A Happy Easter Exposé

reply to post by Supercertari

As I pointed out much earlier in this thread, in a post you seem to have accidentally ignored, similiarities in stories doesn't trouble me at all, neither do I think they are demonic to confuse the faithful, yadda, yadda, yadda. They demonstrate the inherent reason of humanity made in God's image which seeks Him by reason in the world and its events and approaches a certain knowledge of Him before/without revelation.

Yes well... i'm sure your intentions were good. I didn't deliberately ignored the post to be rude, i just don't understand bible derived/inspired rhetoric... it's mostly nonsensical babble to me... open for whatever loose association you want to project through it.

Osiris did not "when he died he rose from the grave and went to heaven", he became king in the land of the dead.

There are all sorts of minor distinctions one can go out of their way to make/claim that these stories have nothing to do with one another, but by means of occam's razor (less is more) and a little common sense one can clearly see that it's basically another way of saying the same thing.


[edit on 22-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
Yes well... i'm sure your intentions were good. I didn't deliberately ignored the post to be rude, i just don't understand bible derived/inspired rhetoric... it's mostly nonsensical babble to me... open for whatever loose association you want to project through it.

The projection in this instance is all yours my friend if you refer to that first post of mine and subsequent ones you might note I was speaking of reason not revelation (biblical or otherwise).

There are all sorts of minor distinctions one can go out of their way to make/claim that these stories have nothing to do with one another, but by means of occam's razor (less is more) and a little common sense one can clearly see that it's basically another way of saying the same thing.

Well, lets make sure occam's razor is sufficiently sharpened under the Great Pyramid.
Flood stories - The More Option: In the manner of story telling of the ancients a story was invented somewhere which was told and retold among disperate, sometimes isolated, cultures and languages.
Flood stories - The Less Option: There was a flood.

Divine Resurrection Stories - The More Option: A cabal of palestinian fishermen conspire to enslave the world and construct a story about a person called Jesus by amalgamating elements from a plethora of stories from other and alien cultures and languages.
Divine Resurrection Stories - The Less Option: There was a God-Man called Jesus whose life, death and resurrection affirmed what reason had so far abstracted of the Creator from creation.

The Franciscan, William of Ockham, does indeed recommend the "less" hypotheses.

Originally posted by Supercertari
Eggs were often painted, particularly red denoting Christ's passion, and blessed on Holy Saturday to distinguish them from other eggs. The famous Fabergé eggs were a regal adaptation of this tradition.

That's interesting, I hadn't really looked at the history of Fabergé eggs, but will now.

Originally posted by Supercertari
Divine Resurrection Stories - The More Option: A cabal of palestinian fishermen conspire to enslave the world and construct a story about a person called Jesus by amalgamating elements from a plethora of stories from other and alien cultures and languages.

Upon this hypothesis, the fishermen clearly missed their objective as they were the first to be tortured and killed. You'd think they would've gone a more peaceful and influencial route than defying government authorities and conducting missions to lands where they were most hated.

reply to post by Supercertari

Many are familiar with Occam's Razor, which states that, all things being equal, one should not seek complex explanations when more simple ones are available. No one disputes that these other stories predate the Judeo-Christian Bible, so we really only have two options:

1. The religious explanation is that while the other stories were very much the same as those in the Bible, they are all false. But when they occur in the Bible (despite it being much the same content), this time the stories are true. One explanation of the resemblances to the earlier myths is that Satan created them to lead people astray from the true Messiah that would come much later. So essentially, an ultra-powerful and evil being (Created by God) influenced humanity to create deceptive stories -- thousands of years before the real version -- so that people wouldn't believe the real thing when they saw it.

2. The alternative explanation is that the nature of storytelling during the period was such that central themes propagated through time. This combined with the natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories, and the fact that the Bible stories came after the other ones, explains the similarities to previous myths. And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) -- they are also false in the Bible. In short, the Bible is simply another iteration of the same themes that came long before it.

Which of these two explanations makes more sense to you?

ok ... so to answer the question set forth... you picked 1 and i picked 2

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
reply to post by Supercertari

 

ok ... so to answer the question set forth... you picked 1 and i picked 2

Absolutely not which will be clear to any readers. I do not consider them to be very much the same, I note there are similarities. I do not say merely that they are "false" I say that human reason abstracted from creation some understanding of the nature of the Creator and His relationship with humanity. This has no suggestion that the stories were invented by satan to deceive people. There is no version of option 1 with which I am in agreement.

If you do wish to pick option 2 there are two clauses in your choice which require elaboration. From where does this "natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories" come?
And, of course, how do you overcome the undistributed middle of "And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) -- they are also false in the Bible." And of course not everyone agrees in the first place.

When you've finished adding these "mores" to blunt your razor claim don't forget to add why these Palestinian fishermen invented the story of Jesus so 2,000 years later children would buy chocolate eggs.

reply to post by Supercertari

"natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories"

Born and evolved out of a basic human need... to feel a sense of security/certainty and purpose in life.

"And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) -- they are also false in the Bible."

I see no discrepancies in this statement. A very logical sequence that leads to a very logical conclusion.

As for occam's razor... it's very simple... the bible is made up ... just like all the other stories that proceeded it.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
Born and evolved out of a basic human need... to feel a sense of security/certainty and purpose in life.

Why would live's need a purpose? Why would evolution develop purposes other than passing on genes?
The flood stories gave people a sense of security and certainty? I thought one of your oft repeated claims about religion was how it threatens people with hell?
"A basic human need", coming from where?

"And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) -- they are also false in the Bible."

I see no discrepancies in this statement. A very logical sequence that leads to a very logical conclusion.

Not at all, study logic a bit better. Because a,b,d,e,f,g.... are false does not make c false. This isn't even the fallacy of undistributed middle, there's not even a middle anywhere to distribute or otherwise. By your logical sequence Galileo was wrong because Aristotle and Ptolemy were.

reply to post by Supercertari


It's very simple really, the brain has evolved to the point where we have the ability to question everything and as a result we have to wrestle with the meaning of everything. Since life is full of nonsensical destruction and pain we struggle with the meaning of life... to cope we create stories to make ourselves feel better... as well our brains evolved with the ability to create language, tools and weapons which required rules/laws to insure our survival as a growing community. The holy texts of the world serve these two basic needs to insure our survival... these reference guides evolved as we evolved. The NIV is only a cosmetic improvement, still just as backwards as it's predecessors. Our current guides are secular humanitarian rules/laws, science and secular academia and spiritual-psychology.

As for your example in logic;
you are selectively picking and nitpicking in a vain effort to support the idea/falacy that the bible story is unique/special. By doing so you ignore the fact that all of the other stories are similar/same in plot and cast of characters... which suggests that all of the stories including your favorite one all have the same origins... so therefore if one is claimed false, this puts all other stories that share similarities into question. Hypothetically speaking if lets say nine out of ten stories are claimed to be fictional works but all ten have common themes and similar content... one would have to conclude that the one story held up as truth is no more of a source of truth then the other nine.

As for your sense of logic;
according to your bible...
John Wayne Gacy is going to Heaven and Mohandas Gandhi is going to Hell.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by saint4God


Hi saint4God/
thanks for your comment!


Just a little more on the celebration of 'Pascha'
When we greet someone at this time, we say ''Christos Anesti'' (Christ is Risen)
And we get an answer back ''Alithos Anesti'' !.....(It is True, He is Risen)

The actual service of Pascha is quite long....
It is 50 days leading up to Pascha Sunday....prayers and psalms are read at this time...also the book og Revelation is read at this time..
On the saturday night through to 3am Sunday morning Church service is on and it ends with.....

"Christ is risen from the dead,
trampling down death by death,
and to those in the tombs, He bestows life!"
Following the entrance into the church, the Paschal canon ascribed to St. John of Damascus is chanted with the Paschal troparion as the constantly recurring refrain.
Matins ends with the Paschal stichera: "O day of resurrection!
Let us beam with God's own pride!
Let everyone embrace in joy!
Let us warmly greet those we meet and treat them all like brothers,
even those who hate us!
Let all the earth resound with this song: Christ is risen from the dead, conquering death by death, and on those in the grave bestowing life!"
Next, the Paschal Divine Liturgy begins with the singing once more of the festal troparion with the verses of Psalm 67 (68

helen

I urge all good Christians who oppose the commercialization of Easter to do as I am. Next Easter season I am going to nail a bunny to a cross on my front yard. It is the least that the Easter Bunny can do.

Edited to add that it will be a TOY bunny.

[edit on 4-26-2009 by groingrinder]

reply to post by groingrinder


Here's some inspiration for your provocative outdoor project

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/07dae782cb9c.jpg[/atsimg]


[edit on 26-4-2009 by The All Seeing I]