Why I dont buy the "tea party" protests

Originally posted by SGTChas
I see it as more of getting in front of the mob chasing you out of town to act as if your leading the parade.

[edit on 4/12/2009 by SGTChas]

One of the funniest things Ive read for a while - and nicely captured.

Context: I'm not American, I'm a huge supporter of principals in politics regardless of their views, I despise American interventionist, imperialist foreign policy.

I do hope that the voting system is attacked vociferously in America, and the electronic voting machines are removed. I believe you need to address how the voting system works, the current system seems to be too vulnerable to corruption by special interests - I don't think you are going to have positive change until you can ensure fair elections.

Stalin says; Its not who votes, but who counts the votes that matters.

Regarding quick spins by guys like Glenn Beck, I believe it's complete self interest on his part - also he would never do anything not recommended to him by his bosses. These media guys have simply burned away their credibility. Yet, whatever Glenn Beck actually thinks - if he is willing to give air-time to points of view critical to the current policies, then its somewhat worth while.

Cynically, what benefit is gained? I believe that it is simply a matter of allowing people to vent, and having some source that is in agreement - its a psychological method to cool the disenfranchised populace.

Considering Fox's historical approach to truth - which is to wholesale run it down in a pickup truck, then back over it a few times to ensure its dead - then I would continue to exercise healthy cynicism regarding a 'Glenn Beck' defection.

I think that the whatever individual beliefs are among those pressuring for change - the clear goals need to be the removal of power from the executive, restoration of the authority of the Constitution (even those who are anti-American can readily see and appreciate the wisdom and empowerment contained in that document), and fair and representative elections.

I would like to see America go back to Capitalism - you have strayed so far from free markets and de-regulation, your system is monstrously controlled in order to protect monopolies rather than destroy them with fair competition. Return to capitalism - it served you well in the past - and if it is allowed to operate freely, will benefit everyone in the future.

Underpinning a successful capitalist revival though - you need to revert to some sensible currency - yours is dead in the water - I hold my wealth in physical gold and silver at this time.

This is a fun thread.

That being said, I think before we mention the populist intentions of such a movement we should analyze its context, sociological makeup, and its "language".

One of the current problems of the "Tea Party" movement is that its "members" do not only contain those who have and have always had a certain grievance with non-originalist/pragmatist/intentionalist p.o.v of constitutional law but also those who basically have a grievance period. One might even say it does impair its legitimacy to some degree...others would say "Well we're angry! Thats what we all have in common!" but when coupled with incorrect definitions and use of governmental descriptions "This is facism! This is socialism!" it further provides a question as to just who this movement encompasses....

So many times, and not just on ATS, do I see a "Constiution Supporter" (i.e Originalists) make such erronous claims as to make a NEUTRAL Constitutional Law professor fall out of his chair!

I think we can all hold hands and agree that if you supported the Bush doctrines, and just now can't seem to stomach anything the Obama administration has done, you are a fully blown hypocrite. Unfortunately, the "Tea Party" movement does contain a ridiculously large component of these voters (and I am not saying they are here on ATS mind you) and it does lend to some ridicule by those who lie more toward the center/left.

The interesting question I would like to ask those in the Tea Movement is besides just going along with the "Ron Paul" hardline....
What do you believe about Federal Law?
Judicial Review?
Judicial and Presidential Precedents?
Electoral College?
Separation of Powers Clause?


There is actually not too much in common with the famous Boston Tea Party and these current Tea Parties...except tea...
IMHO

reply to post by awake_awoke



Holy crap! Somebody actually did their homework!!!!

Thank you for this response. You are a person with true free will, which is unfortunately rare these days.

How did you avoid the MSM poison???

reply to post by awake_awoke



Thanks for the affirmation... I think this thread is "fun" too.

The purpose of this thread is much more serious I'm afraid.

In reply to some of your questions... I can only give my own reply, but I beg you to read some of my core beliefs, as penned by James Madison:

www.constitution.org...

It would be well for potential attendees of the "tea parties" to heed the lessons of history...

As to Separation of Power... I should hope that you would consider this excerpt from the same tome:

en.wikipedia.org...

Once again, our founding father speak from beyond the grave: "Been there, done that..."

Will we truly understand their words, and this time make it right for everlasting liberty?

Mr. Guardian and Mr. Mental (and all other doubters of the Tea Party Movement), let me say that I fully understand your exasperation of the self serving blind proponents of the Republican right; as one who vocally stood against Mr. Bush successful campaign to whip up American indignation in a self serving bid to fight his wars for the freedom of multi-national corporations to do business by wrapping himself in the flag; then shoved through the most draconian abridgements of the Constitution in our history with the politics of fear. But can you not see this is exactly what Mr. Obama is continuing to do and ask yourself why? Is the surrender of oversight of the whole American Economic system to the G20 of no concern to you? Are the obvious surrenders of liberty through a whole host of Mr. Obama’s announced plans of no concern? Will you except United Nations oversight of all apparatuses of our Federal Government? When will it be enough? When will you stand to defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Borrowing the wisdom of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”, I have no trouble welcoming Republican hacks to the bulk wards of the front line defense of Liberty; the same ones who laughed at and derided me, attempting to marginalize my voice by every means. Now all I have warned of is happening before the eyes of those who laughed me to scorn. Even still I will stand with them now as belated ‘converts’ to the cause of the defense of liberty, for this I will defend with my last breath; the yell of defiance of the free.

Of course, they will attempt to hijack the Tea Party movement; however, this will not be possible for the very reason that in ever-increasing numbers the American electorate is being reeducated in the principles of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and the true intent of the Founding Fathers. Through the movements promotion of books like ‘Liberty and Tyranny’ the Federalist Papers and numerous others, the one thing that all fascist, socialist and would be dictators cannot stand has been loosed, the uncompromising truth (of what BOTH parties have been guilty of perverting). That ship has sailed, and the powers that be will never again be able sell the lie that the Constitution is a “living” “elastic” document that’s meaning can be morphed into whatever the leader of the moment wants it to mean. The American people have started to awake to that lie and are demanding the government return to its Constitutional boundaries.

Please join us as this is decisively NOT a partisan movement as to the ‘right’ and ‘left’ of unconstitutional is still unconstitutional. We need you and every American to stand to defend our Republic as ALL of this was planned long ago; just find the “Report on Iron Mountain” on the internet, and then stand with us! Long Live This Republic!

[edit on 4/13/2009 by SGTChas]

reply to post by awake_awoke


I tell ya that was just a great summing up of what I was trying to get through! Most of these folks at these tea protests are hypocrites, but there is just so much denial.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by mental modulator
You are entitled to your anti OBAMA sentiment, but don't try to pass it off
as something it is clearly not. Once again your disgust for OBAMA ....

Your entire post was off topic ....
I am NOT the topic of this thread.
I did NOT mention Obama at all in my post.
YOU are the one bringing him up.

The subject is - 'why I don't buy the 'tea party' protests'.
Try to stay on the topic .. will ya'?

edited to fix word ...


[edit on 4/13/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by SGTChas
Mr. Guardian and Mr. Mental (and all other doubters of the Tea Party Movement), let me say that I fully understand your exasperation of the self serving blind proponents of the Republican right;

Well its good you see somewhat where I was coming from.

as one who vocally stood against Mr. Bush successful campaign to whip up American indignation in a self serving bid to fight his wars for the freedom of multi-national corporations to do business by wrapping himself in the flag; then shoved through the most draconian abridgements of the Constitution in our history with the politics of fear.

True. Yet it appears nobody is interested in that fact. All I hear on here now a days is "how hard bush got it compared to Obama" or "if this was bush" etc. Nobody gives a damn about this man getting away with murder and blood on his hands, its all about socialimisms now. Dont care if Obama killed a baby lamb on the whitehouse lawn, that doesnt excuse the unconstitutional acts Bush did in the past, that doesnt mean we should just "move on and forget about him".

Most fringers here share a great deal with Bush in values and politics, they just wont admit it, and what you see from them comes in the form of "his not as bad" and "he had it bad with the media". Just unbelievable.

But can you not see this is exactly what Mr. Obama is continuing to do and ask yourself why?

What exactly is he continuing to do? Would you like him to wave a magic stick to make everything better? The thing is none of the fringers on here gave president Obama a bone, never, and they never intended to. The man hasnt been in office for a year, and yet so much is been put on his lab by both sides. One side has too much expectations of him, and the otherside is just plain trolling as to complain about him every day that passes by. I think his doing everything he can in a situation like this. He came into two wars, the worst economic crises in decades, the lowest foreign relations in decades, one of the most divided times and trigger happy terrorists still running around from the day they attacked america.

Could be a little clear over what you expect him to end right this moment?

Is the surrender of oversight of the whole American Economic system to the G20 of no concern to you?

What surrender? Do have an issue with foreign nations having diplomatic dialog with one another over the current economic crises? Must the members here thing every gathering of nations involve some larger NWO conspiracy? Do you think having an isolationist policy will be a benefit to america to solve what is a global economic crises? Just what was a concern to you at the G20?

Are the obvious surrenders of liberty through a whole host of Mr. Obama’s announced plans of no concern?

Surrender of what liberty? The last time I heard anybody mutter "the threat to our liberty" was when using it as an excuse to invade Iraq or to allow torture. Liberty is everyones word now, are you talking about your liberty? or the general consensus of liberty? What surrender of liberty?

Will you except United Nations oversight of all apparatuses of our Federal Government?

Oversight of what? Two years ago I heard the same thing from members here, the UN to take over the US. Its something thats been going on for years. What oversight? Do you have evidence of the UN putting their flag on the whitehouse? Please, because Iv heard this before.

When will it be enough? When will you stand to defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Defend what? The bill of rights was already torn to shreds by the previous administration. If you didnt see that then you most probably had no issue of that happening during a conservative administration. Please tell me just what further damage could this administration do that the other administration left? Be specific.

Borrowing the wisdom of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”, I have no trouble welcoming Republican hacks to the bulk wards of the front line defense of Liberty;

So you would invite hitler himself to march with you at a pro-israeli march? These republicans stood over the constitution and abused it for years and left the country in a mess, they through ron paul out in the cold during the republican primaries, voted against the 1st ammendment, waged foreign imperialist war... now that a liberal is in, all of a sudden they are you best friend. Are you not insulted that they are using you to get the same hacks in over the last 8years? Or do you secret agree with them? If this is you, then you do not know of any real Boston tea party.

the same ones who laughed at and derided me, attempting to marginalize my voice by every means. Now all I have warned of is happening before the eyes of those who laughed me to scorn.

They scorn because a democratic is in power, and they have lost all credibility not just to the nation but to the world. They all of a sudden care about your movement because it is they now who are out of power. And you are naive enough to think that once they get back into power they will not carry out the same unconstitutional laws and imperialist wars you so opposed. I feel sorry that you have been easily taken advantage of.

Even still I will stand with them

You stand by the neoconservative movement when you stand with them, because they know of nothing else, and you know of nothing else. The tea party is a rebranding effect, no different from the same movement of theirs during the late 90s, no different to that of the early 70s. Constant rebranding, same imperialist elite agenda, and you will find the same 8years as experienced under bush... and you know what, people like you wont give a damn, so long as there is a conservative power, so long as you get your $10 tax cut. Then they will run it to the ground again, and will move your anger to scapegoats, and you fall for it then like you are now.

now as belated ‘converts’

They were converts when they became Bushies, they were converts when they became republicans, the were the same dixie democrats that opposed the very freedoms for their fellow americans. Converts you say, how long have you been around?

to the cause of the defense of liberty, for this I will defend with my last breath;

All you are defending is the imaginary boogy man the neocon mouth piece media made for you. Go and fight the wind, the air of nothing, feel like your standing for something, when things improve they will have another excuse waiting for you to feed into.

Of course, they will attempt to hijack the Tea Party movement;

Theyv already hijacked it, they outnumber Paulers and soon they will engulf paulers to the point you wont tell the difference. At the end of the day it will be the same republican, the same neocon that was voted in back in 2000. Same process. Same cycle.

Please join us as this is decisively NOT a partisan movement

I think the accusatins of socialism and communism to all liberals tells me different. I think the term "conservative" spread through all those picket boards says alot. This has everything to do with partisanship and nothing to do for general care about the constitution. If it did you would have figured by now the tarnished constitution left from the previous administration, yet you assumed there was nothing wrong wrong left of it prior to 2009.

Have good day marching with the neoconservatives. In 8years time you'll be telling me you had nothing to do with them either.

Scene from historical comedy circa 2025:

Indian sitting on a rock sees crazy religious europeans land in Boston. Shortly after that, more crazy religious Europeans arrive, these ones are not corporate and are really INSANE. One of these, a crazy religious guy sails into the ocean about 50 feet and takes a right around the corner to Providence where other indians watch him land and greet him warmly. Another crazy religious person goes to Connecticut where indians watch her with amusment. All of these think they have "found" a "lost world".

Sometime after, all of these crazy religious (but materially minded) people feel upset about being taxed by the King who they left, and they protest by dumping tea. Indians getting restless now.

The tea issue is resolved eventually and the indian is placed on the Bostonian flag even as plans are made to eradicate him. Some years later, indians all across the US realize crazy religious Europeans are not interested in being friends or merging cultures. Indians wage allout war to preserve their culture and their families, all tribes are methodically destroyed.

April 15th 2009, another tea party in Boston. Indians yawn, wait for something real.



[edit on 13-4-2009 by smallpeeps]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


The Tea Parties are not a neocon idea. From what I've heard, they and other politicians won't be welcome to speak at most tea parties. The purpose of the Tea Parties is to tell politicians of all parties that they are all spending too much of our money.

Most politicians will try and pretend the Tea Parties were no big deal.

There are reports of attempts by left wing organizations plans to infiltrate the Tea Parties: Gateway Pundit and INFOWARS

Originally posted by CharlesMartel
The Tea Parties are not a neocon idea.

Patriotism, liberty and freedom was never their idea either, yet it appears they and the fringers here have tried to claim it for themselves, no different to the excuses they came up with back 03' when they were in power.

From what I've heard, they and other politicians won't be welcome to speak at most tea parties.

BS, they will be there hand in hand with paulers and fringers, marching as if they gave a damn about the constitution all these years. If you have nothing to do with them, have nothing to do with them, stop listening to the garbage they spew, otherwise your no different from them.

The purpose of the Tea Parties is to tell politicians of all parties that they are all spending too much of our money.

Yes and among the protests will be these very politicians who acted unconstitutionally all these years, the very politicians you supposedly will be telling. The same ones that voted for the patriot act, that supported torture without representation for those accused, who outright supported a costly war of lies. They are the very politicians you folks supposedly oppose and have nothing to do with. they will be walking hand in hand with you and none of you have issue with that, because you secretly are them.

You dont have anything to do with them? Have nothing to do with them then otherwise cut the excuses. Just what tea party are you at, what state or city?

Most politicians will try and pretend the Tea Parties were no big deal.

I issue here isnt if you disagree with Obamas policies because your conservative, I issue isnt if you protest because of that, My issue is when you are hypocritical regarding the true intent of these protests, especially when it involves the same same individuals and group who opposed aspects of the constitution and still do.

There are reports of attempts by left wing organizations plans to infiltrate the Tea Parties:

Dont care what a minority of left wingers are trying to do, it is about the hypocrisy of these protests and the individuals who stripped the very constitution from us who now "give a damn" and how Paulers are falling right into it. Which begs the question, have Paulers being Bushies all along?

[edit on 13-4-2009 by Southern Guardian]

I am not from the US - please listen to an outside perspective - don't fight each other - fight your government.

The artificial divisions of 'left' and 'right' were hatched by people who wanted to control you. They appear to give you a choice, when in fact you had none.

The voice is not as important as the message - that people are frustrated and angry.

Don't let them divide you with rhetoric, or artificial divisions - they want people to talk about blacks and whites, right and left, republican and democrats, and Christians and Jews. Its all bull# - they want you divided - don't play that game - stop using their language.

The divisions your media taught you are false divisions - the amount that Americans have been steeped in this kind of brainwashing is incredible. I can see that even those of you who are becoming aware of the level of brainwashing are still hard pressed to avoid its subtle influences.

What they truly fear is someone who starts talking about AMERICANS - be that person.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Amagnon]

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Amagnon]

reply to post by Amagnon


Only a small percentage of people who care about this are actually able to hear what you are saying. The vast majority are so blinded by the left vs right, liberal vs neo-con, that they can not bring themselves to sit back and rationally see how they are being manipulated.

Their side is correct. The other side is evil. They are never wrong. (This applies to both sides)

Less than 24 hours!

"The war is inevitable — and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace — but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! " -Patrick Henry

reply to post by cbianchi513


Yeah right.

The actual turn out is going to be embarrassingly small and I am betting that faux news pulls the plug on their coverage once they realize how small it is really going to be.

I'm betting that it won't even be 500,000 total nation wide.

Interesting thread...I see the value in all sides and positions.

I think,in a nutshell,there are simply MANY of us that feel we need to do SOMETHING that we ourselves are in total control of even if it's just to attend a rally.
After months of lies,deception,outright fear, and uncertainty in the future, it's absolutely worth a few hours of my life for if no other reason than to reinforce my personal beliefs in a small way that I DO have a "say" in something because of the taxes I pay and the votes I cast.

The right to convene for a cause is vital to my way of thinking and it's one little one they haven't shut down completely...yet.

People don't know what the hell to do or believe these days and for many of us,we need a "symbol" that life as we've know it hasn't totally gone to chit,even if it simply involves the making of a heart-felt sign...we need to be heard.

It's every person's need to feel of value and that they "matter" in it all...I for one have truly felt like I've been kicked in the teeth and dragged through the coals WAY too long so I'll make my sign and hope for the best without connecting myself to any politically-based group.

Simple yes but it will probably give some hope that they have tried although it's most likely in vain.

You need to keep trying.

reply to post by irishchic


Easy for you to say, your Governor supports state soverignty! Don't Mess with Texas, no?

Do all homes in TX come equipped with stripper poles, and redheads??? I'll be grabbing the real estate section, please...



I'm pretty sure that attendance won't be great either... there is a forecast for rain in my area, temps in the high 40's... "Sunshine Patriots" need not apply.

I'll be there, in my "cop" reflective sunglasses that obscure half my face...

Look for this guy waving a Gadsden flag:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1ec515f05a08.jpg[/atsimg]

I keed, I keed!


[edit on 14/4/09 by cbianchi513]

reply to post by cbianchi513



I wish they did...I'm in killer-shape because of my "aerial-aerobics" and have beat chronic asthma by maintaining a totally healthy-lifestyle so I no longer am a slave in any way to the health-care system or insurance company because of my level of fitness.

Can't even tell you how many "overweight and diabetic" people live in South Texas...so,a pole in every home would be great by me if it would prompt more people to get their asses in shape and you can buy the red hair easily.

I own homes in both NY and Texas so I'm screwed doubly ways but absolutely believe in the Texas-way of doing 'thangs when it comes to life and liberty!



[edit on 14-4-2009 by irishchic]

How is it Mr. Guardian that we do not hear the wisdom of the impassioned plea of Amagnon? How is it that we as Americans cannot see the continued ‘divide and conquer’ ‘us against them’ mind set of the soon to be slaves that the powers that be have used to keep us at each others throat while they incrementally destroyed our national identity and took our sovereignty? From NAFTA to the current coming ban on ‘evil’ assault weapons, from coming illegal alien amnesty to socialized medicine, from punitive taxes on individuals or activities deemed ‘bad’ by government officials to Koh’s wish to submit our judiciary to world court decisions, from ‘green initiatives’ to ‘cap and trade’ carbon taxes and Federal Government forcing Banks to take TARP funds – refusing to allow them to return the money through threats of being audited – and then regulating their activities, from the Patriot Act to farm regulation our Republic is dying.

Can you and others not remember that we are first AMERICANS; all other designations being of far less import then this our birthright? Do you not understand that the very document that has given us the ability to hold differing political, religious, and regional opinions and beliefs is being trashed in the mad rush towards globalization? Are your political suspicions and prejudices so in grained as for you to not be able to see what is so obvious? I pray not. Please stand with us to defend the Constitution and our Bill of Rights; stand with us tomorrow as an American.