The Betty Hill Starmap - New insight

Indeed a fantastic, well-researched and certainly interesting post!

I just have 1 question though. If there are billions upon billions of stars in the Universe (that we know about), isn't it possible that it could just be the chance lining up of stars in this pattern?

Or could the pattern be found somewhere else?

[edit on 11-4-2009 by JipStix]

Although this kind of stuff is way above my head I just wanted to congratulate you on the OP which actually made sense and was new information for me to digest, this is a quality thread and I appreciate the effort you obviously put into compiling it for us.

Great thread, this is how things should be done.

First, get the facts, then discuss them, and this was a great gathering and presentation of facts.

Now I have to learn more about this.

Star, flag and a little more.

reply to post by SpookyVince


There is new thinking that red dwarfs would be ideal candidates for planets to support life. The planets would have to be much closer to the red dwarf star. The red dwarf star is quite stable and can have a life of trillions of years. They have also discovered extrasolar planets around red dwarfs.

en.wikipedia.org...

I thought I would add this to show that the red dwarfs could be part of the starmap shown. Excellent thread, starred and flagged.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that collection of stars only visible from the southern hemisphere? That would make it even more remarkable, to me, if the Hills couldn't even see the constellations to reference them.

reply to post by SpookyVince


Great thread!Star and flag.........Maybe you should come over to my thread or I will refer the skeptics there to you here!Good research,well done.

I think you may have some really groundbreaking work here. Like the OP said, the odds of her drawing pointing to sun-like stars that could possibly support life, AND are slightly older (hence a civilization might be advanced enough for space travel) are very low by chance. This blows my mind because you have to consider the possibility that we may know where some of the aliens that visit Earth come from.

Well not much to say really but wow!!

going to go melt my brain and read all this.. can someone give him an appluse or something???

S+F

one of the best threads iv seen on ATS well done mate totaly good stuff

reply to post by ArMaP


See..........That's why I like you type of skepticism!Now you see why I had this one!Again,excellent work OP!

This is indeed what the prototypical ATS thread should resemble and too often does not.

Starred and flagged... well done.

I must mirror the poster above me, cause this is a remarkable and very well researched presentation. I would love to see if I could work with the celestia program and see if I could map this or plot a course to the solar system... I think celestia has possible planet info for some solar systems. (I encourage people to get this program at: www.shatters.net... it is a free program Recomended by Thunderfoot from youtube. )
Star and Flag!

Originally posted by JipStix

I just have 1 question though. If there are billions upon billions of stars in the Universe (that we know about), isn't it possible that it could just be the chance lining up of stars in this pattern?

Or could the pattern be found somewhere else?

The pattern could and indeed almost certainly is found in a very similar form in other parts of the universe if not the galaxy if only because of (as you point out) the vast scale of the universe, however that isn't really the point. What is remarkable about the alleged starmap is that it very accurately coaligns with a section of space which is right in our cosmic backyard, and that the systems in the "trade route" are all very similar to our own sun and good candidates for supporting earth-like habitable planest.

Excellent thread OP, I remember doing some similar research myself a little while back and being pleasantly surprised by how close scrutiny of the starmap only serves to strengthen its validity rather than discrediting it as I thought would be the case.

I notice that Sol is marked down as a trade route. Just for fun, would anyone like to speculate what exactly it is that is being traded? Genetic material (in the form of human and other terrestial species DNA) in exchange for technology would be my guess.

Great post Spooky,
and it makes you wonder where we fit in with all of this,
us being "out in the sticks"so to speak.
I haven't taken everything in yet,
so i'm asking how far are we from those star systems,
how far are they from one another,
are they central to our Galaxy or what..i'm just being lazy I guess!

There are many points to consider, thanks OP for a good thread. I don't have the time to look for references, but off the top of my head I know a few points should be considered with a skeptical point of view:
- first Betty Hill's map does not match closely the star map drawn by Marjorie Fish. The geometry is quite different and many dots do not match any star, including the one in the middle, and many stars were dropped from the search including G, K, F stars. That's cherry picking evidence.
- The solar system at the time of the "abduction" is a better match than the stars proposed by Marjorie Fish: www.kochkyborg.de...
- If no match could be found, looking further, a few light years, would find a match sooner or later, so finding a good match at such huge distances from Earth is not surprising.
- The map is not the view of a star field from Earth or from the home planet of the ETs. It is seen from an arbitrary point in space, so stars CAN be moved around a lot by changing the POV and the type of perspective
- There were many inaccuracies in the Gliese star catalog's distances dating from the 1950s used by Marjorie Fish's calculations.
- Why would the map not include stars that are not type G,F,K? When you draw a map, you don't put dots for cities only.

Astronomers like Carl Sagan were utterly unconvinced.

reply to post by smurfy


Zeta Reticuli is approximately 39.5 light years from Earth.

reply to post by jkrog08
Thanks for that JK.Given the amount
of material that is needed to know
to make any comment on this post,
I don't think i'll make any more posts here
for let's see,another year?

reply to post by kidflash2008


Indeed, and as a matter of fact, one of the prime candidates for an earth-like planet is now around a M class star: Gliese 581 is a red dwarf around which up to 3 planets, depending on the circumstances could potentially be life sustainable. Then again, if you read it carefully, we end up for the closest planet with the rotational lock problem.

New ideas come up regularly, and yes, that's why we should remain open.

Originally posted by nablator
first Betty Hill's map does not match closely the star map drawn by Marjorie Fish. The geometry is quite different and many dots do not match any star, including the one in the middle, and many stars were dropped from the search including G, K, F stars. That's cherry picking evidence.

Well, that as such is open to discussion. Indeed, Carl Sagan and others (see references posted) have discussed it. However, stating that the geometry is all wrong is not very accurate. Drawing out of memory a 3D map on a sheet of paper can produce results that are, at first at least, not totally respectful of reality. However, given a slightly different tilt, that map is incredibly close to what the stars Marjorie Fish had labeled in shows. As a matter of fact, what I am implying here is that such a coincidence is incredibly unlikely when picking "stars at random" "to match a purpose".

reply to post by SpookyVince



Didn't read all of the thread yet, but I just wanted to pop in and say this was the best OP I have read in the UFO forum to date!

Excellent work, man!

I'll be back to read up on it later and offer any insight if I can. (doubtful, too well presented. Doesn't appear that there is much to add)

Awesome work!

S&F for sure!

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR


I'll be back to read up on it later and offer any insight if I can. (doubtful, too well presented. Doesn't appear that there is much to add)

Awesome work!

S&F for sure!

See, this is the problem with the OP. He did outstanding research and covered just about every base that I can think of. As a matter of fact, he covered bases that, even if i would have thought of them, would not have taken the time to research anywhere near as good as he had done (assuming it is a male poster, anyway).

OP, outstanding work. You keep this type of stuff up, and you will be "ATS Famous" (whatever that means...LOL). Star and flag for you.

One consideration:

Why is the HZ written in stone? There are schools of thought on Earth that suppose a Sun that doesn't warm the Earth via heat, but rather via interactions in the upper atmosphere with the highly charged particles that bombard our planet via the "Solar wind".

If the atmosphere were able to convert the charged particles of another star into planetary heat, it may make the "HZ" completely relative to the capabilities found in that particular star and planet.

First line.

Great job man, excellent research. S&F!