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Why do Atheists care about religion?

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posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:01 PM
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ZILLA: Lovely that you mention the Nazis. Their belt buckles all said "Gott mitt uns." "God is with us." Vastly more moral than any atheist, is it?

UFO: "God" can be used in different senses. The Nazis were using it in a way to hide exactly what they were referring to. What they were calling "God" was simply a manufactured concept having more in common with social Darwinism than ultimate reality.




posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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CGULL: We're getting worked up over what is essentially a difference in the outlooks we have about life. There is no one true way, Christ himself is said to have said much the same thing. "There are many houses in my Father's mansion, if it were not so, would I not have told you." I may be paraphrasing here, but the jist of it is...if it's good enough for Christ, who am I to quibble over how people come to the truth?

UFO: No, there are many houses, not many ways to truth. He also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the father but by me."



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by ufoabduction
UFO: "God" can be used in different senses. The Nazis were using it in a way to hide exactly what they were referring to. What they were calling "God" was simply a manufactured concept having more in common with social Darwinism than ultimate reality.


Your situational ethics are showing. Most Germans were either Protestant or Catholic, and had regular church services. They were "good" Christians while they were killing millions.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:10 PM
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Lovely that you mention the Nazis. Their belt buckles all said "Gott mitt uns." "God is with us." Vastly more moral than any atheist, is it?


Right on!

My understanding was the Vatican's policy of non-involvement stemmed from Hitler's insistence that they were building a new Holy Roman Empire. Hitler was a Catholic. Proves nothing. The pontiff was a Nazi. Also proves nothing.
That said, here's an example of religious involvement in government policy. Doesn't really work, does it?

I think evoking the holocaust isn't going to get anyone anywhere in this thread.
It's unnecessary, and rather tasteless. It really doesn't prove the point - rather the opposite - that was being made.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:15 PM
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BADGER: If you are a Christian, and would strongly object to laws influenced by the teachings of the Koran, you should also object to laws influenced by the Bible.

UFO: Laws have to be influenced by truth, which is God, or ultimate reality. In order to know that truth exists as a reference point, you have to assume that there is an ultimate reality that we all look to as a reference point. THAT is what we seek in religion and in science. Atheism destroys the basis of law. The teachings of the Koran and the Bible, to the extent they are truly interpreted according to the will of ultimate reality, provide a basis for law.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by ufoabduction
 


Please read your U2Us!



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by ufoabduction
UFO: Laws have to be influenced by truth, which is God, or ultimate reality. In order to know that truth exists as a reference point, you have to assume that there is an ultimate reality that we all look to as a reference point. THAT is what we seek in religion and in science. Atheism destroys the basis of law. The teachings of the Koran and the Bible, to the extent they are truly interpreted according to the will of ultimate reality, provide a basis for law.


Your assumptions are baseless. No God is needed to be moral. Unless you can prove otherwise.

I also notice that you are limiting your sources to the Bible and Koran. I guess that means the other 2/3s of the planet are just as immoral as atheist? (Or it means you have no idea what you're talking about. (I know the way to bet on that one.))



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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Your post timing is fantastic - espcially the bit about scouting. here is a memo snippet when I asked about scouting leaders in the UK (literally yesterday):

"To answer your question about recruiting new Adult Leaders; all Leaders must not deny the existence of a higher being/God. The Association is a diverse organisation that welcomes members from all backgrounds; as long as they are able to make their Promise. Part of the promise "To do my duty to God" requires that the person taking the promise believes in a higher being - for example "God", "Allah", "Dharma".

This is a stock answer and the practical realities are different (most leaders, whatever their beliefs would not touch any religion with a barge pole - they are simply not qualified and would not want to pervade the childs already family beliefs)

As an agnostic, I care about religion as it it (from Richard Dawkins words) basically uses child indroctrination techniques. I would not have a problem with religion if it was given to a child from 10 - 20 year old in small doses and they find this their path = rather than have it forced down their throat at such a young age and repeated so many times that it must be true (bit like 2012 conspiracy theory). But we know what would happen - most religions would cease to be.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:23 PM
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Laws and indeed morals are there for people to get on in with each other. It is a code of conduct.

Do we need codes of conduct without God - YES - every time you get in a car you are driving using a set of rules/laws that did not get handed down from God now were they dictated to anyone.

Ironically the highway code (rules for driving) has now sold more than the bible.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:23 PM
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ZILLA: Your situational ethics are showing. Most Germans were either Protestant or Catholic, and had regular church services. They were "good" Christians while they were killing millions.

UFO: Religion is not God. It is simply the imperfect human response to ultimate reality. You cannot blame God if people refuse to do what He requires. Atheism has no basis for judging the Nazis, because they were in charge. You are judging the Germans based on your own opinion, not an objective reference point, because you have none. You are violating your atheistic principles, I would say.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by ufoabduction
UFO: Religion is not God. It is simply the imperfect human response to ultimate reality. You cannot blame God if people refuse to do what He requires. Atheism has no basis for judging the Nazis, because they were in charge. You are judging the Germans based on your own opinion, not an objective reference point, because you have none. You are violating your atheistic principles, I would say.



Here we go again with the custom definitions. Making things up as you go along to CYA is not going to move this thread along.

You can try to tell me what I can and cannot judge, but you'll fail in that.

BTW, I did a study on the demographic composition if the Schutzstaffel. It matched the German population almost exactly.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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ZILLA: Your assumptions are baseless. No God is needed to be moral. Unless you can prove otherwise.

I also notice that you are limiting your sources to the Bible and Koran. I guess that means the other 2/3s of the planet are just as immoral as atheist? (Or it means you have no idea what you're talking about. (I know the way to bet on that one.))

UFO: I agree that one can be moral without God. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that being moral is irrational without God. Your complaint about sources reveals you are not aware of the meaning of the term "God." You might think of God as "truth." There are many sources that look imperfectly to the truth, but we have to believe it exists in order to find it. Atheism, unlike most religions, does not allow truth to exist.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by ufoabduction
UFO: I agree that one can be moral without God. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that being moral is irrational without God. Your complaint about sources reveals you are not aware of the meaning of the term "God." You might think of God as "truth." There are many sources that look imperfectly to the truth, but we have to believe it exists in order to find it. Atheism, unlike most religions, does not allow truth to exist.


It's good that we now have someone who can authoritatively state what is rational and what is not.

I think of "God" as a con foisted on the world by people who were too lazy to work for a living.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 02:45 PM
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I personally don't believe in atheists. Of course my friend who claims to be with gets really ticked off by this. She puts her faith in science, and declares it the only truth. I say then, that science is her God.

She's spent a ton of money on gastric bypass surgery to lose weight and cosmetics and face creams - I say youth and beauty are her gods. She doesn't believe that either.

Of course I am pagan. I do not understand this concept of God that the athiests have of some man in the sky that makes everything.

Best I can figure, we just don't quite understand where other people are coming from - everyone has their framework. I have no problem with God on the dollar as long as the God is not named. It might be the God of trickery to me as paper becomes value.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by Next_Heap_With
"WE THE ATHEIST" care because religious fanatics are destroying our world..slowing down our evolution (technological,intellectual,etc/) and killing people in the name of the "Lord"....

we are sharing this planet you know... keep your BS inside your own homes, creeps...

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Next_Heap_With]


This must be the worst assumption or guess i have ever heard.

Religious fanatics are destroying our world.

If someone is a religious fanatic it could just as well be a atheist misusing religion. I dont think a atheist is more honest then anyone else.

It would also make a lot of sense if the religious fanatic is a atheist. They know very well what powers they can obtain by using religion on people. Religion can be used as a tool. A Atheist can use this tool to.

They to can live a lie if they can gain a profit by it.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


"If someone is a religious fanatic it could just as well be a atheist misusing religion. I dont think a atheist is more honest then anyone else."

Nor any less honest. People are people. Unfortunately, there are organizations bent on exploiting them. Governments, religions, corporations, etc.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by spy66
 


"If someone is a religious fanatic it could just as well be a atheist misusing religion. I dont think a atheist is more honest then anyone else."

Nor any less honest. People are people. Unfortunately, there are organizations bent on exploiting them. Governments, religions, corporations, etc.


Exactly



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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Everywhere you may find people in the world you encounter truth.

The Jews have it, the Christians have it, the Muslims have it - and yet - when you place them together - they disagree?

How is this possible - surely truth in God is universal? After all - God is truth is he not? Wherein then lies this schism?

Is this some fault of Gods? Did he conceive of a truth in so many parts that it can't be unified? Am I alone - that I am loathe to lay the blame at the feet of the Almighty?

What then is the nature of this truth, such that it cannot be reconciled even among those who all agree that it is He indeed who formed all men from dust?

I am agnostic (though many would label me an atheist), and I am not willing to be persecuted for not holding faith where the earthly instruments of an Almighty and Supreme being bicker together over trivial elements of what he might or might not want them to do.

When Gods truth becomes clear to all, such that there is no schism among all Gods children - then by all means I willingly bear your scorn should I not also yearn for that understanding.

Those who wish to control peoples minds have a far easier task when they are filled with certain truths - those who have the truth have no need to ask any more questions.

Our media willingly supplies people with truth, so that they need no longer ponder or question.

Beware of the truth - for it is more deadly than any poison, if you find it in your mind - discard it quickly and replace it with doubt.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by Amagnon
 


"Am I alone - that I am loathe to lay the blame at the feet of the Almighty? "

I don't lay blame at the feet of fictional beings.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 04:55 PM
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Very interesting and such a topic is destined to bring about replies.
First of all I believe in a god but not a god that we can define as such a god is something we lack knowledge of. Our limited views and personal agendas are relentlessly tweaked with biased information and the lack of information in almost every circumstance in the fact that we cannot speak directly to god. Think you can? Then you are in some way convincing yourself through your irrational self induced delusion regardless of the logic you see behind it. IMHO

The main problem with religion is that humanity feels it necessary to pass on enlightenment to others as we naturally want to help each other see what we see or have what we consider the truth. We sometimes fail to understand that it is not our divine purpose to pass on enlightenment.

Anyone that thinks they have the truth or the answers will immediately try to give it to others in hopes that it will enlighten them or help them. It is in good hopes and we are all, in a sense trying to unify with each other.

The problem that religion imposes and politics and many more is that what one person considers truth, is not truth for many more as each individual has a different approach to most situations and has a different way of explaining things from their own personal perspective.

It has been widely accepted that ones individual truths or what one individually considers truth needs to be spread to others. IE: ( I found the truth, I must share it so others can prosper as I have, I must show them the truth)

This leads to wars and disagreements and established religions which try to divide and convert. There are many that do not, but until we all realize that our truth is only ours individually, we will continue to fight as siblings on this planet over matters that matter not. We need to respect each others views and for the love of god, stop pushing "our truth" onto others. We can only enlighten our self and if others ask for our opinion or advice, then and only then should we give a reasonable explanation from our viewpoint without forcing our personal beliefs onto them.


From day 1 we have continued the method stated above. From day 1 we have passed down our illogical thinking and ways to more and more. We wonder why we are constantly at war. Faulty tradition has been imposed from generation to generation further creating this sense of chaos as we feel it necessary to continue our "individual" truth and through time it gets more and more tweaked.

Through time more people think they have the "truth" and as being human, feel it necessary to enlighten others. If you have to enlighten others with "YOUR" truth please understand their disagreements. But please also understand we all will believe what makes sense to us and what we want even if it ends this world.

In closing I will leave 2 quotes:

Why is there enough religion to incite war but not instill tolerance?
and
Every mans journey is his own.

For those that want to whine about me imposing my opinion, I will keep my opinion but you asked for it to be expressed. I think we all take it a little too personally sometimes and need to just let people be. Can't we coincide with separate agendas.... And one of the reasons many atheist's feel it necessary to explain and speak out is because they have family members in fantasy religions or vice versa. I know I do and I care about them. The hard part is letting them do as I stated above but it must be that way. Such is the beauty of choice.

Time will tell.



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