Originally posted by weedwhacker
With Santa Clause, different motivation, similar result....pretending to believe because you want the extra presents.

Pretending doesn't work with God, sorry.

Originally posted by AlwaysQuestion
1 Reason why I DO believe in God

1) Why not?

Ok, I'm being simplistic. The main reason is that I know, that I know, that I know. BUT that's my belief. Can I prove it? No, that's what 99% of it is - faith in something you can't put into everyday words and yet something so profound inside you just 'know'.

To "just know" is not equal to actually knowing anything reasonably. Faith is not knowing. Faith is belief without evidence. It is ignorance. I always found it slightly scary that people could announce their ignorance and be proud of it.

The problem with going on an internal feeling is that that is exactly what ALL religious people do and they come to completely different conclusions. The Greeks "just knew" there were umpteen gods, Muslim "just know" suicide bombing will be rewarded in heaven with countless young girls, Jews "just know" Jesus of the NT is a crock of * and christians "just know" that jesus is genuine.

Clearly faith is not at all the same or anything similar to 'knowing', and there is no way to measure it's accuracy.

So, let's say I have it all wrong.... I die, so what? I have lived the life I want to live, loved others more than myself and all is good.
Let's say I have it right - I get all of the above PLUS I get to be with God.

Ok, now let's say I don't believe...
Either, I have exactly the same as scenario 1, or I die and spend an eternity without God?

Makes no sense to me (unless of course you want to live a life where you put yourself before others).... but again down to me it's simply because I know that I know that I know that I know.....

This is a flawed ultimatum. God may not let you into heaven if you believe purely with selfish motives. Or there may be more clauses involved in getting his approval, in which case not only would you need to believe but you'd need to be reasonably sure what factors are for getting approval. But the latter is impossible since God doesn't communicate with mortals - and if he dose, he ain't speaking loud enough because there are thousands of equal standing beliefs out there too. You believe in God, ok fine. How do you get to know him if his speech is indistinguishable from dogma? There is no way to know.


Why I don't believe in a God:

Because I have no reason to.

I do not think it is out of the question that one may exist, but I do think religion, with all it's holy books, is no way to search for God because it isn't objective.

If God exists and is benevolent and loves me he will have no issue with contacting me directly (and if he does, i cannot be held accountable for that) but sadly my answer machine is empty... What a shame.

[edit on 9-4-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by saint4God

How are you so sure? There's a lot of assumptions being made here.

Fair enough. Perhaps I was being a little presumptuous.

I'm a little concerned that anything that I have to say could possibly sever your connection with God.

One cannot really have faith without questioning everything one believes. However, if one does find a question without an answer, it hurts one's faith. But if one does not explore these questions, one cannot even have faith, so say what you will, and I will happily take that chance!

That's the bond worth spending time strengthening.

Yes, it is.

[edit on 9/4/2009 by Saurus]

Originally posted by Karrotz

I disagree and agree respectively to these two points. Number one, for me, not believing is NOT a choice, they same way I'm sure you don't really believe in the boogeyman....Not because you choose not too, but because, well lets face it, the idea is Preposterous based on common sense as well as scientific knowledge. Not an attack at all, I just don't like being told "well thats your choice" because no its not, I believe what I believe because that's what my mind says makes sense. I can't choose to believe in Santa Clause, not "whole-heartedly and without doubt" just because I want to. (Who wouldn't want that to be a reality, especially getting what I asked for!

You are correct in your second point, IMO (as any thread like this is ALL opinion, mostly), but I would go further and say that religion has made the entire world what, or a large part of it anyways, is and will continue to be. Religion is wonderful and inspirational, and at the same time it can be utterly destructive, such as the middle east mess IMO.

Hm, it seems like I've found someone else that believes beliefs are not choices. I was arguing this with someone on Youtube for a short while (through PM). We have very little control over what we believe, if any.
I agree completely. Any god that would send me to a hell for something THEY did to me is not worth worshiping.

Originally posted by Welfhard
To "just know" is not equal to actually knowing anything reasonably. Faith is not knowing. Faith is belief without evidence. It is ignorance.

This may be 'blind faith' but it is not a 'seeing faith'. You have faith that your chair will hold your butt up. Is it because you are ignorant? No, you have faith based upon the evidence you'd gathered that it would.

Originally posted by Welfhard
The problem with going on an internal feeling is that that is exactly what ALL religious people do

And down comes the judgement hammer! Careful swinging that thing around, you may miss and strike yourself.

Originally posted by Welfhard
So, let's say I have it all wrong.... I die, so what? I have lived the life I want to live, loved others more than myself and all is good.

Except now you have to deal with eternity...or rather have eternity deal with you.

Originally posted by Welfhard
But the latter is impossible since God doesn't communicate with mortals -

He has and He does.

Originally posted by Welfhard
and if he did, he ain't speaking loud enough because there are thousands of equal standing beliefs out there too.

He's both broadcasted, sent a messanger and speaks personally. Not sure which form of communication He's missing.

Originally posted by Welfhard
How do you get to know him if his speech is indistinguishable from dogma?

His speech conflicts with many dogmas. Not all, but many.

Originally posted by Welfhard
If God exists and is benevolent and loves me he will have no issue with contacting me directly (and if he does, i cannot be held accountable for that) but sadly my answer machine is empty... What a shame.

Perhaps He will, but likely He's waiting for you to make the first move as was the case for me.

Originally posted by Saurus
One cannot really have faith without questioning everything one believes. However, if one does find a question without an answer, it hurts one's faith. But if one does not explore these questions, one cannot even have faith, so say what you will, and I will happily take that chance!

If it helps, it's Biblical to test things, even our own faith.

"Test everything. Hold on to the good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

I think God likes it when we asks questions, but likes even more when we search for the answer. I agree, I think most people of faith do question everything they believe in regularly.

Originally posted by Shadow14
The religions that are talked about on this thread such as Christianity, Judaism, Muslim etc.. are all religions of man and have very little truth in them.

Thus spaeketh Shadow14! We can all go home now knowing ultimate authority has come to ATS with the declaration of 'truth'.

Originally posted by free_spirit_earth
Religion has become corrupt and money oriented. People chip off one another in this society unfortunately and religion is the biggest chipper of them all..

Religion has become corrupt and has somewhat steered away from the teachings of love to a more money oriented business.

Lots of judgement hammers in the house today. I wouldn't build any houses with them however, they're likely to fall from missed nailings.

Originally posted by Welfhard
Ah good ol' George Carlin. The late great.

It's always difficult to have a serious discussion when a comedian pops up. *sigh*


[edit on 9-4-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
You mentioned Santa Claus, I always found it funny that people don't see the parallels between God and Santa. God is typically depicted as an older man with a beard sitting in Heaven surrounded by immortal angels who help him. Santa is an older man with a beard who has immortal elves who help him. God sees all, Santa sees all. God gives out reward and punishment for behavior, so does Santa... And yet you typically don't see adults who believe in Santa, but they'll tell you all about their belief in God

Saint Nicholas was a real man who emulated the love of Christ and Godly ways by Giving. This is what Saint Nicholas and God have in common. God being depicted as an old man is a problem with depiction. Saint Nicholas is dead and there's no reason to create a myth of the kind of loving, compassionate man he was. God is real, Saint Nicholas was real.

Originally posted by Welfhard
Faith is defined as belief without evidence. If you have a belief form on evidence, it is not faith, plain and simple. You can't have what you call "seeing faith" for God primarily because there is no evidence for god (ergo: faith). Secondly, "seeing faith" as you suggest it is oxymoronic.

Unfortunately I'm not sure how to articulate deduction and 'filling in the blanks' sort of reasoning any easier than the chair example. Taking 'seeing faith' as literal does make it seem oxymoronic, but understanding the metaphoric difference between thoughtless acceptance and reasonable trust shed lights like to an otherwise intangible concept.

Originally posted by Welfhard
Ok, on the assumption that is true, it is still indistinguishable from ALL dogma.

A personal relationship with God will distinguish what He says versus what any person says.

Originally posted by Welfhard
So this all loving being waits all my life - till I die - wait for me to make the first move. He knows I exist and cannot know he exists until he shows himself to me. I get to heaven and say.
>"Wow! you exist?!"
-"Yes, but unfortunately you have to spend eternity in hell cos you didn't believe."
>"I didn't believe cos I was never saw you."
-"I was waiting for you before I revealed myself."
".... For an all-knowing, all-wise being you, sir, are a *ing moron. You have just willingly sentenced me to eternal suffering for no reason at all."

Sorry you feel that way. May this scenario not come to pass, I'll ask Him if He's willing to approach first.

[edit on 9-4-2009 by saint4God]

Religion, or the idea of a God, is open to too many possibilities for me to believe in just one because thats what a couple books said. We have the internet now, so there is way easier access to alternate ideas than in the past. Even just decades ago, other than what was taught is school, in order for someone to seek thier own research, they would have to do a lot of out of home research to really learn. If you did, then you had a great interest and drive towards that one subject. And really, not a lot of people had that much of an interest to research, just go to church, read the bible, and trust that the preacher knows something I don't. To most average Christians, not all I might add, going to church and some occasional religious excerpts are enough to convince.

I lean more towards no God, but not one hundred percent. I mean, I see design in lots of things not man made. But I also see randomness, like some insects or wildly colored animals. Sure, lots of specific things had to happen when our solar system was made, lots of unlikely events, for us to exist. Statistically speaking, it had to happen eventually, since us being here is testimonial that it was possible. Because it was so unlikely, could simply mean just that, I didn't happen very often! Hence, no real proof of life close enough for us to contact or vice versa.

So I guess I can see both sides, so I just tend to stay out of the mix all together. Back and forth we go.....

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by free_spirit_earth
Religion has become corrupt and money oriented. People chip off one another in this society unfortunately and religion is the biggest chipper of them all..

Religion has become corrupt and has somewhat steered away from the teachings of love to a more money oriented business.

Lots of judgement hammers in the house today. I wouldn't build any houses with them however, they're likely to fall from missed nailings.

Maybe god will help you build your house for you then. but your gonna have to give him money to help buy the materials he needs LOLZ....