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New to the site.....some ignorance!

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posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 12:20 PM
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Hey guys,
I love this site. Lots of useful information. However, with so many intelligent, well researched threads on various topics there are some very closed minded, moronic, and downright false assumptions with absolutely no research behind them at all. My beef is with the recent milk threads.

I've been drinking raw milk for 2+ years. It's an amazing food just how nature intended. Raw milk is VERY much illegal to buy in most states. Out here in CA the people have fought tooth and nail for their right to consume this amazing food. Other states it's very much illegal. Also there is a huge diffeence between pasteurized and raw milk from healthy pastured cows. Yes pasteurized milk can cause all types of health problems and it's not just because of hormones in milk, it's from the pasteurization process itself. But to draw conclusions from pasteurzied milk and apply them to all things dairy and and milk flies in the face of honest research and intelligent thought. Raw and fermented dairy products have been used by hundreds of cultures for a long time.

But there will always bee some moron who will quote www.quackwatch.org instead of doing their own research.

www.raw-milk-facts.com




posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 12:31 PM
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I've never heard of raw milk described in such a way. I am a big fan of soy milk though and I tend to leave the rest on the shelf.

I have noticed the price range in basic milk to be from $2,86 to about $6.05+. The color is usually bright white to vanilla. So is the cheap milk watered down or not milk at all?

How does raw milk look to you is it vanilla in color or bright snow white?



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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When I was a young 'un in Scotland I drank cow's milk direct regularly . No big deal , it was just milk . There are no super foods and no junk foods . It's all fuel driving you on to more important things , like living for instance . Dried instant milk tastes nice chilled . I was not breast fed as a baby so I could be biased.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 02:23 PM
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I don't understand your beef with those posts. Now, I have not read them so I don't know, but are you upset at the posts or the fact raw milk is illegal?

It is illegal for a reason, and none of those legal reasons are closed minded, moronic, ect ect...

Raw milk may taste better to some, and have some health benefits; however it does have health risks. Those risks go down depending on the cow's diet and the dairy it comes from, but certain risks will always be there. That is why it is illegal, no matter how low those risks are, they do exist.

Typhoid and tuberculosis are controlled by pasteurization. But since certain pathogens cannot be eliminated because so many animals carry them, pasteurization is the safe way to go, hence making raw milk illegal.

It isn't being closed minded, or moronic at all. It is simply taking the path with the least amount of risk for the general public. It isn't just 1 or 2 people who get sick, consuming raw dairy products have caused outbreaks of diseases. These are documented by the CDC and readily available to the general public to view.

Just because something has been done for over 100 years, doesn't mean it is the best way to go.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 02:30 PM
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What a load of brainwashed propagandized bull. Whether the milk is raw or pasteurized it is still subject to testing for pathogens and toxins. THAT is what makes it safe. Its not like there is no regulation on the sale of raw milk in areas where it is legal. What do you think, that there are no government inspections on raw foods?



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


No, that isn't what makes it safe. We KNOW certain pathogens exist in raw milk. That is why it goes through the pasteurization process, to remove them. Then it is tested.

I don't understand why people get so offended over things like this. It's illegal, and there are reasons for it. Simple true facts. If you want it to become legal, then you need to address what makes those facts true. Start testing the cow's feed. Start monitoring the dairy where the milk is made. Increase testing of the raw product. Monitor the storage of the product. Then, raw milk may be safe for the general public (then again, it may not). But remember, once that is done, the price will sky rocket. Then people will complain because it's legal, but more expensive than pasteurized milk; look at the cost of organic food now. They follow stricter rules and cost more because of tests.

If it is somehow easier to complain, insult, and outright act all knowing, then by all means do it; because most people will anyway. But if you really want change, then take the actions to make change.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 03:05 PM
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Here in New Mexico all milk offered for sale must be pasteurized period end of story... Of course most got around that problem by trading or exchanging of gifts for raw milk....

Now the funny thing is this law was rarely enforced until a few years ago... see a woman was trying to sell her own breast milk...
no not as something erotic but to other ladies who didnt produce enough for their own baby... Anyway...
someone got all huffy and called the county health services and they dusted off this old law no one paid much attention too...

Still we see ads for raw goat and cow milk all the time posted on cregslist, but place an ad for mothers milk and you can expect a SWAT and Biohazard cleanup team on your doorstep, go figure...

Oh Yeah the quick edit was I forgot to say welcome to ATS


[edit on 13-4-2009 by DaddyBare]



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by longdog
When I was a young 'un in Scotland I drank cow's milk direct regularly . No big deal , it was just milk . There are no super foods and no junk foods . It's all fuel driving you on to more important things , like living for instance . Dried instant milk tastes nice chilled . I was not breast fed as a baby so I could be biased.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. *Snip* It's a FACT breast feeding is much healthier than bottle feeding PERIOD! Again it's also FACT certain foods boost the body's immunity, vitality and overall health. If you think there are no superfoods I feel very sorry for you. No there is no ONE superfood that will squash all our health problems and what not but Nutrition plays a HUGE part in health in human beings and there most certainly are superfoods. *Snip* and how much our food industry is controlled and polluted. In fact just take grass fed beef vs. regular old meat. It is lower in saturated fat and MUCH higher in CLA. CLA has many health benefits.

*Snip* I suggest you look at www.organicpastures.com for an example of just how UNINFORMED you are about raw milk. Of course you're not going to be able to drink the milk from confinement cows who's milk is destined for pasteurization. That milk is tainted due to the health of the cow. Most cows from dairy farms are loaded with antibiotics because they are all diseased and unhealthy. Tons of cows have mastitis as well which directly contaminates the milk.

As far as tuberculosis there hasn't been a US cow to have bovine tuberculosis for decades. It doesn't exist. Kind of like the plague being found in humans. If cows are healthy their milk is healthy. In fact there are so many beneficial bacteria found in raw milk it's almost IMPOSSIBLE for pathogenic bacteria to grow in raw milk. Lactic Acid found in high concentrations in raw milk is a natural antibiotic. Trust me mother nature knows a lot more than you do about the human body and health and nutrition.

And no I'm not pissed about raw milk being illegal because in CA. it is sold in many grocery stores. *Snip* I mean to say there is no such thing as superfood? LMAO! I just find it hilarious that a board that talks about secret bases in Dulce, NM, goverment conspiracies, UFO's has a hard time believing the benefits of raw milk and that the government lies about our food supply.

OH and to the other poster SOY milk is TERRIBLE FOR YOU! I suggest you look into how it is processed. How could you EVER argue that something heated and sterilized to death is more nutritious than something that comes fresh from a cow? LMAO! THanks for proving my point in the previous paragraph.

Mod Edit: Review This Link: Civility And Decorum Are Required on AboveTopSecret.com: We Don't Post Link There Here

[edit on 4/14/2009 by semperfortis]



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 03:32 PM
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I've been puked out for a few years, as the lady who supplied me with whole, raw milk died, and I can't find it around here anymore.

I don't know about the benefits, I don't know about the benefit/harm done by Pasteurizing.

All I know is that the taste was unbelievable, and the whole milk I've been forced to drink since is like drinking colored water.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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shadowlord, thats exactly my point....which you missed apparently. As you say the milk is pasteurized...then tested. Or the milk is Unpasteurized...and then tested. Its TESTED EITHER WAY! Hello?! get it? so whether its pasteurized OR unpasteurized, it must pass the same tests of minimal pathogens. SO, both milks passing strict testing for microbes, you are no more likely to catch a disease from raw milk than you are from pasteurized milk.

Further, raw milk already costs much more than pasteurized milk, and as you say organic foods do as well...but thats not totally due to cost of non industrialized creation. It also has to do with massive legislations from corporate industry groups that penalize small farms in order to limit their own competition.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
Also there is a huge diffeence between pasteurized and raw milk from healthy pastured cows. Yes pasteurized milk can cause all types of health problems and it's not just because of hormones in milk, it's from the pasteurization process itself.


What the hell? Do you even know what pasteurizing is?

Please enlighten us all, to how heating and cooling milk rapidly causes adverse health reactions?

You have far more chance of becoming sick from bacteria in raw milk, regardless of wether the cow is healthy or not....



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 12:17 AM
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When I was a kid my grandfather had a couple of milk cows. I'd spend a couple of weeks every summer at his place. Every morning I'd follow him out and watch him milk the cows into a galvanized bucket. My mom would first strain the milk through cheesecloth then heat it for about half an hour in a double boiler. She would then cool it with cold water before putting it in the refrigerator.

Whole milk. Home pasteurized. That milk was the best I've ever tasted. It sure wasn't 2%!



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 12:44 AM
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I've never liked milk that much unless it was ice cold and served in a bowl with cereal. And I'm not in a position to say who is right or wrong in the thread up to this point. But there are a couple things I do know about milk. First, it's created primarily by female mammals as a means to nourish their young until they reach a certain age. After that the young no longer feed on the mother's milk.

Humans are the only species which consume the milk of other species. Now, I'm sure there are times when animals consume the milk of another species, but I've only ever heard of that going on when humans are involved, such as when animals are in captivity. My point is that in nature, mammals do not consume the milk of other species. So we humans are alone in that we do ingest milk from other species.

So we drink milk from other animals and we do it long after we're past the age of needing to nurse from our mother's breast. I'm not saying that there's anything dreadfully wrong with drinking a tall glass of milk. But I like to think that the things other creatures of this planet do shouldn't be ignored. There must be a reason that only the young drink milk only from their mothers.

Just something to think about.

If that big glass of milk is appealing to you, be it raw or pasteurized, then drink up. I'll pass though...unless there are some Frosted Flakes involved.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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Ok a few notes here. The acceptance that something should be made illegal to eat because it may pose health risks is a fallacy. If this were a truth than all fast food and HFCS and other things such as MSG and artificial sweeteners should be illegal. All of which is besides the point as THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO RIGHT TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN CHOOSE TO PUT INTO OUR OWN BODIES. It has become accepted as common practice for them to do so because its been going on for so long now that its taken for granted, but its just as wrong now as it was then. I am a FREE HUMAN and as such reserve the right to ingest anything i like, not just the currently approved dietary curriculum of our government, most of which is imposed through corporate lobbying and legislation.

Now as to how pasteurization can make milk dangerous. Studies have now linked asthma, arthritis, allergies, and other autoimmune disorders to large consumption of dairy products during childhood. Humans are unable to digest lactose, and this is what leads to the large reactions many have to milk. Milk comes out of the cow with lactase, the enzyme responsible for the breakdown and digestion of milk, but this enzyme is destroyed in pasteurization, causing the milk to not breakdown when consumed so 1)you get few of the nutrients available in the milk anyhow, and 2) the body often rejects it since it cant digest it.
However, studies have shown that many people who are lactose intolerant can actually consume raw milk and raw milk products without adverse reactions.
Most farmers can tell you that baby cows given a diet of pasteurized milk will die, while they thrive on raw milk.

They even had a study with cats where one group was fed a diet of raw milk, and the other of pasteurized milk. The cats fed the raw milk thrived, while the cats fed pasteurized milk suffered nutritional deficiencies, illnesses and premature death. The study went on several generations, and the cats on raw milk reproduced fine. The cats on pasteurized milk had premature babies, babies with nutritional deficiencies, and eventually sterile babies.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:41 AM
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Don't worry too much about milk.

Milk is a product of evolution in the mammalian line as sustenance for babies. Humans, cows, whales, weasels, squirrels, bears..... one characteristic of mammals is the female development of nutrient-rich breast milk as a source of food for their offspring.

Milk is awesome.

Ok, drinking modern commercial grocery-store cow's milk as an adult is not the same as drinking your mother's breast milk as a baby.

Cattle are pumped full of chemicals. Their milk is processed to maintain the commercial viability. It's not as pure as good natural milk... and obviously COW MILK is NOT evolved to sustain humans... it was evolved to sustain baby cattle. It's chemical make-up was evolved to sustain the growth of young cattle, which have a different physiology and biological needs from human babies.

Of course cow milk (processed or pure) is not meant for humans.

It does have its benefits of calcium and vitamins, from what I have gathered, and it's not all bad.

Just be aware that human females produce breast milk for human babies... and cows produce udder milk for cow babies... different milks with slightly different chemical compositions to best benefit the development of their offspring.

Milk is not evil... it is way healthier than drinking cocacola or redbull. Just be aware that not all milks are equal.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 10:01 AM
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calcium and vitamins from what you have gathered. And naturally where do most people do the gathering of info on milk? Why from commercials of course...commercials made to Sell milk. Of course, you need vitamin D to absorb calcium from the diet...so what do the milk people do? They put synthetic vitamin D into the milk, as if synthetic vitamins are at all like their natural counterparts. What is vitamin D known to do? oh, yeah, cause cancer! how helpful they are for us.

Strange how the US and Norway, the worlds 2 largest milk drinking countries, have the highest rates of osteo porosis



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
shadowlord, thats exactly my point....which you missed apparently. As you say the milk is pasteurized...then tested. Or the milk is Unpasteurized...and then tested. Its TESTED EITHER WAY! Hello?! get it? so whether its pasteurized OR unpasteurized, it must pass the same tests of minimal pathogens.


No, the tests are different. The pasteurization process kills off certain pathogens. Since we know they exist before pasteurization, there is no need to test for it. It should not exist after pasteurization however, and there it is tested. Even then, every gallon is not tested, just samples. That testing process cannot exist for unpasteurized milk.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 05:10 AM
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Originally posted by John_Q_Llama
I've never liked milk that much unless it was ice cold and served in a bowl with cereal. And I'm not in a position to say who is right or wrong in the thread up to this point. But there are a couple things I do know about milk. First, it's created primarily by female mammals as a means to nourish their young until they reach a certain age. After that the young no longer feed on the mother's milk.

Humans are the only species which consume the milk of other species. Now, I'm sure there are times when animals consume the milk of another species, but I've only ever heard of that going on when humans are involved, such as when animals are in captivity. My point is that in nature, mammals do not consume the milk of other species. So we humans are alone in that we do ingest milk from other species.

So we drink milk from other animals and we do it long after we're past the age of needing to nurse from our mother's breast. I'm not saying that there's anything dreadfully wrong with drinking a tall glass of milk. But I like to think that the things other creatures of this planet do shouldn't be ignored. There must be a reason that only the young drink milk only from their mothers.

Just something to think about.

If that big glass of milk is appealing to you, be it raw or pasteurized, then drink up. I'll pass though...unless there are some Frosted Flakes involved.


We are the only species that does a lot of things. Afterall we are at the top of the food chain. It only make sense that we would be able to eat most of what's found on Earth. I guess we are the only species that eats eggs, meat, rice, fish, drinks wine, performs oral sex on each other. I guess all those things are not "natural" so we should abstain from them as well?

As far as the other poster..........yes I know what pasteurization is. It kills off harmful bacteria through heat. But it doesn't differentiate between harmful and beneficial bacteria. Lactic Acid is a natural antibiotic found in raw milk. It prevents many pathogenic bacteria from growing in raw milk. This is a natural defense mother nature intended because cows are inherently dirty, their udders get dragged through the ground etc. at times.

Also just like anything pasteurization is not the end all be all of bacterial death. They are starting to find that several pathogenic microbes have become adpated to the process and are surviving. This is FACT! Now they are using a lot more ultra pasteurization. And if you think any healthy food is meant ot sit on a shelf for years on end, especially a food like milk, you're nuts!



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 05:11 AM
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Originally posted by Shadow_Lord

Originally posted by pexx421
shadowlord, thats exactly my point....which you missed apparently. As you say the milk is pasteurized...then tested. Or the milk is Unpasteurized...and then tested. Its TESTED EITHER WAY! Hello?! get it? so whether its pasteurized OR unpasteurized, it must pass the same tests of minimal pathogens.


No, the tests are different. The pasteurization process kills off certain pathogens. Since we know they exist before pasteurization, there is no need to test for it. It should not exist after pasteurization however, and there it is tested. Even then, every gallon is not tested, just samples. That testing process cannot exist for unpasteurized milk.


It doesn't kill off certain pathogens it kills off MOSt pathogens good and bad. It's also a known medical fact that beneficial bacteria are necessary for good health. hence all the probiotic hoopla on t.v. these days with yogurt etc.



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