Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Not to be antigonistic, but I would tell the lawmakers in France to kiss my white ass. But I'm glad to see the JSO thinks religion is for the weak minded.

You must be a stark Catholic then bud

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I see that you still have a long way to go on your reading comprehension.

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As an American, and believing in Freedom, I dislike this law. One should be able to wear whatever they want, as long as it does not harm others (like some idiot driving with a bag over his head - just stupid things like that).

However - I must say, given my dislike for all things French (except their wine) I would say at least maybe those terrorists will attack them and not my good old US of A!

Djarums, I've read what you said, and I must admit that I'm agree with some of your arguments. It's true that it's a stupid thing to make a law 'bout religion, and sometime (this is a confidence I tell you), I feel oppress by this "atheism extremism", and mad anti-clericalism the people of my country practice.

It's true that it's in certains points harder to practice a religion in France than in any other countries I've visited (almost in Europe).

But, there are some facts that you must know about headscarf.
The first thing to know is that the headscarf (tchador), was not stricly forbiden in schools or college. But some professor asked to their pupils to take off in class all hats, casquets, and of course headscarf for the curses.

Some pupils in french college, refuse to practice sports teaching, because they dont want to take off their headscarf.

Another problem is that some pupils refuse to take off the headscarf for exams. This is forbidden because some students can use headscarf to make frauds in exams.

Some muslims women refuse to see or to be operated by a male doctor.

A thing really shocking for many french citizen, it's when they see women with the afghani headscarf in streets (The burqa...)...

It's really ironic, because, French people is a really sexually freed people...

You will found me radical, maybe you will say thatI'm racist, but when you come in a country, you must accept the host country culture and mood.
It's to the visitor to accept the host rule !

A foreigner cant come in your country and tell you what to do !

If Ultraphoenix was there, he would be really surprised and probably laught at me, to read that...

You will found me radical, maybe you will say thatI'm racist, but when you come in a country, you must accept the host country culture and mood.
It's to the visitor to accept the host rule !

A foreigner cant come in your country and tell you what to do !

Ok, but what if a Muslim is a French citizen? A French person, who is a Muslim. The host country is their home country. They are not a visitor, but a resident.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Not to be antigonistic, but I would tell the lawmakers in France to kiss my white ass. But I'm glad to see the JSO thinks religion is for the weak minded.

You must be a stark Catholic then bud

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I see that you still have a long way to go on your reading comprehension.

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Oh I think I read you quite correctly. You do write at a fourth grade level so it's really not that hard.

But since you bring it up, how do you figure? Cause I called you a Catholic? Seems pretty obvious that it's a joke. I don't know why I bother explaining simple concepts to you though.

[Edited on 23-4-2004 by KrazyJethro]

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You missed the word organized, which changes the meaning. But what's a few words when you already have an agenda, eh?

I may write at a fourth grade level, but I find it difficult to dumb it down even further in order to reach the likes of children like you. Now run along like a good little boy and lodge a complaint.



[Edited on 23-4-2004 by jsobecky]

It's a huge step forward and I applaud the French for their initiative.

Freedom of Religion was a forward thinking initiative. Muslim women wearing a headscarf to remain modest in accordance with their religious beliefs is Freedom of Religion.

Restricting Freedom of Religion, on the other hand, is regression.

Originally posted by curme

You will found me radical, maybe you will say thatI'm racist, but when you come in a country, you must accept the host country culture and mood.
It's to the visitor to accept the host rule !

A foreigner cant come in your country and tell you what to do !

Ok, but what if a Muslim is a French citizen? A French person, who is a Muslim. The host country is their home country. They are not a visitor, but a resident.

The french problem is not about nationality but religion. Sure. Many girls in french colleges are french citizen. But there is also a problem of respect of authority, represented by the professors.

Okay, let's have a criticize view point : What would you do, How would you react, if tomorrow american muslims complain to have the right to make loud in the streets the prayer call (When they scream : "Allah U Akbar...Allah U Akbar...") at five A.M. , at the sunset ?

I know I exagerate, but not so much...

Do you think that you can make a serious curse in a class full of girls dressed like dark-vader ?

[Edited on 23-4-2004 by Nans DESMICHELS]

Originally posted by Nans DESMICHELS

Originally posted by curme

You will found me radical, maybe you will say thatI'm racist, but when you come in a country, you must accept the host country culture and mood.
It's to the visitor to accept the host rule !

A foreigner cant come in your country and tell you what to do !

Ok, but what if a Muslim is a French citizen? A French person, who is a Muslim. The host country is their home country. They are not a visitor, but a resident.

The french problem is not about nationality but religion. Sure. Many girls in french colleges are french citizen. But there is also a problem of respect of authority, represented by the professors.

Okay, let's have a criticize view point : What would you do, How would you react, if tomorrow american muslims complain to have the right to make loud in the streets the prayer call (When they scream : "Allah U Akbar...Allah U Akbar...") at five A.M. , at the sunset ?

I know I exagerate, but not so much...

Do you think that you can make a serious curse in a class full of girls dressed like dark-vader ?

[Edited on 23-4-2004 by Nans DESMICHELS]

HAHA - well, it would probably be illegal (disturbing the peace). In fact, I think there have actually been lawsuites about this.

The way people dress is different - in public schools - they would and should be allowed to dress how they see fit. In private schools, this is different.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

The way people dress is different - in public schools - they would and should be allowed to dress how they see fit. In private schools, this is different.

In France, it's inverted :

You can dress according to your religion only in religious private schools...

In fact, headscarf also trouble peace in schools. I've explained you about tension between jewish and muslmis pupils in schools. Wearing religious symbols in school is often done to make these tensions inflame.

Do you think that you can make a serious curse in a class full of girls dressed like dark-vader ?

Darth Vader? That was not funny or intelligent. Is that how you make a point? By demeaning others?

Originally posted by jsobecky
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You missed the word organized, which changes the meaning. But what's a few words when you already have an agenda, eh?

I may write at a fourth grade level, but I find it difficult to dumb it down even further in order to reach the likes of children like you. Now run along like a good little boy and lodge a complaint.



[Edited on 23-4-2004 by jsobecky]

~yawn~ You had a point somewhere around here. Still waiting for something about that. Having a hard time explaining it?

as i remember it ... the koran only states that a muslim should dress modestly , the edict on a woman covering her hair comes from the hadith .
it has been argued to me in the past. by a muslim woman, that the wearing of a headscarf in a non muslim country would be drawing attention to oneself and as such immodest and unislamic .
i see the french law is part of a wider social debate in France concerning identity/frenchness and would think that the division in the arguement may be cross cultural
would anyone living in France care to advise ?

I am very against the banning of religious symbols worn by people.

I understand and applaud the desire of the French govornment to keep church and state seperate. Thus, like say, religious posters, texts, art in schools and public places I can udnerstand.

But telling someone they cant, on thier own person, wear religious ornaments, head dresses, jewlery, or clothing advertising thier religion is oppresive and wrong. I am not religious, and dont want religion forced upon people, but I also dont believe people should be told they cant adorn thier body with expressions of faith. The building and its physical contents are govornment property, but the people within arent. The govornment has no right to tell them what they can and cannot wear. It violates not only religious freedoms, but the freedom to do with your body as you please.

Forcing uniformity by repressing individuality and expression is a sure road to disaster.

Of course, this is from my standpoint. Its really a matter of what the french public feels, the constraints of french society and social order. What are thier opinions, thier level of tolerance, how do they want thier country run?

Its really a matter for them to decide. I know id go nuts and arge on if they tried that here, but this is a different culture.

To each thier own.

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Skadi, do you think dress codes should be enforced in public schools? Do you think someone has the right to wear a form of clothing that hides their facial features on a drivers license picture?

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Originally posted by jsobecky
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Skadi, do you think dress codes should be enforced in public schools? Do you think someone has the right to wear a form of clothing that hides their facial features on a drivers license picture?

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To your first question, absolutely not. I am against such dresscodes, except in cases where the dress is extreme (i.e. going to school naked, or wearing a floss sized g string bikini pushes the boundaries there. But if people wish to hide thier faces in public for whatever reason, That is there right, the govornment has no right to make them show thier faces.

As for drivers licensing, since driving is not an essential right, thats an area open for alot of things.

Like if the woman is wearing a veil over her face, then, if she wants to drive, she must remove it, if she wants to drive. However, muslim women in western countries, most only wear the headscarf that hides thier hair. Thier faces are clearly visible. Thus, I dont see why they cant get thier pictures taken like that, seeing how thats the only way they present themselves in public places. If they get pulled over by the cop, the picture on the license will show thier face, which is important. Since the woman will be wearing her headscarf, its no big deal.

Hair is not an important feature to be identified by. Our drivers liescences here in washington dont even put down your hair color anymore. Why? because hair is the most changable feature on our bodies. How many times does the average person in thier life change thier haircut, color, texture, and style? hell, on my drivers liscence, my hair was blue. its back to brown now. but my face doesnt change.

Thus, its stupud to make women remove obscuring headscarves that hide only thier hair. thier face is the most important idenitifier.

If a woman is wearing a full face viel, however, thats different, cuz it not only obscures her face, it obscures vision. Thus, if shes wearing it, she should not be driving. She must make that choice: supreme modesty or a drivers license.

Since many muslim women dont drive much anyway, i dont see the problem here?

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The reason I asked about the facial headgear was because of a case here in the US where a muslim woman refused to remove her facial headgear to have her driver's license picture taken. This to me is a security issue. I have no problem with her wearing it all day long in public, but it is necessary to know that the person on the driver's license is the person behind the headgear. That was the extent of it, no religious intolerance intended at all.

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Originally posted by jsobecky
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The reason I asked about the facial headgear was because of a case here in the US where a muslim woman refused to remove her facial headgear to have her driver's license picture taken. This to me is a security issue. I have no problem with her wearing it all day long in public, but it is necessary to know that the person on the driver's license is the person behind the headgear. That was the extent of it, no religious intolerance intended at all.

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Agreed, an ID is different than everyday life and the french have gone to far on this.

What next no crosses around your neck?