Challenge Match: skeptic1 vs TheMythLives: "Public or Private? You're Being Schooled"

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posted on Apr, 10 2009 @ 12:39 PM
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The topic for this debate is “Public vs Private schools."

skeptic1 will be arguing the "Pro" Public School position and will open the debate.
TheMythLives will argue the "Pro" Private School position.

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This debate will commence on Sunday 04/12/2009 at 11:00am




posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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....many thanks to Semper for setting this debate up, thanks to TheMythLives for agreeing to this topic, and hopefully, the readers and judges will enjoy this as much as we plan to.....

 


Public or Private?? Which is better? This is the age old question parents face these days when trying to decide what school to send their children to. I went to private schools throughout my schooling and in several ways, I feel like I may have missed out on some things or been too sheltered from things.

Private schools do have their pros, but there are too many areas where private schools don't have to follow the rules. They can do whatever they wish and that can cause problems for them and their students later on down the road.

I am going to lay out the basic fundamentals of public schooling first:

* Cost: Public schools cannot charge tuition; they are funded by tax dollars

* Admissions: By law, public schools must admit and educate all children; they cannot discriminate

* Governance: Public schools must follow all federal, state, and local laws in educating children

* Curriculum: Public schools offer a general program, designed for all children, which usually includes math, English, reading, writing, science, history and physical education. In addition to these key subjects, many public schools offer programs in music and art. In a public school, the substance of what children learn is mandated by the state and learning is measured through state standardized tests.

* Teachers: All teachers in a public school are usually state certified or, at a minimum, working toward certification. Certification ensures that a teacher has gone through the training required by the state, which includes student teaching and coursework.

* Students: Diversity is maintained; children may be split up based on interests or ability

* Special Needs Students: Public schools have to admit and educate all children so, most public schools have special education programs and teachers who are trained to work with students who have particular needs

* Class Size: Many states recognize the value of small classes and have provided funding to keep class sizes small in grades K-3. As students become older, class size tends to get bigger in public schools, especially in large school districts and urban schools

So what does all of this mean? Public schools are held to strict standards of education and inclusion. Private schools are not.

As this debate progresses, I will point out both the educational and extracurricular benefits that public schools provide over private schools and go deeper into the problems that private schools have that public schools are immune to.



posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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Much thanks to Semper for setting this debate up and much thanks to the fierce Skeptic1 who accepted to debate this subject.

________________________________________________________

Private or Public? The age old question for educational standards. I went to a private school throughout my childhood and boy am I glad I did. It was much better than any private school, and that I am sure about. Private schools gave me the education that I needed to excel. Now lets get to the points:

Money

Yes everything is about the money now a days. Tax dollars support the Public Schools, but this is not always a good thing (which I will get into later in the debate), whereas Private Schools, must survive on donations, tution and other forms of income. Private schools must be in top shape to generate interest for prospective students. Top shape means- Clean facilities, continueing growth of the schools departments, and state of the art techonology and buildings.

Extracurricular Activities

Private schools offer Football, Baseball, Soccer, Baseball, and many other sports activities. Nearly all Private schools offer this athletic program, while many Public schools cannot afford this program. Most Private Schools have there own Library and research areas, where computers are available to research. Art Club is a huge thing in Private schools, Art is offered at alost every Private school. Spanish class or Spainish Club is also another big thing in Private Schools, by offering there students a chance to learn a second language. And many, many other Extracurrical activities.

Acheivement

Private School kids are much more likely to succeed. Why? Because of the ability to work with a teacher one on one in small classes. In many private schools the average student to teacher ratio is about, lets say 17:1, that mean 17 kids to one teacher. Now the number maybe higher and it maybe lower. But one thing is for sure, Public schools have at least 35-45 students in a class easily (I am sure no one will argue here). That is at least a 45:1 ratio. A huge number in which kids are not getting the attention that they need.

Teachers

All Private school teachers must be certified. In most cases Private schools will tend to hire people with more advanced degrees, then people with just an education degree. Like a Private school hiring a Spanish Teacher, the Private will go after a person with a Spanish degree and not recycle your teachers like a lot of Public schools do.

Students

They are not split up for intended purpose and sometimes girls and boys go to school together, it just depends on the school. But for the Private schools that split up there kids, it is completely psychological. They want their kids to not be distracted by girls or girls distracted by boys. It helps maintain a strong and educational experience. By putting school work before relationships.

Special Needs

Many Private schools and I mean many devote and even create there own centers for children with learning disabilities. If your child has dyslexia, a private school may take your child during recess and help them to learn to read better. ADD is also taken in consideration. Wheelchair bound kids are taken into consideration, elevators and ramps are created for him. Private schools do not sit on their butts and watch them struggle they help.

Financial Aid

Many kids that go to private schools are offered fininacial asistance to families who cannot afford it. Not to mention Tution break-up-pay (Month by Month). If you have multiple children, your tution is lowered. If you have an Alumini in your family, your tution is lowered to completely waived. Financial Aid by Catholic Charities, the aid is there and will continue to be there to help other.

What will I cover in this debate:

Many of things. I hope that the readers and the judges take into account everything that will be stated by both sides. Because this debate is only getting started and about to heat up.



posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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First, I will address a few of my opponent's points:


All Private school teachers must be certified. In most cases Private schools will tend to hire people with more advanced degrees, then people with just an education degree. Like a Private school hiring a Spanish Teacher, the Private will go after a person with a Spanish degree and not recycle your teachers like a lot of Public schools do.


No, they don't have to be certified by the state. That is a misconception. They will hire people with more advanced degrees, but those people are not certified by the state as teachers.


Many Private schools and I mean many devote and even create there own centers for children with learning disabilities. If your child has dyslexia, a private school may take your child during recess and help them to learn to read better. ADD is also taken in consideration. Wheelchair bound kids are taken into consideration, elevators and ramps are created for him. Private schools do not sit on their butts and watch them struggle they help.


Many private schools are devoted to children with special needs, but private schools in general do not have to admit those with special needs. As a result, most private schools do not have special education programs or teachers trained to work with students with severe special needs. Private schools will try to help all the students they admit, but extra resources may also come at an additional cost.

 


So, are private schools better? Not necessarily.


Many people assume that students enrolled in private schools perform better academically than do students attending public schools. The Center on Education Policy (CEP), however, disagrees. According to a new CEP study released this week, private school students and public school students perform equally on achievement tests in math, reading, science, and history.
Source

From the same source:

* Low-income students attending public high schools performed just as well academically as low-income students attending private high schools.
* Neither private school students nor public school students with similar background characteristics were more likely to attend college.
* Young adults at age 26 who attended private school are no more likely to be engaged in civic activities than young adults who attended a public school.
* Private school graduates aren't any more satisfied with the jobs they hold at age 26 than are public school graduates.

The one area where private schools have it over public schools, according to this study, is in SAT scores. But, that is more due to the fact that private schools offer more prep courses for the SATs than public schools do.

Overall, though, public schools and private schools come out pretty much equal.

 


Public school students also seem to out-perform their private school counterparts when it comes to math. This is due to two things:

* Certified math teachers
* A modern, reform oriented math curriculum

If class size, school size, parental involvement, and instructional practices are the same, then public school students do just as well if not better than private school students on math tests.

There doesn't seem to be a problem with the public schools there.

Source

 


I went to private schools from kindergarten on through graduation from highschool. I went with the same people, year after year, and we all grew up together.

Sheltering us seemed to be the priority. Yes, we were educated in reading, writing, and arithmetic, but we weren't educated in reality. Through kindergarten and 12 years of school, I never shared a class with a minority. I never had a minority teacher. I was never exposed to anything other than Southern Baptist ideals and general educational subjects.

I started college during my senior year of high school, and boy was I surprised. Private school prepared me in the educational sense but did not prepare me for the real world. It did not prepare me for people who didn't look like me, people who didn't sound like me, and people who didn't think like me.

It was a shock to my system.

Luckily, I was able to adapt. It took some time, but I did. That's why I kind of feel like I was cheated out of something with going to private schools for all those years. I never had a chance to experience reality. It was a good education, but an education in a social "bubble" that did not reflect the world as it truly was outside the school grounds.

School isn't only about educating children in history, science, math, English, and various electives. It is also about preparing children to grow up in society and teaching them how to deal with the real world. I didn't get that part. I had to learn that the hard way.

 


With all of the "complaints" about our public school system, how to we try to make it better?

1. Increased parental activity: I don't care if a child is in the best private school in the country, if the parents aren't involved, the child will not perform to his or her optimum best. Parents need to be a part of their children's education, talk with the school, talk with the teachers, and work with their kids in order to make their educational experience the best it can possibly be.

2. Get political agendas out of the school system: Teacher's unions are political organizations and they tend to help form the curriculum. The public school system needs to adopt nationwide, uniform standards for testing. That way, we can see what works and what doesn't and whether geography plays a part in low test scores or whether there are academic problem areas that spread across all areas of concern.

3. Solid academic standards for promotion and graduation: This would end "social promotions". If we could restore faith in academic standards, employers might again start to rely on the judgment of our academic institutions in evaluating the basic abilities of graduates.

4. Attune education to the experiences, interests, and aptitudes of today's young people: As generations progress, so does the need for the school system in the US to move with the times. Evidence clearly shows that for today's youth, a well-designed, computer-based learning game is far more effective in teaching concepts than assigning a chapter in a textbook—especially if it's a homework chapter. We need to get past our fears about inappropriate subject matter on the Internet and open the doors to the wealth of information that's available with a few computer mouse clicks

Times are changing, and the school system in this country needs to reflect those changes in order for the children in the US to be able to compete in a global job market.

Public schools, due to tax dollar funding, are more able to do this than private schools.



posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 01:25 PM
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I think it is important to view what people think of Public Schools

Especially those people in power:

"The Battle for Humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classrooms~ John J. Dunphy, The Humanist January 1983, Pg. 26

"Education is the most powerful ally of humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism." Charles F. Potter, Humanism: A New Religion

"As a matter of fact, religion (Creationsm) should be discriminated against... no advocate of such propoganda should be trusted to teach science classes or administer science programs anywhere or under any circumstances. Moreover if they ar doing so they should be dismissed."

As you have read their is a definate anger and a definate bias toward private school. They do not view Private schools as an education, infact they think private schools are a virus that must be dealt with. The Public Schools are viewed as education because they can control it, they have a say in it and what the Public schools are teaching fits with there model of life.

Public School Indoctrination

Yes, I said it Indoctrination.


Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.
SOURCE

Indoctrination. How? Well in Public Schools, the children are given one and only one view point. The view point of God is missing and the view point of Creation. In many schools Creation and God is not even mentioned. Students are NOT given any possibility of a different view point. This leads to closed mindedness- which leads to indoctrination.

How long has this been going on for? Quite awhile. Infact it is written that:

"Any child who believes in God is mentally ill" The Social Sciences HBJ, Paul Brandwein, 1970. Pg. 110

Brief History Of Religion In Public Schools

From the 1800's thru 1925 creation and religion were taught in Public Schools. Infact the children learned to read out of the bible. Bible stories were used to teach kids how to read.

Here in Louisiana, a law was passed in 1987 requiring that religion and evolution be taught equally. Balanced. Infact this is rarely brought up. Religion is not given an equal chance, infact it is given the opposite of equal, many teachers do not bring it up for fear of losing there jobs. How would they lose there jobs? The childrens parents may not like Religion being brought up and file a complaint. Those complaints seriously do damage and just add more fuel to indoctrinating children.

The National Center for Science Education stated that: "We are a non-profit, tax-exmept membership organization working to defend the teaching of evolution against sectarian attack. We are a nationally- recognized clearhouse for information and advice to keep evolution in the science books and religion (Creation) out." Nov. 1993. readio debate w/Eugenia Scott.

I think this man confronted the issue quite well:

"The exclusionism you (public schools) promote is painfully self-serving and smacks of elitism. Why are you afraid of confronting the supernatural creationism believed by the majority of persons in the US and perhaps worldwide." William B. Provine, Biology and Philosophy (1993): Page 124. Vol: 8

Sadly in many textbooks only evolution is taught and in no way shape or form is creation sceinece taught.

This is indoctrinating. 1 view for the kids in Public School.

I believe Hitler said it best:

"Let me control the textbooks and I will control the state."

and this quote:

"When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side,' I say calmly, 'Your child belongs to us already...What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing but this new community'."

That is very powerful. Hitler said that through this new government he was creating, that he did not care if the parents listened to him, because they would die, while the kids will be forever his. WHy? Because of Nazi Indoctrination.

Hitler also mentioned that:

"I regard Chritianity as the most fatal seductive lie that ever yet existed." Hitler hated religion and attemoted to destroy it and worse yet he was succeeding. He was using the schools in Germany to indoctrinate kids on the ARYAN race.

Hitler was smart at indoctrinating and that was scary to see one man control the school systems. Imagine if that eve were to happen here... Perhaps it already is beginning.
_________________________________________________

Lets work with the legality of issues.

How are Public School Textbooks selected in accordence with the law:

1) State Legislature adopts education standards.
2) Publishers create books to try and MEET the standards
3) Around 30 states have a state textbook selection committee that will selecet 5 books. (In some places though, the district chooses what books they want).
4) 1 or 2 books are selected
5) Books are ordered for next school year.

Now, what interesting is that only the books that are state approved are paid for by the State, however, the school can choose any book that they want, but if it is not state approved the state does not pay for it. Most Public schools cannot afford to pay for books on their own, they need the state to pay for it.

What is interesting is that many textbooks, not just science textbooks contain out of date information. While these books contain out of date information, (Example: Babies with gill slits, math is not updated, and other things).
_________________________________________________________

Now to Skeptic1's statments:



Sheltering us seemed to be the priority.


More like protecting you was the Private Schools priority. Growing up with the same people, not only makes life long friends, but bonds. In Public Schools kids drop in and drop out and there is no CONSISTENCY, which if their is no consistency, you do not know who these people are. And worse yet you do not know their history or their mind states. They can be anything and anyone. Especially in high school.




Times are changing, and the school system in this country needs to reflect those changes in order for the children in the US to be able to compete in a global job market.

Public schools, due to tax dollar funding, are more able to do this than private schools.


Private schools are keeping up and in some aspects are well ahead pf Public schools. For instance, indoctrination? Does not really exist in Private Schools after all Science and Religion are both taught in Private Schools, which allows for open mindedness. The child is not restricted, the child is opened up to the world.

Public schools may have the tax money flowing, but they do not have the alumini's love for there school, nor do they have the schools spirit. Private schools open the door to much more than life, they open the door to great jobs and offer more aspects to the students life, such as alternatives, ART or Foriegn Language studies. Private schools offer much more than Public schools could ever give.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 10:55 AM
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I will make one short statement to address my opponent's rambling about indoctrination, religion, creationism, God, and public schools.

Public schools are run according to governmental standards and are funded through tax payer dollars. There is a separation of church and state in this country; it is not a law but it is followed like a law. Children can go to church to be educated in religion. Public schools are for educating children in math, English, science, history, literature, etc.

This debate is not about the lack of God's presence in the public school system.

 



More like protecting you was the Private Schools priority.


Protecting me shouldn't have been their priority. Educating me and preparing me college should have been their priority.


Private schools are keeping up and in some aspects are well ahead pf Public schools.


Private schools depend on the kindness of the parents who send their children there. In tough economic times, parents may not be able to spend thousands of dollars a year to send their kids to private schools. Public schools always have funds flowing in to them year after year. They never have to worry about where their funding comes from.

That fact alone makes them more stable and makes them more able to keep up with society's technological advances.

 


So, what exactly are the pros of public schools vs private schools??

1. Cost: Public schools are free; as long as your child lives in the area the school district serves attendance is free

We are in tough economic times right now. People are trying to save money in every way that they can. Public schools do not charge to educate children. Any and all are admitted and educated as long as they live within the school district.

2. The school is over seen by the state: Each state decides what the curriculum the school district should follow and they also decide what benchmarks a child has to accomplish in order to move on to the next grade. Having a set curriculum can be great because you know your child is going to learn certain things

Parents can check with their state board of education and get information on what is taught in the schools. Private schools can teach what ever they want, however they want. Public schools are held to strict standards that private schools are not. Parents can be sure that their children will learn the facts and figures in public school, whereas they may learn opinion and rhetoric in private schools (I know I experienced some of that).

3. All the teachers teaching need to have a degree and be certified by the state: They all receive a minimum 4 year degree and have passed a state test

Public school teachers are state certified; private school teachers don't have to be. Teachers are some of the best people on the planet, and it takes a special type of person to make a good teacher. Just because someone has a four year degree in Biology does not mean they will make a good biology teacher for high school students.

4. There are no entrance exams to go to attend a public school: Your child may have to take a placement test to see what grade level they are at but it doesn't determine whether they attend or not

Public schools are bound by law to admit and educate all children. They cannot use tests to discriminate like private schools can.

5. Diversity: Children are exposed to all facets of society in the public school system and this better prepares them for real life after their schooling

This is one of the big things I missed out on. I was taught by people that thought alike and looked alike. I went through years of schooling with a small group of people that looked like me. I was never exposed to "reality" in private school.

6. More choice in curriculum, builds community relationships for both parent and student, access to sports programs, and access to arts and music programs

Public schools offer more because they have stable funding coming in. Private schools cannot compete in that area.

 


Private schools have their bad points, too.

* Cost
* Teachers are not required to have a teaching degree, just knowledge of the subject they will be teaching
* Less diverse choices in subjects
* No special education classes available
* Students must pass an entrance exam to be admitted
* Most private schools are religious based schools

They may be the first choice for well to do families, religious families, "alumni" families, but not for middle class families. The cons of private schools can often outweigh the pros.

 


Parents are becoming more and more concerned when it comes to the decision of where to send their children to school. This is good, because it means that parents are paying more attention to their kids and what they are learning. The needs of the child must always come first, but in this day and age, unless the private school is the closest school and public school is too far away, public schools have much more going for them all around.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 04:23 PM
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I will comment on Skeptic1's statements:



This debate is not about the lack of God's presence in the public school system.


Perhaps it is. Not offering an alternative view is not only wrong, but leads the children to closed mindness. Schools are supposed to open the mind of the children. Private schools offer two views: "science" and "religion" which allows the child to be open minded.
_____________________________________________________

So, what exactly are the pros of private schools vs public schools??

Costs: Private schools not only offer financial aid, grants and scholorships. But often work with individual parents to help them and meet the costs. As they say you pay for what you get and the same applies to education. If it free chances are its not as good.

The School is over seen by the Archdiocese. The Archdiocese work along side with what the state would like to see the children learn. The Private schools adhere to this and follow the same educational path, but they often have better systems for children to learn.

Skeptic1 states that:



Public school teachers are state certified


Now state certified means haveing: An education degree. Not a certified subject matter degree. For instance if you have a teaching degree you can get state certified to teach whatever you want. But to be a certified Biology teacher you need to have a Biology degree. Public schools hire many Educational Degree teachers, whereas Private schools hire subject matter degree teachers, who know their subject quite well.

Are their really no entrance exams for Public Schools? Down here in New Orleans a LEAP test must be taken if you are going to a Public High School and a PLAN test must be taken for elementary school students to see if they are "gifted" or not. Public schools are not free of exams.

Diversity: Private schools are diversed as well. Sometimes they will only allow a certain gender to come in, but they must have an opposite gender school in the district to make up for that. Private schools are like that to keep boys and girls minds from haveing to be focused on eachother. If you want an education get your school work done before messin around with a guy or a lady.

More choice in curriculum, builds community relationships for both parent and student, access to sports programs, and access to arts and music programs. Same things goes with Private Schools. I believe Private schools promote Service Community Hours, that is true volunteer work and true community builders.

Bad Public Schools.. Bad Bad Bad:

* Cost- you pay for what you get! And they are free, so I will let you figure that one out.
* Teachers are not required to have a subject matter degree, just knowledge of the subject they will be teaching. Knowledge and actually knowing are two different things. The Public Schools lack this quality.
* Less diverse choices in subjects an dboy is that true.
* No special education classes available, Private schools allow for Dyslexia classes, tutoring and other neccessites for students.
* Students must pass an entrance exam to be admitted (well for Louisiana kids at least).
* Public schools do not allow for a global view. Only 1 View.



Parents are becoming more and more concerned when it comes to the decision of where to send their children to school. This is good, because it means that parents are paying more attention to their kids and what they are learning. The needs of the child must always come first, but in this day and age, unless the private school is the closest school and public school is too far away, public schools have much more going for them all around.


Really. Lets go back and view what you stated earlier Skeptic1:



Protecting me shouldn't have been their priority.


Hmmm. So Protection is not important? Public schools have much more going for them... No No No.

Its a question of Safety

Here are examples of what they were protecting you from:

1) Columbine High School
2) Olean High School
3) Parkway South Junior High School
4) Lindhurst High School
5) Pearl High

And Many Many Other Public High Schooland Elementary School Shootings and Killing. This is not including stabbings or bombs. This is what they were protecting you from. Lets take the Columbine Incident for example:

Dylan Harris and Eric Klebold, both attended Columbine (Public) High School. And this is what they did in there anger and rage toward the school:

1. Rachel Scott, age 17, killed by shots to the head, torso, and leg on a grassy area next to the West Entrance of the school.
2. Richard Castaldo, age 17, shot in the arm, chest, back and abdomen on the same grassy area.
3. Daniel Rohrbough, age 15, killed by a shot to the chest on the West Staircase.
4. Sean Graves, age 15, shot in the back, foot and abdomen on the West Staircase.
5. Lance Kirklin, age 16, shot with wounds to the leg, neck and jaw on the West Staircase.
6. Michael Johnson, age 15, escaped from the grassy knoll with wounds to his face, arm and leg.
7. Mark Taylor, age 16, shot in the chest, arms and leg on the grassy knoll.
8. Anne-Marie Hochhalter, age 17, shot in the chest, arm, abdomen, back, and left leg near the cafeteria's entrance.
9. Brian Anderson, age 16, injured near the West Entrance by flying glass.
10. Patti Nielson, age 35, hit in the shoulder by shrapnel near the West Entrance.
11. Stephanie Munson, age 16, shot in the ankle inside the North Hallway.
12. Dave Sanders, age 47, died of blood loss after being shot in the neck and back inside the South Hallway.
13. Evan Todd, age 15, sustained minor injuries from the splintering of a desk he was hiding under.
14. Kyle Velasquez, age 16, killed by gunshot wounds to the head and back.
15. Patrick Ireland, age 17, shot in the arm, leg, head, and foot.
16. Daniel Steepleton, age, 17, shot in the thigh.
17. Makai Hall, 18, shot in the knee.
18. Steven Curnow, age 14, killed by a shot to the neck.
19. Kacey Ruegsegger, age 17, shot in the hand, arm and shoulder.
20. Cassie Bernall, age 17, killed by a shot to the head.
21. Isaiah Shoels, age 18, killed by a shot to the chest.
22. Matthew Kechter, age 16, killed by a shot to the chest.
23. Lisa Kreutz, age 18, shot in the shoulder, hand and arms and thigh.
24. Valeen Schnurr, age 18, injured with wounds to the chest, arms and abdomen.
25. Mark Kintgen, age 17, shot in the head and shoulder.
26. Lauren Townsend, age 18, killed by multiple gunshot wounds to the head, chest and lower body.
27. Nicole Nowlen, age 16, shot in the abdomen.
28. John Tomlin, age 16, killed by multiple shots to the head and neck.
29. Kelly Fleming, age 16, killed by a shot to the back.
30. Jeanna Park, age 18, shot in the knee, shoulder and foot.
31. Daniel Mauser, age 15, killed by a shot to the face.
32. Jennifer Doyle, age 17, shot in the hand, leg and shoulder.
33. Austin Eubanks, age 17, shot in the head and knee.
34. Corey DePooter, age 17, killed by shots to the chest and neck.

Not to mention the two killers (students) themselves:

35. Eric Harris, age 18, committed suicide by a single shot in the mouth.
36. Dylan Klebold, age 17, committed suicide by a single shot to the head.


In their anger and rage, they killed and injuried. They did not care. This was planned out and executed. This is not safe.

Is this is the diversity and the real world prepardness they you were talking about? A diverse group of kids? Keep them diverse! If this happens and you do not go to school with the kids that you knew or know then it opens the door to all sorts of characters. Kids do not see it coming because they do not know them or do not know them. Many people are ticking time bombs, keep them diverse and NO ONE will see what terror is coming.

Not to mention this:


as 558 Midwestern middle school children revealed that 80% of young teen behavior included “physical aggression, social ridicule, teasing, name-calling and issuing threats within the previous 30 days.”
LINK

80% that number is startling! 80%, one can logically conduct that the other 20% are the bullies. Now that is serious. No discipline in Public Schools. Private Schools have strong disciplinary actions and are not afraid to DISMISS students on their beavior.

Go to a Public school the first thing you will see is a big yellow and red sign that says a NO gun zone and no Druge zone. Once you enter the school, armed guards- 1 sitting in the front and one behind a desk. Go a little further and you have Metal detectors. A little further and you have bag checks and even body searches. A little after that Camera's line the hallways and are in some classrooms. Panic buttons next to each door of the exits and 2 in the middle of the hallway. This is not the Public Schools that are SAFE these schools are DANGEROUS and are a harbor for kids who have unresolved issues and unstable parents.Unstable minds and that is in no way SAFE or a GOOD quality. I am quite comfortable saying. I am glad I went to Private Schools, because these Public schools are not safe in anyway shape or form. Sure they have Big Brother watching, but that is not going to doany good, if a group or a student wants to kill somebody or just go on a rampage, they will find a way. No matter what, if someone wants to kill they will KILL.

Public Schools are a Massacre Haven.

Who has the highest suicide school rate? Public Schools. Why? No Discipline, no steady hand no guideness. Its a death waiting to happen.

Private Schools offer counsiling and not only that but they handle Bullies. They are not afraid tohandle them in anyway and will dismiss a bully without question.

Depresion rates? Public Schools.

Massacres? Public Schools.
.
Its not good and Not safe...



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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I will make a brief statement on my opponent's rambling about safety in public schools.

Tragedy can occur anywhere. Anyone can pick up a gun and take it to any public place and shoot multiple people. It is not a problem specific to the public school system.

This debate is not about the instances of mass killings of children by children.



So Protection is not important?


This is not the type of protection I was talking about. The protection I was referring to involved protection from the reality outside the social bubble of the private school I attended.

Safety of the children should come first in any and all schools. Protection from people that look different and/or sound different isn't protection; it is discrimination.

 




Not offering an alternative view is not only wrong, but leads the children to closed mindness. Schools are supposed to open the mind of the children. Private schools offer two views: "science" and "religion" which allows the child to be open minded.


I went to private school and I was never taught religion. I was never taught creationism. I was taught science, like I should have been. If parents want their children educated in religion they can send them to religious schools or take them to church.

This debate is not about religion or the lack thereof in the public school system.

 




Public schools are not free of exams.


Never said they were. They are free of admission exams which can be used to discriminate against people they don't want to let into their schools. Public schools have to admit and educate everyone.

Private schools can discriminate to their heart's content and entrance exams are one way that they can keep the "undesirables" out of their schools.

 


So far in this debate, I have laid out the fundamentals of the public schools, the pros of the public school system, my experience in the private school system, areas where the public school system appears to be better than private schools, and ways to improve upon some of the perceived problems in the public school system.

So, which school better prepares children for college and top notch universities? In the Washington DC area, where there are some questionable public schools and some incredible private schools:


"There is no significant difference in rankings of colleges where students were admitted based on public versus private high school attendance," Jewler concludes.
Source

After going through all of this, I am beginning to believe that the major difference between public and private schools are "cosmetic".

I mean, prestige matters to some people and being able to send their children to private schools makes them look better to their peers. There might not be that much difference in the education their kids receive, but the parents look good to their friends.

 




* No special education classes available, Private schools allow for Dyslexia classes, tutoring and other neccessites for students.


Where are you getting this information from?


Because public schools have a responsibility to teach all students, public schools often have in place special programs for children with special needs (whether it is academically or mentally). Private schools, while they may have special programs for gifted students, will rarely have programs for children with special needs unless that is what the private school specializes in. There are also other kinds of special programs, for example, ones that specialize in the arts. Military, boarding, and single-sex programs are usually only found in a private setting.
Source

The private school I went to had no disabled students. None. They were not admitted. And, that will be the case with most private schools unless the private school is devoted to children with disabilities.

Public schools must admit and educate everyone. That being the case, they have many classes for disabled children and for gifted children. Public schools cannot discriminate.

 


There is nothing inherently wrong with the public school system in this country. It all comes down to what parents feel is best for their children and their particular situation. Public schools have more to offer because they receive a stable stream of funds year after year and have to adhere to strict standards for teachers and curriculum.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 05:08 PM
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Lets look at Skeptic1's statements:



There is nothing inherently wrong with the public school system in this country. It all comes down to what parents feel is best for their children and their particular situation. Public schools have more to offer because they receive a stable stream of funds year after year and have to adhere to strict standards for teachers and curriculum.


Their is something inherntly wrong with Public Schools, its pretty simple to figure out. Who owns public schools? The Government. Hence Public schools are in reality Government School. Now whats bad about this? The government cannot be held accountable to parents. The people who work their, teachers, principals, deans, anybody are Government employed, which means that they are paid directly by the state. The parents have no control over them, because they are government employees. But Private Schools administrators and staff are funded by the parents. That gives the Parents a SAY in what the school does.

Now do not get me wrong their are some amazing Public school teachers, but most of them with just their education degree are nothing more than below average teachers, funded by the state. Private School teachers with their SUBJECT degrees are paid by the Parents and that gives the parents a lot of power, MUCH more power than what the Public Schools give.

What the Public Schools are doing and what they continue to do, they are held to NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

Review:

1) Public school Administrators, teachers and faculty have the right to IGNORE parents, because they are not EMPLOYED by the Parents.
2) Customer Satisfaction is not a Priority.
3) No Accountability....

Politics

As stated above, with the quotes from the Humainsts and other people in power. Those people view Public Schools as a tool in their Political gain. As we all know Public School teachers and administrators do not need to listen to parents and can do as they wish, but Public School must listen to Politicians and School Board Authorities. Why must they listen? To get funding, to get raises, to get more advertizing, and the up to date things. Public School teachers and Administrators are frequently forced to deal with supposedly Cutting Edge education plans organized and created by state judiciaries, legislatures, and bureaucracies. But who is going to pay for such ideas? The Taxpayers! Yes, you pay to get all these plans set into action. This is the only reason that I seeis benefcial for the "law" of seperation of church and state. Private Schools are able to shut out the Politicans and Powers that be and the Private Schools give the power to the Parents, this is how True Accountability and true education come about.

Private Schools are overall better in Quality than Public Schools.. Why?

Well unlike Public schools, Private Schools must retain good educational standards. Why? Because if the parents do not like the way their kids are getting taught or learning then they can pull them out of the Private School the next year or that year. That means that funding (tution) is lost and that is not good, for the faculty or the administration this simple thing propels private schools to structure themselves so they can deliver a better product. Unlike Public Schools, who continue to recieve funding no matter what.

Tecaher struggles

Private schools, authorities like boards and supervisors have less power. In the public schools, the school boards and supervisors try to play god in the schools that they manage-- leaving principals and teachers frustrated. Why? Because Private Schools, allow their faculty to do as they must and to teach and earn what they. Also since Private School are directly funded by the Parents the teachers have to Teach their best and they can also bring about complaints and issues. Unlike Public Schools, because they are governmet ran and government owned. The government does not have to listen to one of its employees and this makes it difficult to do much as a teacher or administrator.

What does this lead to? If multiple complaints come in about a teacherin the Private Schools, the Private School can fire that teacher on the spot, because they are employees to the Parents. However, in a Public School this proces is not only long and drawn out, but it may as well be forgotten altogether. Why? Because even though they have been released, since it was a government job, they can get the same position at another Governmennt School.

The Principal

The highest authority on a school campus. The Private School principals have a more of a teaching background than their Public School counterparts. Private School Principals are more worried about the educational standards of their students and teachers, but the same cannot be said about Public Schools, where the Principal is worried about being the head administrator. Why? Because the Public School Principals are more worried about being the head in a govenrment school. Anyone can become principal in a Public School.

Education in Public Highschools


According to a new Manhattan Institute for Policy Research study funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, only 32 percent of recent high school graduates were qualified to attend a four-year college. In addition, the report showed that the high school graduation rate remains depressingly low at only 70 percent.


That is awfully low for Public Schools. It appears that they are not as great as Skeptic1 believes they are.


According to the most recent academic comparison study by the Program for International Student Assessment, of students in 32 developed countries, 14 countries score higher than the U.S. in reading, 13 have better results in science, and 17 score above America in mathematics.
SOURCE

We are on the Bottom of the chain. Our Public School system is said and we are supposed to be the role model country. Our Public School assesment level is sad compared to the rest of the world.


But for just about a third of all high school students in this country, summer brings no respite from the failure of our public education system. Those students have already dropped out of high school, and they have left behind nearly all hope of furthering their education and assuring individual prosperity.


People recognize that Public Schools are not great, good, or ok for education. They are awful for education, but perfect for indoctrination as stated above. Indoctrinating the Public School system is easy, after all Government officals decide what goes into the books.

How many kids have failed in Public School?


The failure is not theirs alone, and we all bear responsibility for failing an entire generation of students in our public school system.


A what? An entire generation! That is way toomany kids to fail in the Publi School classroom. Could it be because of closemindedness? Making the kids become robots in the Public School system?

The Following is taken straight from the Department of Education handbook:

The U.S. Department of Education had this to say about the academic performance of private schools:

Private school students generally perform higher than their public school counterparts on standardized achievement tests.
Private high schools typically have more demanding graduation requirements than do public high schools.
Private school graduates are more likely than their peers from public schools to have completed advanced-level courses in three academic subject areas (see table).
Private school students are more likely than public school students to complete a bachelor's or advanced degree by their mid-20s (see table).

The following Charts are self explanitory:




In an article in: State of our Nations youth, which is basically a report card of both Public and Private Schools. But this Report Card is straight from the student body:

The Following Questions were asked:

Do I Always feel safe in my school? Public Schools students said: 36%, whereas Private Schools stated: 64%
Teachers and administrators have taken all necessary steps for my safety and security Public: 41% whereas Private: 57%

This link: Schools

Stated the following:

Percentage of teachers in 1999-00 who reported that a student...
threatened them with injury Public: 10 Private: 4
physically attacked them Public:4 Private: 2
Percentage of students, age 12-18, who in 2001 reported...
having experienced violent victimization at school Public: 1.9 Private: 1.0
being bullied at school Public: 8.0 Private: 7.3
fearing being attacked or harmed at school Public: 6.6 Private: 4.6
being targets of hate-related words at school Public: 12.7 Private: 8.2
that they avoided certain places in school for fear of their own safety Public: 4.9 Private: 2.0
that street gangs were present in school Public: 21.6 and Private: 4.9

At this LINK:
Percentage of teachers who perceive certain issues as serious problems in their schools
student disrespect for teachers: Public: 17 Private: 4
use of alcohol Public: 7 Private: 3
drug abuse Public: 6 Private: 2
student tardiness Public: 10 Private: 3
student absenteeism Public: 14 Private: 3
students unprepared to learn Public: 30 Private: 5
lack of parent involvement Public: 24 Private: 3
student apathy Public: 21 Private: 4

Private

Public :d:



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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Their is something inherntly wrong with Public Schools, its pretty simple to figure out. Who owns public schools? The Government. Hence Public schools are in reality Government School.


The taxpayers own public schools. Hence, they are responsible for making sure that the school systems work the way they should. Parents need to work within the PTA, attend School Board meetings, attend Department of Education meetings in their areas, and make their voices heard.

In truth, the state, the school, the teachers, and the district School Boards are responsible for setting the curriculum for the public school system. Parents have ample opportunity to make their voices heard to these entities, and these entities are responsive to the concerns of the parents.


What the Public Schools are doing and what they continue to do, they are held to NO ACCOUNTABILITY.


There is plenty of accountability, and it starts with the parents. If the parents are not involved, how is that the problem of the school system?

 


What are the major differences between public and private schools?

* Cost
* Class Size
* Teacher certification
* Strict state-defined rules
* Diversity in subjects available to students
* Entrance exams to determine admittance

I have shown throughout this debate that public schools offer more diversity than private schools. Public schools have certified teachers where private schools do not have to. Public schools are free for all, and have to admit and educate everyone. Public schools cannot discriminate like private schools can. And, public schools have to follow strict guidelines put in place by the state.

Private schools are pretty much free to do what they want, when they want, and don't have to do other things that public schools do (like admit and educate special needs children).

 


I have shown that public school students go to the same big name schools as their private school counterparts. I have shown that public school students score higher on some standardized tests than their private school counterparts. I have shown that students with the same socio-economic backgrounds do just as well in life if they went to a public school or a private school.

So, that makes me wonder if one is actually better than the other or if one makes parents and children feel better than the other?

A private school education has prestige attached to it. Anyone can go to public school. So, with all of these areas where both public and private schools are the same, are the only differences "cosmetic" or ones attached to "social standing"?

I am beginning to think so.

 


This debate was not about public school safety.
This debate was not about indoctrination in public schools.
This debate was not about God and the lack of his presence in the public school system.

This debate is about determining which education is better: public school or private school?

I've shown that public schools have some advantages over the private schools, and in my mind, the biggest one is diversity. Public schools educate children and also give them a glimpse into the diverse society they will grow up in and live in and work in. That glimpse, along with the education they receive, leads to more well-rounded people than the societal bubble of private schools where everyone looks and sounds alike.

....many thanks to Semper for setting this debate up, to TheMythLives for a great debate, and I hope the readers and judges enjoyed this as much as I did....



posted on Apr, 15 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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Let examine what Skeptic1 stated:



The taxpayers own public schools.


Nope thsi is not true. The taxpayers only pay to fund it, but then again we fund everything.


The so-called "public” school system does not belong to the public; it is owned and run by the government.
SOURCE

This statement says it all. Public Schools are government schools.



In truth, the state, the school, the teachers, and the district School Boards are responsible for setting the curriculum for the public school system. Parents have ample opportunity to make their voices heard to these entities, and these entities are responsive to the concerns of the parents.


Yes the parents can make themselves heard but the government does not have to listen to them. After all the government runs it and the parents do not fund it.



There is plenty of accountability, and it starts with the parents. If the parents are not involved, how is that the problem of the school system?


Actually their is no Accountability and blaming the parents is like blaming a spoon for Rosie O'Donnel being large.




This debate was not about public school safety.
This debate was not about indoctrination in public schools.
This debate was not about God and the lack of his presence in the public school system.


This debate is about Public vs. Private schools all those factors are included and are important to this debate.

Safety in the Public schools are awful. School shootings every year happen in Public schools, more than any other education system out their. Indoctrination can be done easily and effectively, all because the government runs it and decides what they would prefer in the school system. And God is as important because he/she is not stated as a factor and that is indoctrination. I do not want them to teach religion just say that God is a possibility.

Private Schools are the window to the future and lead to bigger and better things. Public schools cannot stand up to Private School education and standards and this has been shown through out the course of this debate.


Students do better in private schools, according to common wisdom – and some well-regarded data now more than two decades old.
SOURCE

Private Schools=

Public Schools=


The winner is obvious.
_________________________________________________

Much thanks to Semper for setting this debate up and Much thanks to Skeptic1 for such an interesting debate. Hopefully the Judges and Readers enjoy this as well.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 05:55 AM
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Now Off To The Judges!!!!

Semper



posted on May, 22 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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We have a winner!!!!!


This was a most difficult debate to judge.

I have to give it to TheMythLives, but just barely.

It seemed that TheMythLives had a handle on the pros and cons of the subject just slightly better than skeptic1. It was so close I had a difficult time deciding who won this debate.

Using the Columbine massacre was a brilliant tactic for TheMythLives's argument and in the end sceptic1 could not mount an adequate defense for it.

Skeptic used the qualification tactic beautifully but in the end could not compete with the security aspect of the debate.

This was most difficult to judge but in my opinion TheMythLives squeezed out a win here.



WOW!!! This debate was a blast to read! Talk about keeping me on the edge of my seat all the way through!! This one did it!

I would just like to say how pleased I was to read this debate, and that I'm really looking forward to more. Anyway, here's the ruling.
________________________________________

skeptic1:

Intro:
Good job on the introduction! You make several good points about public schools, and do indeed begin to illustrate how they are better than private schools. (+1)

Reply 1:
You state that teachers don’t have to be state certified to work at a private school. A reference here would have helped greatly to aid you. A word of advice here, if I may. Always, and I mean ALWAYS use references if/whenever you can. It will help you to establish your argument that much faster.

Very well stated post here!!! This post refutes some of your opponent’s arguments, as well as goes that extra mile to build up your own. VERY well done!! Also, good use of sources, besides the missing one mentioned above. (+1)

Reply 2:
You make some pretty good points in this post, which help to substantiate your argument. Again though, some sourcing would have helped to establish this a bit more firmly. (0)

Reply 3:
Good use of sources here. You engaged your opponent’s argument head on, and started refuting points left and right. You also brought the focus of this debate back onto the topic! Well done!! (+1)

Closing:
Fantastic closing! You wrapped up your argument by reflecting on what your objectives were, and went about pointing out what you had accomplished throughout the debate. Well done!! (+1)

TOTAL: +4
________________________________________

TheMythLives:

Intro:
Well done for an intro!! You’ve made one heck of a case for the private school system, and I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how this argument progresses. (+1)

Reply 1:
You state that public schools “indoctrinate” their students by not teaching all sides of an argument, yet you state that private schools don’t do this, as they teach both sides equally. Isn’t it possible though that they lean towards one side more than the other, and by that train of thought, they are involved in the very same activity? Just a thought. Good post though. Develops your argument a bit more. (+1)

Reply 2:
To be fair, the comment that you made about how if it doesn’t cost anything, that it’s somehow inferior, in relation to the public school system, I find to be a little misinformed. Public education isn’t just botched together to “just get by”. They put a great deal of thought into the curriculum for these students, as they are genuinely interested in their welfare. This comment just seemed like an attempt to discredit the public school system with speculative information. A reference would have been helpful.

Good point about how public schools aren’t devoid of entrance/proficiency exams.

After your list of all of the victims of the Columbine massacre, you mention the following:


Many people are ticking time bombs, keep them diverse and NO ONE will see what terror is coming.



Are you now suggesting that we segregate our children from one another to prevent this from happening again? Personally, I think that better parenting would have gone a long way to stopping this behavior, but that’s a debate all its own. The point here is that this point doesn’t seem to help you any, as there is no reason why an event very similar couldn’t happen at any private institution, God Forbid that ever happen. I understand the safety concept, but I’m not sure about the motive behind this particular point being made.

After sourcing a site that talks about how 80% of students polled talk about how aggression is permeating the group, you state that this doesn’t happen in private schools, yet fail to provide a source to back up your statement. Where’s the proof to back up the claim? (-1)

Reply 3:
Under your politics heading, you say that public schools continue to get funding whether there are students there or not. While this is true, if enough students leave, the state can no longer keep all of the teachers on the payroll, and will have to lay some off. If enough are laid off, then the school may shut down. So, pulling kids out of public schools is just as beneficial as it would be in a private school. True, it may not net the same impact immediately, but over time, it’ll be noticed, as other parents do the same.

And as for them being able to just go to another school; that’s not insured, as they may not have a school in the area that has an available spot to fill. It’s not like if a teacher in a public school gets fired from one place, that they immediately have another place to go to. It just doesn’t work that way.

GREAT reference to the school stats!! (+1)

Closing:
Good rebuttal on the school ownership point!!

Indoctrination can happen in BOTH schools. One is no more or less susceptible to it than the other. (+1)

TOTAL: +3
________________________________________


You guys both did a heck of a job on this, and should BOTH be commended for a job well done!!!! If there was any one thing that I could say that you needed to improve upon it would be to focus on source material. It's extremely important to the argument!

CONGRATS skeptic1 on a hard-won victory!



Challenge Match: skeptic1 vs TheMythLives: "Public or Private? You're Being Schooled"

Both opponents started off in an excellent manner. Both presented their case well and gave us an idea where they were going in the debate. Classic…

Skeptic’s initial mix of “real life” experience and statistical data gave an early lead and really started off running.

However when TheMythLives brought in the conspiracy angle

Especially those people in power
and

Public School Indoctrination
, in true ATS style, he countered skeptic’s post quite nicely.

From that point on it went kind of down hill for skeptic1.

TheMythLives brought into play the aspect of safety in the public school system and took control of the debate. Skeptic1 never fully recovered from this and was playing “catch up” and defending the entire rest of the debate.

I give the win quite easily to ‘TheMythLives”


Congratulations to TheMythLives

Semper



posted on May, 27 2009 @ 10:00 AM
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Thank You all judges it was a dman good debate and hopefully, another one soon will commense. Skeptic1 is a dman good debater and I feel that I barely squeezed out a win. Thank you judges, reaers, OP and Skeptic1 for an awesome debate.





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