well as friends who had to tell me the things they had to go through under the Communist regime....

As an adult i spent 6 months with my family, and saw the things they had to do to get food because the Cuban "bodegas" often times are empty and people have to go to the black market...many Cubans do not have the means to go to the black market to get food, and I know of Cubans who have had to go without eating for a week or more because they could not find anything good to eat...

BTW, children and adults still harvest food, ant tobacco which is sold and send to other countries, including contries which are on the "Revolitionary path", instead of the food going to the people in Cuba...

Most Cubans are far worse than people in the Dominican Republic, and BTW people in Jamaica are starving, but I guess you want to disprove this too.....

Originally posted by maloy
Fun Fact - did you know that Cubans' life expectancy is among the highest in Western Hemisphere, and is higher than that in the US?

Yeah, a fun fact that comes directly from the Communist dictatorship and in fact is not true in the least...

You show me one truly independent Human Rights Group that has been able to go to the island, and corroborate the claims of the Communist dictatorship without the dictatorship giving them these facts, and the government allowing truly independent research..

If you go to Cuba, and you tell them you are from a Human Rights group, and that you want to film what the real Cuban people are going through, you will be immediately expelled, and if a police, or another authority that is part of the regime sees a tourist filming the real Cuba, your video, and pictures will be confiscated, and you can be accused of trying to overthrow the government...

Originally posted by maloy
As for prostitution - it is no different in other third world countries popular with tourists: Dominican Republic, Mexico, Thailand, etc.

I never said it doesn't exist in oher parts of the world, but when people are starving, and can't get much money, yet there are tourists that will give them money for sexual favors, prostitution increases in such nations...

Originally posted by maloy
Well I'd say money comes first, second, and third. And the same goes for Cuba. Or do you think Castro is a master pimp driving around in his purple suit on a Cadillac Eldorado and beating prostitutes with a walking stick to get their money?

You think that by you making a mockery of my experiences on the island make you right?... no they make you an ignorant person.

Originally posted by maloy
If you really are a Cuban American, wouldn't you want to be able to travel to see your relatives and help them financially? What has the travel ban done other than stop this?

Read my statements again...

Originally posted by maloy
I didn't fly half way around the globe to Cuba to sit on the beach and sip martinis all day surrounded by French Canadians and Germans - I can go to Turkey, Greece or Egypt for that.

Sorry but you are wrong. In the real Cuba there are no street cats, or dogs because the people have eaten them, the few that remain are owned by people.

In the real Cuba there are mountains of trash as high as a one floor building, and the buildings are in shabbles about to fall off. That's without counting the Cubans who live in plastic, or metal houses that come down with the first small hurricane that goes through the island...

In the real Cuba people have to go through hell to find food for their families, and many do not find enough food, or any at all at times..

Originally posted by maloy
I realize that the country would flourish considerably if the communist regime is removed. But embargoes will not work to achieve that - not the least bit.

When embargoes are done on a regime that owns all infraestructures the embargoe helps to put a stronghold on the dictatorship.

Originally posted by maloy
As I said - it is not like the government is throwing all of the money away to buy weapons or build golden palaces for Castro. It trickles down to the people some way or other.

No, the Cuban regime sends help, food and money to other countries that are fighting for the "revolution", meanwhile Cubans go hungry, or go through hell to get enough food for their families...

BTW, castro does have several mansions in Cuba, and doesn't stay in one for long.

Originally posted by Maloy
I believe what I have seen comes pretty close to "real Cuba". You won't find me particularly appauled or surprised because I have lived in Soviet Russia and Ukraine, and I have visited a number of Third World countries.

Your responses show that you do not know it even if you claim you do.

Originally posted by Maloy
I understand where they come from and what their goals are, but I do not excuse them. I supported the toppling of the Communist regime in Russia and Ukraine. I am deeply troubled by the communist regime in North Korea and China. And I have never favored Castro's reforms.

Yet your responses seem to show the contrary.

Originally posted by Maloy
It will not solve any problems to simply call them evil and place an embargo on them. This "poke it with a stick" strategy won't make the communists go away or make people's lives any better.

What won't solve the problem is by giving the dictatorship more money through tourism.

Originally posted by Maloy
These regimes are held together by total dominance over the economics of the country. If you can introduce just a bit of capitalist innitiatives, the house of cards will start to collapse.

What holds these regimes together is the willingess of nations to give moeny to the dictatorship, as another example look at North Korea. Whenever Kim has a tantrum he expects Europeans and other countries to give him money which never helps the people, but only allow for the dictatorship to stay in power.


[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by maloy
Again you don't know a thing about my experiences in the Soviet Union. Don't think that I am oblivious to the faults of communism-socialism. As for way to undermine communist regimes - you can only gain an understanding of their inherent weaknesses by looking at things from their point of view and understanding what keeps them in power.

Seen things the Communist point of view will help the people in Communist regimes?...

Not really...

I just heard on NPR that this ban on travel applies only to Cuban-Americans... it still is in force for the rest of us.... for the time being.

is this a good idea?? i dont think so

if cuba was such a great place why for 50 years have cubans fled????

not to mention all this was started by democrats almost blew into a nuclear holocoust.

dont make the cia the scapegoat here cause they did answer to the sitting presidentt at the time.

This is not a certain plus for the people of Cuba. My family members have traveled back a number of times over the decades and the big winners from those visits were the government inspectors at the airport. Obama will enable more people to visit and the Cuban government will be the big winner. There is no trickle down there. American businessmen without Cuban family ties will travel there to take advantage of the cheap prostitution that is rampant. They do it now, many more will do it soon. Communist government, cheap sex, cheap cigars and much closer than the orient. The perfect vacation spot for the Gore Vidal wannabe.