Look at this Iraqi deception

abcnews.go.com...

"Iraqi security agents have bugged every room and telephone of the U.N. weapons inspectors based in Baghdad"

Interesting.

Iraq accusesus of spying, everyone here vehemently denies we're spying, saying we're inspecting, then it turns out that we've bugged phone calls from Iraq officials surely an act of spying yet for some reason we're up in arms that it turns out they wanted to spy on us.

hypocracy
damned hypocracy
and politics.

Lupe - A normal person would think Iraq intimidating and spying on "UN Inspectors" is a violation of the rules of engagement. You on the otherhand feel it's ok that Iraq thumbs their nose at the UN Inspectors while claiming they are innocent of owning WMDs.

It's kinda like some drug dealer claiming to be innocent, but doing everything he can to stop the police from digging around in his house for drugs. Yeah, that's innocent behavior...

(rolling eyes)

I don't think this is a big surprize.I think the U.S . and the inspectors had too know Iraq was going to do something like this.Saddam has not stayed in power because he lets people run around doing what they want.

Thats why I don't understand what the big deal is.

we're spying on them, course they're going to spy on us.
chrissake we're planning a hostile takeover of his country, I think they're being massively compliant under the circumstances.

Lets also remember that This isn't Saddam Bugging the inspectors. Saddam is the president, he has organisations within his administration.

I'm pretty Sure Bush isn't fuklly aware of whom the FBI or CIA are bugging.

We should be carefull not to place the actions of a complex governmental system onto the head of one man.

Especially if that one man is currently percieved as the enemy and not the entire governmental system of Iraq.

Lupe, you're allways ready to stand up for Saddam.

Did you know that he was a mass murderer and a tyrant ?

MT69 US shouldn't have provide him with weapons and chemical agents in the first place, so it's all US fault anyway, they shouldn't have made those things in the first place.

Give your best friend a knife to stab your common enemy. But don't be mad when he stab someone else. You gave him the knife in the first place anyway !!!!!!! SO who's the bad guy here ? Yes you, because you gave him the knife, without it he can never use it against you.
Thats why I sometimes dislike what some of you warmongers (e.g. MT69) post here.
You ignore the fact that US is training terrorist and other axis of evil, but it doesn;t matter as long as they are on your side !

If you want to liberate the Iraqi people you don't start with a massive air strike campagne, you know you'll kill innocent peoples. But you don't care about Iraqi people, you only care for the money you can make with Iraqi oil.

"Lupe, you're allways ready to stand up for Saddam.
Did you know that he was a mass murderer and a tyrant ? "

I really don't see how thats relevant.

the point here is that we're spying on him, and thas fine but for some reason if he spys on us we're supposed to put our arms up in horror and talk about how evil he is.

Its like cheeting at cards and then being angry that the other players cheeting as well.

TigeriS, the USA are not responsible. Saddam IS responsible.

1) He didn't have to buy these weapons.

2) He didn't have to use these weapons.

Gun doesn't kill peoples.That's the peoples who are killing the peoples !

stupid argument.

If he's such an evil bastard why did we sell them to him.

like Mr Burns said.

"Me and schindler had a lot in common, we both made shells for the nazis but mine worked goddammit!"

Originally posted by Lupe_101
stupid argument.

If he's such an evil bastard why did we sell them to him.

I don't know Lupe. May be that we didn't know that he was a fuc$*ng bastard ?

But you know, the whole world was happy to sell weapons and guns to Irak. France, China, North-Korea, USSR....

Especially France and USSR. In 1983, French president Francois Mitterand ( a socialist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ) sold to Irak 110 Kilograms of plutonium. Very usefull when you have many Soviet Scuds missiles ( socialist missiles !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ), isn't it ?

So, don't forget them when you are speaking about what the USA did !!!

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Lupe, you're allways ready to stand up for Saddam.

Did you know that he was a mass murderer and a tyrant ?

LOL, hahahaha, that's all you people can come up with. Please give me some real hard evidence that Saddam is worse than any other leader in this world. I mean you people are so brainwashed that all you can think of is Iraq.

It's a shame, you forget every other nation who has an evil leader people die everyday because of no food, civil wars and so on. But you guys don't know about those tings, you only know about Iraq.

I do think of everyone everyday, and I feel sorry for everyone that has lost a someone today. I think of those things, most of you guys are selfish and arrogant.
That is why you will never be able to live in peace. There is no love between people !! We all hate eachother because we think we are better than others. Respect everyone, and if everyone do that, everyone will get respect.

Nicely spoken tigeris!

Originally posted by TigeriS

1) LOL, hahahaha, that's all you people can come up with. Please give me some real hard evidence that Saddam is worse than any other leader in this world.

2) It's a shame, you forget every other nation who has an evil leader people die everyday because of no food, civil wars and so on. But you guys don't know about those tings, you only know about Iraq.

3) I think of those things, most of you guys are selfish and arrogant.

1) Where did I write that Saddam was better or worse than any other tyrants ? He's a tyrant and I don't like tyrants ! Probably that you didn't read my other post TigeriS. I wrote many times that I was thinking that ALL the tyrants had to be removed.

2) No at all. One more time, you are doing a mistake. Read my post about Iran, North-Korea or China and so on....U'll see that I care about what these peoples have to suffer each day.

3) Forgive us, we are not like you, a " humanist " . " Us ", we are thinking that dictators have to be removed. But we have to start somewhere. So, why not with Saddam ?

We can't removed them all in just one shot.

Removing Saddam = Helping Irakis peoples.

What's wrong with helping peoples to be free from their tyrants ?

"What's wrong with helping peoples to be free from their tyrants ?"

several things. Firstly you have to be sure they are tyrants and that the action you take against them will result in a better life for the people living under them.
i.e. will military action in Iraq, which has allready killed thousands increase that number to a point where they would be better off living under the tyrant.

Next you must be sure the people want to be free of him. Its no good liberating a people from somthing they don't want to be liberated from.

Thirdly you must assure your own people that the tyrant you are attacking is actually a tyrant and not simply part of your own political adgenda.
This is the hardest part because the only way to do it is by demonstrating parity with your treatment of other tyrants. Thus far the US has not been able to justify its actions against Saddam when faced with the fact that we are currently allied to people whose human rights records are equally poor.

Lastly, you must have a definite plan concerning what you will do after the tyrant is removed. this should be clearly set out, it must take into account civillian casualties, refugees, the repercussions of war on a societys buildings and financial infrastructure.

You must demonstrate that after your actions the society will be able to rebuild to a state which is better than when it was under the tyrant.

Last time in Iraq, this was the area we neglected most, and, if we repeat the performance the repercussions will be equally if not more devistating to the people of Iraq.

Lupo do you really believe the things you write? You are not sure Saddam is a tyrant? Have you had your head in a sand pit for the last 10 years? Do you think Saddam is the democraticly elected leader of Iraq? Do you think his Military leaders fear him because he just yells really loud? Maybe you should talk to Saddams family to see how he is maybe you should ask his sons-in-law OH wait you cant ask them there dead because he had them killed!!!
I have heard alot of you guys say Iraq has no WMD. What I havent heard is any of you provide evidence that this is the case. None of you have provided any facts that prove Saddam has complied with 1441. You are just saying that the Whitehouse has a weak case for war well you have an even weaker case for not going to war! Your whole case depends on trust and your knee-jerk emotional state reguarding the Iraqi people. If you really cared so much about the innocent Iraqi people you would be asking why did Bill Clinton not send in troops after Gulf war 1 and finish the job and free the Iraqis then? Did you spin around and spit nails and call Bill Clinton a warmonger and oil-company lackey when he fired off cruise-missles at Iraq? NO your thinly veiled jabs at Bush are due to your simple hatred of Capitalism and big-business in general you guys are just left-over Commies still bent out of shape because your Workers paradise colapsed in on itself and proved to the world that socialism in all its forms is a failed delusion. As much as I disagree with the budget actions of GWB I have to respect him for sticking to his guns and not paying attention to all of your kinds rantings he has the courage to do what is nescessary to get the job done!

TigeriS - The US supported Saddam in the 1980s only because of Iran, long before he modernized his military with help from the Chinese, North Koreans, French and Germans. Those other countries are to blame for his current military, not the US.

As for calling me a war-monger, I accept it like you should accept the name idiot.

Originally posted by MT69
TigeriS - The US supported Saddam in the 1980s only because of Iran, long before he modernized his military with help from the Chinese, North Koreans, French and Germans. Those other countries are to blame for his current military, not the US.

As for calling me a war-monger, I accept it like you should accept the name idiot.

If someone's an idiot here it can only be you, I'm glad you finally recognize that what I said all the time is true, you are blind, asleep and only want war. That makes you as evil as the ones you accuse of being evil. Only you don't see it because you're in the middle of it.

You consistently try to put the blame on others, you ignore your own bad moves. I have more respect for someone recognizing his/her fault instead of trying to blame another one for it. Remember the first thing Bush said about the Antrax letters ? IRAQ, he said, but now we all know it was US. LOL You are too ignorant to understand that they want to invade IRAQ no matter what. Even if Saddam is gone there still be a case against Iraq. It's the oil stupid. They need the oil in order to save the economy. The oil is the very same reason why they help Iraq in the Iraq/Iran war. The only thing that went wrong is that Saddam didn't want to hand over his oilfields (unlike some other middle east countries) So he became an enemy !

If you knew about France, China etc helping saddam, why didn't you warn them ? I thought there was an international boycott on Iraq. After the gulf war, Iraqi army was soo weak, it was sooo easy to remove saddam. So how can it be that he has a strong army again ? I don;t think so, in fact even Powell can't provide hard evidence, and now you think you can convince me ? What a joke, What crack pipe have you been smoking ?

So, now you must stop crying, because you had your chance, and now that your economical situation is soooooo bad, (it's really awful ) you think you can just walk in and take over the country with stupid reasons. I bet you don't know about all the resolutions some nation has been ignoring for more than 35 years.

I'd be very very happy if you took the time, close your eyes, forget everything you know, believe and think for a moment and be open for the real deal. I mean the big picture, Iraq is only a small part of a bigger thing.

If you really love your country, ( I do love America, I don't like it's current leaders) you will fight these evil peoples, as soon as they came to power things went wrong in the entire world. Don't you understand ? Tell me who got better(got more power) off 9/11 ? It's surely not the terrorists. Are they still actively looking for OSB ? Did they show you lot of killed AlQ, or Taliban soldiers ? How many of those captured were sent back home because they had nothing to do with ALQ ?or Taliban ?

I'm tired, but I could go on for ever, there are more materials for a case against your goverment than for anyone else.

I know you won't reply with something to show me wrong, I know you can only call me names and say things about me personally because you have nothing else to say.

[Edited on 6-2-2003 by TigeriS]

"Lupo do you really believe the things you write?"

why would anyone write somthing they didn't believe?

"You are not sure Saddam is a tyrant? Have you had your head in a sand pit for the last 10 years? Do you think Saddam is the democraticly elected leader of Iraq?"

no, my head has been kept sand free. Yes Saddam is the democratically elected leader of Iraq. One can question wether the election was fair, I suggest that it probably wasn't, however as demonstrated by Bush's election, one must accept thast in a democracy there is a winner and a loser no matter how dodgy the election.
Bush is the democraticly elected leader of the US.
Saddam is the democraticly elected leader of Iraq.

"Do you think his Military leaders fear him because he just yells really loud? Maybe you should talk to Saddams family to see how he is maybe you should ask his sons-in-law OH wait you cant ask them there dead because he had them killed!!!"

These things make him a bad person in my view. But not liking the methods and actions of a priminister does not meen one can aust him from power by blowing up his country, if it did we would have global anarchy.

"I have heard alot of you guys say Iraq has no WMD. What I havent heard is any of you provide evidence that this is the case."

That is because in our respective democracys, guilt must be proven, not innocence. You don't electrocute a murderer because you can't prove he didn't do it.

Similarly you cant kill saddam because you can't prove he doesn't have WMD's.
besides, think of the logic. he's been told not to have WMD's, we haven't found any. As far as I'm concerned, until we find some he's actually complied to our request. Now we want to blow him up because we went to his country and discovered he didn't have any of the things he wasn't supposed to have in the first place?
hmmmm that makes sense, not.

"None of you have provided any facts that prove Saddam has complied with 1441. You are just saying that the Whitehouse has a weak case for war well you have an even weaker case for not going to war! Your whole case depends on trust and your knee-jerk emotional state reguarding the Iraqi people. If you really cared so much about the innocent Iraqi people you would be asking why did Bill Clinton not send in troops after Gulf war 1 and finish the job and free the Iraqis then?"

I think your confusing the issue, This is to be expected. you are addressing me as though I fit into your understanding of politics, i.e. if I'm not pro the war then I'm anti republican and by default a democrat and a liberal.
to be honest I don't give a sh1t who runs your country, I simply care about their actions. these ones suck.

"Did you spin around and spit nails and call Bill Clinton a warmonger and oil-company lackey when he fired off cruise-missles at Iraq?"

Oddly enough yes. I was on several anti war rallys then too. Oh and for the record, I thought Clinton was an utter [email protected] Sr too......and reagun for that matter, go figure.

"NO your thinly veiled jabs at Bush are due to your simple hatred of Capitalism and big-business in general you guys are just left-over Commies still bent out of shape because your Workers paradise colapsed in on itself and proved to the world that socialism in all its forms is a failed delusion."

your simply demonstrating your narrow out look of global politics here. I think you should probably address your own knee jerk and wildly inacurate accusations. As I stated earlyer, I'm neither a fan of Clinton or Bush, hard as it may be for you to fathom, some of us have a more intricate understanding of politics than your simplistic republican democrat paradigm.


"As much as I disagree with the budget actions of GWB I have to respect him for sticking to his guns and not paying attention to all of your kinds rantings he has the courage to do what is nescessary to get the job done!"

Interesting....you started talking about saddam, then got wrapped into internal US politics and now want to talk about the budget.

did you have a point to make before you started o did you simply intend to ramble off on some personal adgenda in the hope that it might have some sort of relevance to the thread?

Originally posted by Lupe_101
"What's wrong with helping peoples to be free from their tyrants ?"

1) several things. Firstly you have to be sure they are tyrants and that the action you take against them will result in a better life for the people living under them.
i.e. will military action in Iraq, which has allready killed thousands increase that number to a point where they would be better off living under the tyrant.

Next you must be sure the people want to be free of him. Its no good liberating a people from somthing they don't want to be liberated from.

2) Thirdly you must assure your own people that the tyrant you are attacking is actually a tyrant and not simply part of your own political adgenda.

3) This is the hardest part because the only way to do it is by demonstrating parity with your treatment of other tyrants. Thus far the US has not been able to justify its actions against Saddam when faced with the fact that we are currently allied to people whose human rights records are equally poor.

4) Lastly, you must have a definite plan concerning what you will do after the tyrant is removed. this should be clearly set out, it must take into account civillian casualties, refugees, the repercussions of war on a societys buildings and financial infrastructure.

5) You must demonstrate that after your actions the society will be able to rebuild to a state which is better than when it was under the tyrant.

1) I don't think that you believe what you wrote. That's impossible. Lupe, THE WHOLE WORLD IS AWARE THAT SADDAM IS A TYRANT !!! Where are you living ? On Mars ?

2) " Political agenda ". Finally, I understand what's going on with you, and why you are writing that Saddam is, may be, not a tyrant. You're so from the left, that you hate too much Bush. So, of course,he can do what he want, like he's not a leftist, you're still hating him. Even if Bush was finding a cancer cure, I'm sure that you'll write something like : " Huuum, yeah, but becareful to his political agenda. I think that's a trick to screw us.Don't forget, he's from the right and nothing good can come from the right and from Bush ".

3) Don't worry.Many tyrants are pefectly aware who's the next tyrant on the Bush list.

4) Really ? You have a short-memorie lupe. You don't remember what the USA did with Japan and Germany after the WW2 ? Now, Germany and Japan are both democracy !!! Not like the former-East Germany who had " the pleasure" to be "set free" by the former USSR ( unlike the rest of the poor former Eastern Europe ).

USA are not a communist nation. They will NOT enslaved the defeated nation. They will bring them democracy, peace, stability and wealth. And that's what you hate so much. The USA are NOT what you are saying on them.

5) See point 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your hypocrisy is disgusting !!! You are nothing more than a frustrated left-winger who will say and write anything, just to prove that HE'S RIGHT and the USA have WRONG.

You don't care about the Iraki or North-Korea peoples.You'll let them die in hell if it help you in your anti-USA/Right-wing crusade.

You are not a real democrat. You are just a little commie/nazis who's hidding himself behind a so-called ideal.