Captain jumps overboard, SEALs shoot pirates, official says

reply to post by Tgautier13


Jeez... As a merchant navy officer (british) who's just come back from this area on the asia to europe trade route, we are innocent men (and women) on these ships simply passing the area bringing products from asia to the people in europe so that they can continue to live an easy life eating and using products made cheaply from asia.

We don't do anything wrong to the people of Somalia, don't even stop there or go anywhere near it but yet we're putting our lives at risk to bring people their cheap goods. I'm sure your opinion would change if you couldn't get any products from asia on your shopping shelves that we risk our lives to bring you!!!

I find the network news reporting hilarious. They keep stressing that "....Navy SEAL long range snipers made the kills at a great distance..etc". Then they state the shooting distance was 35 to 30 meters !! My God,it doesn't take a snipert o make a 30 meter shot . I regularly (and I'm sure most other shooters) shoot FAR greater ranges all day long. not taking anything from the SEALS, just pointed out the media stupidity. No wonder the public is largely clueless.

reply to post by scooterstrats
Well, now they have a guy on the phone stating that 25,30 meters isnt
long range. So they are backtracking like crazy !. The expert is talking, but the news chick doesnt seem to get it...

Another job well done by the Seals. Somalia and the surrounding countries are going to be interesting for the next few months. They chose the wrong place to set up shipping lanes. What about that French family that was attacked by the pirates last week? Where exactly did that happen? I missed the news on that one.

Way to go boys...

The pirates should of known this was coming. Navy Seals as well as all Spec Ops units train day in and day out for moments like this. When the cage is unlocked and the food bowl is full...there is NOTHING that keeps the big dogs from getting their meal.

The Teams 1
Douchbags 0

Originally posted by paxnatus
Why would you post such tripe? "Trying to LIVE, and protect their coastal lines?" You don't say?(sarcasm) To the tune of $2,000,000. No less!! Wow, I could live nicely off $2,000,000,!

I could too. Now try living on less than $5 a day, which is the average income of a Somalian.

Also, try living with just a bare minimum education. I'm talking 3rd Grade level at best. Alot of these pirates are fueled by greed and ignorance, but alot are also trying to make the quality of life for their people better. Would you deny them this just so Red Lobster can charge a couple dollars less for a shrimp platter?

O.K., I see you are from Kansas. Let's say you were working abroad in Europe. You own a car there and are driving to work. You are minding your own business, when all of a sudden you are carjacked!! Only instead of taking the car and leaving you on the curb, they take you hostage. Now you have been held for 2 days! The world is aware!! People are trying to figure out how to save your life and then there is a lone voice screaming 'Stupid American! Coming over here to steal jobs and exploit the British!!'

I'm sorry.... what? Are you trying to imply that their ecosystem is not being abused and destroyed by Western interests who understand the profits of committing such acts? I'm not stealing resources, I'm not polluting the environment. The scenario you provided would be an unprovoked example of grand theft auto and kidnapping, and really has no connection whatsoever with what is going on off the Somalia coast.

Guess what buddy? That's not a Brit squawking, that's a flippin
AMERICAN!!!!!!! That is YOU in your own words in the above post!! Maybe now you can see how ass backward that sounds!!

You've actually left me blindsided and confused with your ignorance regarding this subject. Forget "ass-backwards", you just don't make sense at all.

If America is so evil, such a bully and so,so bad for the rest of the world, then GET OUT and if you still want to call yourself an American, may I suggest a basic History course on EXACTLY what that means!!

So what you got out of my post was that I think America is evil and are just bullies, right? Because the choices of a few higher ups to take advantage of the lack of security around the Somalia coast, to steal their food source and dump and their toxic waste in the water automatically damns an entire country of people to Hell. You have a unique thought process there, I bet you and Bill O'Reilly would get along just fine.

reply to post by Seekerof

the primary reasons for such acts is again, money and profits. Bluntly put, its 'big business.'

Of course, all of us save for a few particularly ignorant souls get that.

But you have to look at what fuels this lucrative business and the desperate conditions that make the ranks of Pirates swell so suddenly.

And that inevitably comes down to looking at the history of Somalia; a country exploited end after end by selfish European powers for 50 years. Everyone from the Germans, Italians, British and French had a slice of the pie over the decades whenever a substance of value was discovered and every time the Somalis were raped of their natural resources.

This is what caused the onset of Feudalistic warlords and tribalism, where people banded together to resist what they perceived outside influence.
This later expanded to resisting Somalis who didn't support their territorial or religious ambitions.

Then of the course the renowned UNinvolved Organisation with a good track record of not preventing bloodshed in Africa came to Mogadishu in 1993 and the rest is history.

The famines and civil wars that killed over 300,000 people just bred another more disillusioned generation with even more contempt for outside influences.

The above mentioned economic conditions together with a inherent dislike for foreign powers gives rise to Piracy.

You can hardly say there's one, lone cause of the issue that can take all the blame for it.

Originally posted by jerico65
reply to post by Tgautier13

 

Somehow, I don't think the pirates are heading out to see to hijack a tanker with the Captain leading them into battle with the cry, "Save our shores from pollution, you scurvy dogs!"

They are in it for the money; why else are they holding them for ransom, and not asking for some sort of public forum to air their case and grievences??

There's a multitude of 'reasons' as to why this is happening now, you cannot just pin it down to one certain point. Greed does fuel many of these pirates now. Protecting their only source of income and food is another reason these people take to the seas.

What I have a problem with here is how everyone paints these Somalians as the bad guys while the Americans are the good guys. Its all grey no matter where you look at it. There are benevolent and malevolent intentions from both parties.

This kind of good guy/bad guy simplification in part lead to our Post-911 xenophobia, and its a tragedy. I'd like to see this kind of mindset be thrown aside soon.

Look guys, a good chunk of us can't stand Obama. But he wasn't talking about it because he didn't want any info getting out at all. Obama signed the order Friday night and reapproved the guidelines for engagement again on Saturday. It really is quite a shame that partisanship has overtaken the ability to make at least one decision correctly.

I can't stand him either, but give credit where it's due.

reply to post by Seekerof


Thank you for your reply, and thank you for being about the third or fourth person to try and paint me as anti-American in this thread. This is not an anti-American or a pro-American discussion, and I'd appreciate it if all of you would stop trying to spin it into that debate. Just like how I appreciate everyone trying to keep their un-bridled hate for our President out of this subject, because it doesn't have any place in this thread.

I refuse to cover my eyes as to why piracy is beginning to surge in this region. If you feel its all about money with these pirates, isn't that just as bad as saying they are all trying to protect their coasts? I say they are protecting their coasts because from what I've gathered on the subject that's what the majority of them are doing. A thread just yesterday or two days ago right here in ATS provided a link which showed how almost 80% of Somalians are in favor of the pirates and their actions. Doesn't that make 80% of Somalia guilty of greed and just pirating for the profit of it all?

Re-read my posts. Never did I say this is soley an American issue. I pointed out how the majority of trawlers hoarding the seafood in the region are American, and how most of the pollution going on in the region are from European interests. From what I've read, I understand this to be the truth.

I could go on but your post has already been covered by the Godfather of Conspira quite well, and I would just be repeating that post.

Edit: I found the quote in the Huff Post article I presented: its around 70% of Somalians who agree with the piracy taking place.

Edit 2: You stated in your post that the main reason why this happens is because of profit, not the other way around, which I just find absurd (no offense). As we've all stated, there are a few bad eggs among the bunch who are fueled by their own greed which is emboldened by their own natural ignorance due to a lack of proper education. Of course greed will be apparent in this situation. But to say this is the main reason why the people of the region, not just Somalians, are beginning to take up piracy again just doesn't make sense. There would have to an underlying factor that breaks the camel's back per se.

[edit on 12-4-2009 by Tgautier13]

[edit on 12-4-2009 by Tgautier13]

reply to post by FredT

What you don't get is we all have the opoportunity to do things like this on a daily basis but you wouldn't tell the bum what he wants to hear, nor stop those kids from picking on the weak 1, or maybe you just looked the other way when people get in an arguement. Any one of us could have done the things he did if given the opportunity. What he did was nothing special. We should all do what's right on a daily basis and forget whether or not you are a hero for it. We live in a # world and to say no one would have done what he did is false and to say he is a hero is false. Help those around you and forget about these stories of heroism in the media. U are the hero if u would stand up and take charge of the actions that take place around you. Forget who's goiong to get it done in "crunch time." We are living in "crunch time." Do what's right all the time.

reply to post by Tgautier13


"I could too. Now try living on less than $5 a day, which is the average income of a Somalian.

Also, try living with just a bare minimum education. I'm talking 3rd Grade level at best. Alot of these pirates are fueled by greed and ignorance, but alot are also trying to make the quality of life for their people better. Would you deny them this just so Red Lobster can charge a couple dollars less for a shrimp platter?"

Both of my grandmothers lived through the great depression. One had no more than a third grade education. At no time did she resort to kidnapping,
piracy or any criminal act!! In fact most don't resort to violent crime against innocent people.

You know this is not about shrimp or to help keep them from starving! This is about big money business. a 2 million dollar ransom says it all.

I gave you the example as to say you were working, INNOCENTLY minding your own business, and Boom What you own is seized and you are being held against your will!! This is what happened to this American Captain on an American cargo ship. He is was working, INNOCENTLY minding his own business!! Don't be so obtuse.


So what you got out of my post was that I think America is evil and are just bullies, right? Because the choices of a few higher ups to take advantage of the lack of security around the Somalia coast, to steal their food source and dump and their toxic waste in the water automatically damns an entire country of people to Hell. You have a unique thought process there, I bet you and Bill O'Reilly would get along just fine.

Yes!! I think you feel that way because you trashed America in YOUR OWN
WORDS!! Especially when you side with criminals against the innocent; in this case the cargo ship was innocent.

Not one time did I ever damn an entire country to hell!! You are putting words in my mouth! Hoping to see justice done to the individuals that perpetrated this act does not make me the bad guy! I could care less that the cargo ship was American. It could have been from ANY country. WRONG is WRONG!! I believe your thought process is a little barbaric if I am understanding you correctly!

reply to post by paxnatus

Both of my grandmothers lived through the great depression. One had no more than a third grade education. At no time did she resort to kidnapping,
piracy or any criminal act!! In fact most don't resort to violent crime against innocent people.

No offence but that's a moot analogy.

Both of your grandparents never lived through an almost 30 years of continuous civil war and a lack of a stable ruling authority.

Apples and oranges.

You do realise some of these pirates have absolutely no say in this? The Somali militias are not volunteer organisations.

They routinely round up kids from their parents and take them away to camps for systematic indoctrination into the way of life of a warlord.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

the primary reasons for such acts is again, money and profits. Bluntly put, its 'big business.'

Of course, all of us save for a few particularly ignorant souls get that.

Actually, if you call "ignorant" the majority of the counter-terrorism, counter-piracy experts, and piracy and maritime terrorism academics in the world, you knock yourself out believing that which you wll, kkthx.

But you have to look at what fuels this lucrative business and the desperate conditions that make the ranks of Pirates swell so suddenly.

I actually have by spending nearly 6 months in both Somalia and Yemen.
As I have repeatedly stated on this board within many of the topics related to this matter, those causes/reasons that you, as well as others, continue to bring forth are not the only causes and reasons, and whether you or anyone else wants to admit it or not, the conditions in Somalia itself are the primary and fomenting causes/reasons, not what has or is happening off their shores.

And that inevitably comes down to looking at the history of Somalia; a country exploited end after end by selfish European powers for 50 years. Everyone from the Germans, Italians, British and French had a slice of the pie over the decades whenever a substance of value was discovered and every time the Somalis were raped of their natural resources.

Not. The current acts of Somalia related piracy and maritime terrorism do not go back to the age of colonialismor; its simply a deflection myth and one that needs to stop now. The problem is within the current and ongoing conditions and situations wthin Somalia and representative of the current, not decades past.

This is what caused the onset of Feudalistic warlords and tribalism, where people banded together to resist what they perceived outside influence.
This later expanded to resisting Somalis who didn't support their territorial or religious ambitions.

If your logic is fact and having merit, then like logic would stipulate, if not dictate, that America has been fighting/combating Islamic fundamentalism via acts of piracy since the colonial times. Your argument/logic smacks of those who dabble in 'The Africa Question' of who is to blame. Nothing new. Next?

Then of the course the renowned UNinvolved Organisation with a good track record of not preventing bloodshed in Africa came to Mogadishu in 1993 and the rest is history.

I have likewise stated repeatedly on these boards for years that the U.N. is a defunct and failed international organization.

The famines and civil wars that killed over 300,000 people just bred another more disillusioned generation with even more contempt for outside influences.

Genocide alone in Sudan surpasses those alleged numbers. Again, to blame all such occurences on "outside influences" is ludicrous being most of such is the blame of those within Africa--defunct and corrupt African governments, leadership, etc.

The above mentioned economic conditions together with a inherent dislike for foreign powers gives rise to Piracy.

Islamic fundamentalist wage terrorism, errrr, holy Jihad against the West and America because of the same reasons. How quaint. As such, you have only added another cause/reason of among many.

You can hardly say there's one, lone cause of the issue that can take all the blame for it.

And I have not. Re-read all my post made on this board concerning this matter. I simply stated what was among the primary cause(s)/reason(s).


[edit on 12-4-2009 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by paxnatus
Both of my grandmothers lived through the great depression. One had no more than a third grade education. At no time did she resort to kidnapping,
piracy or any criminal act!! In fact most don't resort to violent crime against innocent people.

I bet your grandmothers weren't exposed to one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world. Forget economics for a second. There is a serious threat to humanitarian and civil decency in this country. Did your relatives live in a state where half a million people have perished in a decade (10 [ten] years)?

You know this is not about shrimp or to help keep them from starving! This is about big money business. a 2 million dollar ransom says it all.

I had to stop and rethink my choice to reply to your post when I say this quote, but here it is anyways. How is not about these people trying to keep more of their own from starving? Are you only seeing the big green dollar sign in this situation? Shrimp and the rest of the seafood resources in the area are the product of the big business.

I gave you the example as to say you were working, INNOCENTLY minding your own business, and Boom What you own is seized and you are being held against your will!! This is what happened to this American Captain on an American cargo ship. He is was working, INNOCENTLY minding his own business!! Don't be so obtuse.

I will give him and his crew the benefit of the doubt in this situation, because its pretty well known the majority of ships that pass through the sea lanes are doing just that and minding their own business. We don't know the whole story as to why this freighter was chosen though, and don't pretend like you know either. This could just be a situation where the pirates see a 'Western' freighter if you will, and targeted it. Doesn't take away from the fact that their are other Western interests in the area who are devastating the ecosystem and economy.

Yes!! I think you feel that way because you trashed America in YOUR OWN
WORDS!! Especially when you side with criminals against the innocent; in this case the cargo ship was innocent.

My original post in this thread is the only time I addressed the American captain and the freighter directly. This discussion has evolved since then into the broader subject regarding why this piracy happens in the first place. You have no proof that this cargo ship was innocent, and I would like you to provide your source for this particular aspect of the story.

I would also like to ask you to point out to me where I trashed America or Americans. In return I will show you everywhere in this thread that I have defended America, including President Obama several times.

Not one time did I ever damn an entire country to hell!! You are putting words in my mouth!

You misunderstand my original quote or didn't understand the context of what I posted. I would go so far as to say your misunderstanding my entire position.

Hoping to see justice done to the individuals that perpetrated this act does not make me the bad guy!

Nor does wishing harm or retribution on fellow humans make you the good guy. The idea of 'Justice' is an antiquity from an age long ago, it has no place in an ethical society.

I could care less that the cargo ship was American. It could have been from ANY country.

Which is what I've been saying in so much words for the past couple of posts. Again I feel your totally misunderstanding my viewpoint.

WRONG is WRONG!! I believe your thought process is a little barbaric if I am understanding you correctly!

Which you aren't.

I understand about the toxic waste dumping, and fish stealing, but really I think anyone defending the 'pirates' is wrong on this. They've been taking people hostage who have nothing to do with this. Just people in the area. Now if they had caught ICI or someone red handed dumping some chemicals and took them hostage... well that's another matter. I still wouldn't really agree, but I'd be able to understand more.

[edit on 12/4/2009 by RubberBaron]

reply to post by RubberBaron


I think this might be a source of most of the misunderstanding in this thread. I'll just speak for myself. I'm not defending the pirates' actions against the freighters, nor am I defending the freighters against the pirates. I'm just trying to paint a broader picture for those who believe the pirates are totally at fault and have no real understandable justification for their acts. That's taking mainstream-reported news as fact and not questioning it at all, which is one of the main reasons alot of people have come to websites like ATS or other independent news organizations or blogsites; to understand the bigger picture.

Originally posted by Seany
reply to post by greeneyedleo

 

why this need to label him a :"hero" , hes just ba guy who was doin his job,

the whole "hero" thing is getting old,

Doing his job is to trade himself for his crew so he became the hostage? Please post any job description that has this included.

The guy is a freakin hero DEAL WITH IT !

The guy is a freakin hero DEAL WITH IT !

The guy is a freakin hero DEAL WITH IT !

Well i think the guy is a hero...

He surrenendered his own life for the safety of the his crew, knowing that it could very well be a final cost.

He then tried to escape and was later saved by some good snipers.

Fair play to the Americans on this one.

Just a shame that people had to lose their lives...

This is my second post on this site, and I only do so when I see the facts or issue being debated get distorted and abused beyond belief.

Please bear with me on this - IMHO I believe the following to be facts, and pertinent points -

1) Somalia is a defunct country, which is regularly raped of its resources, and sovereignty by western nations.
2) The Somalian coastline IS DEFINITELY being used as a dumping ground by foreign governments and companies.
3) The pirates are operating for profit, and also to strike back at the international community that has forsaken their people. I say that is perfectly within their rights - however I do not condone it. It's just not smart thinking.
4) As with most pirates, very few are purely piratical. The term 'privateers' should be applied to more of them. I firmly believe that foreign interests often direct and empower certain pirate groups to target competitive interests in the region.
5) The activities and issues presented here fit in line with the progressive agenda of the Global Elite, and can therefore be allowed to continue in their view. Having a geographical area considered to be 'badlands' is a golden opportunity for policy makers.
6) The lack of a solid government in Somalia is being condoned by Global Elite powers. This allows for foreign political / economic / military interests to be pursued without interference.
7) WHAT IS THE QUESTION THAT NOONE ELSE IS ASKING? What else has been going on in the region recently? What could've made the news / underground chatter if we hadn't been looking at this so hard?

Any other discussion around this issue that doesn't reflect these points, (in my view) is just 'noise'. Especially the idiot rednecks that take the 'Hoo-Rah' view and state that all Muslims / Africans and 'skinnies' causing 'upset' in Somalia should be blown away. And anyone that refers to 'Black Hawk Down' as justification has obviously suffered severe head trauma - with a little foresight you should know that BHD was a wetworks clusterf%*k gone bad.

As ATS regulars you should be ashamed of yourselves. Use your brain, and NOT the TV to figure out what is happening with this affair. As international hotspots go, this one isn't that hard to figure out.

As for the captain and his crew...I don't know what to make of them. They smell fishy to me, but I can't pin down why. I suspect they are more than they appear, but I doubt we will ever know any more than the prescribed scenario that has been released. But then in the grand scheme of things, it's not really important is it? Just another skirmish in the civil war of profit.

Para.

[edit on 12-4-2009 by Parallex]