Why do Atheists care about religion?

reply to post by BrianP

Sorry for not being more specific. For example people that are following a different philosophy to Islam; may be labeled as infidels etc.
I speak from my own personal experience when growing-up. As a youngster, I was forced to attend Sunday-school, as well as designated Christian religion classes of scripture at school.
When reaching a certain age, I expressed to my parents that I no longer wanted to be a part of this (I missed the point); then I was branded as Atheist.
This is what i am talking about.
being branded by adults as one thing or another, built a healthy dislike for anything Christian.
Upon years of intrigue, I decided to embark on my own personal study of religions which leads me to where I am now.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Thank you for clarifying. Well there are some things to keep in mind just because someone calls you a name for somthing or other does not mean that they are talking for the whole group. This is very importiant in christianity, as there are numerous variations of christianity. Im not sticking up for christians here as i am not one nor am i an athiest.

reply to post by Gigatronix


Or any religious stance really, it's all in what the individuals do with it. Wouldn't you agree?

reply to post by BrianP

The athiests i have encountered are normaly just people that think they are better than everyone else because they are "smart" while using stand up commedians for most of their information.

Generalisation.

People need to keep in mind that Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were all athiests and all tried to get religion free states.

And so the actions of a few speak for the actions of the rest.

So next time an athiest tells you about all the violence that religion has caused ask them how many Athiests worked in the gulag.

I could also ask you how many died in the Nazi concentration camps.

When have ever seen an athiest charity group or ANY athiest humanitarian effort?

Like I've already said, charitable atheists work in secular groups so you only need look for the secular groups. unless it's a matter of church and state, keeping creationism out of schools, atheists haven't much motivation to form groups based on their atheism. Plus you are ignoring atheists who are individually charitable - which is going to be most charitable atheists.

Show me a group of athiests that do somthing to help man and not just themselves, they can battle in the courts to get God removed from everything but what do they have to contribute to society.

Now this was not a genuine question at all. You are insinuating that we don't contribute anything. Well, you should get to know more atheists, many will have great concern for the human race and where it is going.

reply to post by Welfhard


Just an observation, one who speaks in generalizations shouldn't condeme others for doing it as well.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Absolutely! Religion is not inherently bad, it doesn't make people bad, people do bad things because they want to, not because religion tells them too.I see this coming from some of these militant atheist types, ranting about how religion has killed more people than death itself or some nonsense.

Duh?

Bad guys take religion and twist it around to further their agenda.

Suppose you are a Catholic, and somebody comes along and says" catholicism is corrupt and evil". First of all does that make you evil? Of course not. Second, even if it were corrupt and evil, it's not because the concept of loving god and living a virtuous life is evil, it's because some bad dude inserted a bunch bad guy agenda stuff into it. At the core, most religions are good, it's when greedy men start plugging in "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" type stuff that it goes off track.

Don't blame Atheism, blame the Atheist!

Don't blame Christianity, blame the Christian!

Do we see the pattern here boys and girls? People choose their actions, their religions dont make choice for them.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Gigatronix]

reply to post by Welfhard


Why do people who have no kids worry about child rapists?
Why do democrats concern themselves with republicans?
Why does east inevitably lead west?

I've heard sweeping generalizations before, and this one is very common.

Atheism is a view point.

Why shouldn't I express it?
Why shouldn't you express it?
This is my world as much as it is anyone else's.

Is logic and reason that scary to religious fanatics?

Good topic.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Logic and reason you say? I do so love when someone attempts to back up what is in the end an opinion call by saying their beliefs are backed by "logic" and "reason" yet you see very little of either from them. And I think Giga points out excellently why that is.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Logic and reason you say? I do so love when someone attempts to back up what is in the end an opinion call by saying their beliefs are backed by "logic" and "reason" yet you see very little of either from them. And I think Giga points out excellently why that is.

This transcends opinion.
The God of the Bible has been checkmated so many times it's not funny.
He can't exist as written in the Bible.
Unless of course you make the claim that he isn't a logical being.
In which case any reasoning is pointless.
Might as well toss that brain he supposedly gave you out the window.
It holds no purpose.

Either way, there's no reason an atheist should not present his/her views.
Religious fanatics want to believe in something which is not challenged.
It doesn't work that way.
If I claimed to have an imaginary friend named Bob, I know damn well that it will be challenged with logic and reason.
Why should anyone begrudge my right to challenge an equally illogical belief?

reply to post by TruthParadox


Too bad I wasn't talking about "the god of the bible" or more precisely the Christian god. It's illogical to assume that at this juncture we can be really sure as to whether or not such a being exists and refuting the concept based on what Christianity, monotheism or anything said by man is silly at best. But some call it logic and reason, which I find funny.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Also there is something to be said for the sheer amount of oppositional rhetoric is put into the whole thing. On both sides.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I'm not claiming that no god exists.
I'm claiming that the God of the Bible can't exist as described in the text.
Since you're not talking about the God of the Bible, that point is irrelevant anyway, but it's my primary reason for expressing my opinions, because I have something to say that isn't just an opinion.

The lack of logic in any religion should be apparent just by looking at it.
To claim something as an ultimate truth which has no evidence. That's illogical. You can't escape that fact.
For me to claim that no god exists would likewise be illogical, and I readily admit that.
The key point is that we should use what we have to work with, and not what's in our imagination.

There is no evidence of a pink dragon in my closet. It would be illogical of me to say there is a pink dragon in my closet. It would be logical of another to say there isn't a pink dragon in my closet.
We go by what we know, what we can see, feel, hear, taste, or smell.
After that, anything becomes an assumption, and as an assumption it becomes illogical to claim it as the ultimate truth, and completely logical to deny an ultimate truth.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Everything you say is an opinion and you contradict yourself sir, you may get lost in your twists and turns but not going to lose me. Firstly, you say that religion is illogical because it claims an ultimate truth, does not atheism claim that the ultimate truth is that there is no god? It is in the definition after all. And just in case you don't believe me:

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...
Secondly, you go on to say that claiming there is no god is illogical and then by proxy *most likely in an attempt to lose me* say that is logical.
If you're going to be this ingenious I am going to find it hard to take you seriously. But this is a taste of the oppositional rhetoric I was talking about.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

well im picking up here is that you claim that athiests will give to secular charities and claiming that something baing secular has somthing to do with it being athiest. So would you not give or help a cause only because those involved had a religion? I see that athiests want to remove remove remove without adding anything. The theory of evolution can explain no more than intelligent design, both have tremendous lack of proof and neither can explain the female orgasm or dark matter. And yes i can point out that when Athiests have run countries they have killed off their own people. When athiests stop picking on religions and start presenting themselves better they will start to get more respect from people. I can say from my experience that when the church of ______ knocks on my door on sunday morning wanting to talk to me about jesus it gets kind of annoying but when athiests start going on their poin of view it comes off rude. Not because i do not agree with them but because I can't find one that communicates their views without attacking religion. look for yourself this is what an athiest chat board looks like. here how do you think these people present themselves? After reading is there any mystery on why athiests get such a bad reputation. this one
im not saying that being an athiest or having a religion is right or wrong all i know is that one group seems to have a better concept of public relations.
So if secular things are in agreement with being an athiest couldn't a christian make the argument that athiests are trying to make public schools athiest schools? That would make athiests no better than what they are trying to fight. You want YOUR beliefs put in place of others.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by BrianP]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Everything you say is an opinion and you contradict yourself sir, you may get lost in your twists and turns but not going to lose me.

Firstly, you say that religion is illogical because it claims an ultimate truth, does not atheism claim that the ultimate truth is that there is no god? It is in the definition after all. And just in case you don't believe me:

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...

No, most atheists don't claim to know there is no god...
Perhaps you should have read my above post where I said I don't claim to know that there is no god.

Read the definition again, this time without the blinders on.

2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity

A disbelief in anything is not an absolute claim that it doesn't exist, it's just a disbelief.
A lack of a belief.
The 'a' in 'atheism' means without.
It literally means without theism.
Not "A belief which claims to know that no god exists".
Just a lack of belief in a god.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Secondly, you go on to say that claiming there is no god is illogical and then by proxy *most likely in an attempt to lose me* say that is logical.
If you're going to be this ingenious I am going to find it hard to take you seriously.

Claiming there is no god is illogical.
But denying an 'ultimate truth' as an ultimate truth is not illogical, as it was based on an assumption to begin with.

Tell me, would it be logical or illogical for you to claim there is no pink dragon in my closet, after looking in the closet and seeing no evidence?

This is where you become dishonest with yourself in an attempt to hold your argument untainted.
You know damn well that it's completely logical to deny a claim of truth which has no evidence, but not to deny that such a thing would be impossible to exist (fine line).

Pink dragons may exist in the cosmos somewhere. Who the hell knows.
But there is no evidence for such a creature in my closet, so it would be illogical for me to say there is and logical for you to say there isn't.

All I'm saying is that claiming something exists which has no evidence is illogical.
And bringing up the fact that it's illogical is not illogical but logical.

reply to post by TruthParadox


*face palm* Who do you think you are fooling?

This transcends opinion.

Followed by this later:

No, most atheists don't claim to know there is no god...
Perhaps you should have read my above post where I said I don't claim to know that there is no god.

Read the definition again, this time without the blinders on.

2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity

A disbelief in anything is not an absolute claim that it doesn't exist, it's just a disbelief.
A lack of a belief.
The 'a' in 'atheism' means without.
It literally means without theism.
Not "A belief which claims to know that no god exists".
Just a lack of belief in a god.

I have read your post, you contradict yourself left and right, by the way. Now the definition of belief for those that aren't sure:

be·lief (bĭ-lēf')
n.
1) The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2) Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3) Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

[Middle English bileve, alteration (influenced by bileven, to believe) of Old English gelēafa; see leubh- in Indo-European roots.]

Synonyms: These nouns denote mental acceptance of the truth, actuality, or validity of something: a statement unworthy of belief; an idea steadily gaining credence; testimony meriting credit; has no faith in a liar's assertions. See Also Synonyms at opinion.
Antonym: disbelief

SOURCE:dictionary.reference.com...
Now of opinion:

–noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6. a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.

SOURCE:dictionary.reference.com...

Now, are you going to continue to deny what I am saying while describing yourself doing exactly what I am accusing you of doing anytime soon? Or do you think you're fooling me?

Should be noting that claiming something doesn't exist when you have no way of knowing is illogical. But, hey, rhetoric is soo much more attractive.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
*face palm* Who do you think you are fooling?

??

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

This transcends opinion.

Followed by this later:

Yep. Look at my words very literally. Reread what I actually said.
When I said my views transcend opinion, I was talking about the flaws in the Bible. The fact that the description of God in the Bible contradicts itself on numerous occasions, and therefor is illogical for such a being to exist as written therein...

Seriously.. Don't take my words out of context. It's not nice.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
I have read your post, you contradict yourself left and right, by the way. Now the definition of belief for those that aren't sure:

sigh... And yet all these supposed contradictions turned out to be you misreading what I was actually saying.

Look at my words very literally and don't make assumptions please.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Now, are you going to continue to deny what I am saying while describing yourself doing exactly what I am accusing you of doing anytime soon? Or do you think you're fooling me?

What in God's name are you talking about?
I know the definition of belief.
What's your point?
Atheism is not a claim that no God exists.
It's a lack of theism. That's it.
I can give you several references that state just that.
Do you think I'm merely making it up? That I don't know what the word means or what I describe myself to be?
I really don't know what you're arguing against when you never even got the initial point I was trying to make...

reply to post by TruthParadox

Seeing as to how you need it, here you go:

claim (klm)
tr.v. claimed, claim·ing, claims
1. To demand, ask for, or take as one's own or one's due: claim a reward; claim one's luggage at the airport carousel.
2. To take in a violent manner as if by right: a hurricane that claimed two lives.
3. To state to be true, especially when open to question; assert or maintain: claimed he had won the race; a candidate claiming many supporters.
4. To deserve or call for; require: problems that claim her attention.
n.
1. A demand for something as rightful or due.
2. A basis for demanding something; a title or right.
3. Something claimed in a formal or legal manner, especially a tract of public land staked out by a miner or homesteader.
4.
a. A demand for payment in accordance with an insurance policy or other formal arrangement.
b. The sum of money demanded.
5. A statement of something as a fact; an assertion of truth: makes no claim to be a cure.

SOURCE:www.thefreedictionary.com...

You claimed logic and reason backs the assertions of an atheist, in a slippery way of course, this is false and I am using you as an example. Thank you for proving my point.

And for the second time now, I am not a Christian and neither does Christianity embody the only possibility as far as the concept of things we would call "god" goes so please leave that drum alone already.

And you continued misdefining of atheism is funny, despite the fact I posted the definition. Read it all this time please.

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...
Yep, no lack of theism entry. Now for theism:

Main Entry: the·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈthē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1678
: belief in the existence of a god or gods ; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
— the·ist \-ist\ noun or adjective
— the·is·tic \thē-ˈis-tik\ also the·is·ti·cal \-ti-kəl\ adjective
— the·is·ti·cal·ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by BrianP


I could argue that atheists are trying to make public schools secular, and stop religion imposing on the curriculum. A secular school would teach nothing pertaining to religion, meaning that anyone of any belief system will be treated equally and the school would be completely open to them.

I'm not equating secular to atheistic, as the former is religiousless and the latter is anti-religious.

one can imagine in what fracture one lives when one looks and says there is no God, there is nothing right here..