Accepting Questions About the Demised of FCP

reply to post by nyk537


That's a very good question, and IMO there is absolutely no logical answer.

Fighters do not "need" a separate thread. We are protesting the closure of the FCP because it was (in our eyes) arbitrary and unnecessary.

There is a sense of lament and loss, of yearning for a return to the status quo. Fighters did not need our own thread, but we certainly appreciated it.

The real reason behind that is exclusivity and elitism. I am elitist, and I say it unflinchingly. Out of ATS' 160,711 users, only 30 or so are current fighters. Is it a coincidence that these 30 are pretty much the only people I respect without boundaries? Of course, there are a few non-fighters who I respect too, however it is a question of proportion. The debate forum is disporportionately filled with intelligent and civil people.

SO said it himself- the debate forum attracts the best of the best of ATS. FCP was the heart of that.

That said, I don't have a problem with an open forum called the FCP, located in BTS. I suspect the debate forum is a self-selecting sample. I doubt anyone who wouldn't ordinarily post in the debate forums would post in a new "open FCP" anyhow.

All in all, this is much ado about nothing. Easily solved by just moving the FCP to BTS and opening it up. And perhaps another debaters' only posting thread to post vital communiques (eg "I am going out of town tomorrow, can we postpone the debate until next week").

[edit on 9-4-2009 by 44soulslayer]

Sorry for entering here once again.

But I would like to place another opinion.

In case we wanted to make a request for a debate or any idea for a debate topic; we would generally ask fellow fighters to post opinions for the topic. Now that the thread has been closed for good. I can just say one thing. You cannot expect quality debates frequently anymore, because the time factor involved for communication via u2u would be a major pain and would discourage many fighters from debating. It is better to shut down the debate forum as a whole.

Rant over. Thank you.:bnghd:

Had my coffee... jumping in to some new points as best I can...

Originally posted by americandingbat
Perhaps you could explain to us what the problem with having a "social lounge" in such a forum is?

Because we generally do not want to promote a club-like atmosphere in any way shape or form within ATS or BTS... where participation is restricted. It happened by accident with the FCP thread, we stopped it, and now we're looking to create alternatives.

Several times (more than I can count) over the years, we've received well-thought suggestions to create a system that would enable people to donate regular monthly cash amounts to the operation of ATS. And even though such a revenue-stream would make my job so much easier, each time we have said no. The reason? In all cases I've seen, it creates a social divide between those who can contribute, and those who cannot. And throughout all our careful management and planning of what happens on ATS, we always consider ways to ensure such social divides are prevented.

If you are interested in encouraging greater participation in structured debates, I strongly feel it's in your interest to provide a thread that functions as the FCP has: to allow newbies to acclimate, to give them access to experienced fighters for encouragement and for regulation.

I'm unclear as to why such a "fighters only" thread is required to promote more debates. We've had quite a few solid debates, seemingly with no trouble, before the thread began.

However, in the interest of proving my frank feedback with the intent of working with all participants toward great debates... I tend to think some focus has been lost, and it appears to coincide with the "lounge" atmosphere of the FCP thread.

Consider the opening paragraph of the post that launched the debate forum: "The debate forum is a concept we've discussed in the Cosmic forum for some time... a place for quality back-and-forth structured debate on contemporary and important topics that are at the forefront of ATS discussions." ("William" is me before I created the S.O. account).

There are plenty of places within the "ATS Universe" where members can interact in a relaxed off-topic environment... I'm not convinced of the need for such an environment that is restricted to debate participants.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
The idea that 30 of the best and brightest of your Members ‘chatting’ while crafting 50k characters worth of arguments -- and reading a 100+ pages of docs -- to defend positions they may not believe in, but that supports your motto, is going to disincentivize your User base is nonsense and if you can find the time to stop and really think about it… you would know that is true.

I'm not sure I follow your point... but I think you may be referring to my concern that those not participating in debates will see the point-generation of the FCP thread with some resentment. From a site management standpoint, it's a very important concern... and has been addressed above in my comments about social divides.

Not to diminish the efforts of our members who contribute to excellent debates and excellent non-debate posts... but our most important members are the 70-100 new ones we receive every day. Within those newcomers are certainly a percentage of people with extraordinary things to say, and most certainly, the capability to astound us with they way they say it. Our staff and our experienced members need to ensure we do everything possible to incentivize those people to participate and add to the intellectual capital of ATS. Something that may be perceived as a social divide among members is not doing our best to ensure new members feel they've found a new home.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Furthermore on the issue of points. Here's the honest truth- nobody cares.

As I mentioned, I understand. However, there are many who do for one reason or another. Those members on the outside looking in likely care in one way or another.

Is the quality of the debate forum automatically elevated by the banning of idle chit chat? Not in my opinion, sir.

But... idle chit chat is not for ATS in the first place... and certainly not under the banner of the debate forum.

Consider this: a quick query of our Google Analytics shows 4,268 "landings" by non-members on the FCP thread in the past four months. That means, through whatever mechanism (search, referral, link) over four thousand unique first-time visitors experienced their first ATS visit by landing on the FCP thread... and the "bounce rate" is 82%, meaning only 18% of those first-time visitors clicked on another ATS link. (Our site-wide bounce rate is an industry-typical 48%). By contrast, the debate forum topics list page has had 14,109 "landings" by first-time visitors in the same period, with a bounce rate of 24%.

You guys do make advertising revenue from the site, and on your statistics page you cite the number of unique posts per thread as a selling point.

I'm not clear on how that applies. It has nothing to do with ad revenue or even something that would be attractive to a potential advertiser... it's simply an interesting stat.

Additionally, total posts must also be an important marketing statistic for the Above Network. Why have you taken a decision that will directly reduce the number of posts on your site?

Total posts play a minor role (if that) in how we present ATS to potential advertisers. But the number of posts is much more of a interesting point for potential new members... it places a quantitative representation on the amount of intellectual capital here.

Many of our policies result in the potentiality to reduce potential post-count. If our restrictions on duplicate threads, minimal posts, on-topic threads, and news-thread requirements were not in place, we'd have double or triple the number of daily posts we now have... and I'm fine with that... despite sensational rumors to the contrary, we value quality over quantity. If you examine our big-boards rank, you'll see that all the boards in our traffic range have significantly more posts-per-day than we do. The quality-versus-quantity aspect comes to light given the "landing" stats I provided above.

SO, thank you for listening to us and answering our concerns. I appreciate it.

Thank you for considering a fighters-only debate business forum. That would at least give us a place to conduct "necessary" communications without having to try to u2u everyone.

I suppose an FCP in the BTS is the best option we're going to get. It's better than nothing. However, I think that every one of us has "enemies" for one reason or another, some just by the fact that they are mods and some because we've crossed swords with someone on the boards. Considering the formerly relaxed nature of the FCP and the sometimes personal information which was shared, I do not think that a BTS FCP will be the same thing. It would be too easy for the people who have issues with any of the fighters to follow us into the FCP and insult or harass us. You have an example at hand of something similar happening to me yesterday, so I don't think anyone can say it's not possible. Aside from that, if the FCP is getting all of those "outside" hits, how many times a day will the fighters end up having to try to politely explain to a new member what the FCP is, what debates are all about, what they need to do to be able to participate, and/or explain why we are just smack talking or joking and no one is really mad?

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Hey Overlord, I kept my head out of this yesterday. But I think that the most important thing about the Debate Forum was the FCP. When I became a fighter I was looking for guidance and the first place I went to- The FCP. I made friends right away. And in making friends I was able to grow with them. A few friends I made were Skeptic, Heike, Orange-Light, Ian, S-DOG and the others that are in there that I di dnot mention. It allowed us to keep in touch and have quick access to each other. When one of us was down we stepped in and raised them back up- when one of us needed help with something we helped them. It became more than a FIGHT club or a pub or anything, I think in reality we became a family. And for that house of ours to be cut down and burnt to the ground so quickly. Our family was left homeless with no where to go.

It was like Hurricane Katrina (which I stayed for) but on ATS. We had warnings that it was coming, Warning from Intrepid, MemoryShock and others saying that an announcemnet would be made soon. But then for the actually hurricane to arrive was unexpected for how quickly it came. The family was fighting to stay a float, but it was going against a huge massive hurricane that it could not survive no matter what was said. And as quickly as it came, the hurricane left, leaving only anger, destruction and homelessness in its leaving. Thats what it was like and that is why people are pissed off.

Now seriously, where are we going to go. How are we going to help eachother when we cannot find eachother? How are we going to grow with each other when our home is gone? Was it really because of the Chit-Chat, like you and the others are stating. If it was then why was it handled better. Why was there not a U2U to all fighters stating exactely what you all wanted and expected from us.

You see my sister managed a website a long time ago, and she said that her biggest mistake she made was not listening to the public. Not listening to the people. Just making a decision without looking at the other groups point of view. And I think that the majprity of us feel that our side was not considered as equally as the executive side was.

Was there not enough debating going on in the pub? Since I cannot go back and view everything. I thought there was. But my thoughts are irrelevant. I remember getting into a debate with Skeptic1 over GI Joe and Barbie and who would win in a fight. Was that not debate talk or was that Chit Chat? Or when a member said that a loved one in his family died, were we not supposed to care? Were we just to ignore him and not give him condolence or try to make him feel better? There were enough mods in that room to tell us to chill if we got to far off subject, did they warn us? No. I think that the majority feel:

1) Robbed
2) Homeless
3) Pissed
4) Confused
5) Anger
6) Dispise
7) Disrespected
8) everything got out of hand
9) The wrong decision was made
10) Our side was ignored and so were own feelings.

Personally, my thoughts are irrelevent. I am sure you can find out where I stand on this subject. But in the end the decsison was made.

So what are you and the rest of the PTB consering on doing, lets work on the resolution to this.

Originally posted by Heike
I think that every one of us has "enemies" for one reason or another, some just by the fact that they are mods...

WHAT?

Where the hell is that coming from and WHY is it coming from someone who has been afforded special opportunities here on ATS?

That comment is exceptionally disturbing to me... and opens up additional potential concerns.

Now I'm confused. Why are you troubled by the idea that I know some people don't like me?

With 10,000 people we aren't all going to get along.

And some people do get angry and resentful when they are warned or otherwise corrected by a mod and hold a grudge. That's quite obvious to anyone who reads the ATS Issues thread.

If you are going to react like that to what I thought was a perfectly reasonable and self-evident statement, perhaps I should just bow out of this discussion entirely.

Originally posted by TheMythLives
But I think that the most important thing about the Debate Forum was the FCP. When I became a fighter I was looking for guidance and the first place I went to- The FCP. I made friends right away. And in making friends I was able to grow with them.

I'm not clear as to how the lack of a special access thread on a site like ATS/BTS would prevent that. Really... I'm not be purposefully obtuse for the sake of argument.

Now seriously, where are we going to go. How are we going to help eachother when we cannot find eachother?

Again... I really am confused about this perception here in the confines of a social content community with private messaging, chat, social networking, and an off-topic discussion component.

Why was there not a U2U to all fighters stating exactely what you all wanted and expected from us.

There's no mechanism for title-specific U2U mailings... so the FCP thread was closed/moved and this thread started.

You see my sister managed a website a long time ago, and she said that her biggest mistake she made was not listening to the public. Not listening to the people. Just making a decision without looking at the other groups point of view.

The bigger mistake is not sticking to the clear principals and goals that started things. I think we have a long history of demonstrating that we always desire to work with our members to make ATS better... but that's always tempered with our vision and goals.

Originally posted by Heike
If you are going to react like that to what I thought was a perfectly reasonable and self-evident statement, perhaps I should just bow out of this discussion entirely.

Clearly... I'm stunned you would consider staff of this site as "enemies."

It doesn't make any sense at all.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Say WHAT? That is not what I said, Sir.

I SAID that some of the fighters have enemies just by virtue of their being mods.

Please re-read my post.

Originally posted by Heike
I do not think that a BTS FCP will be the same thing. It would be too easy for the people who have issues with any of the fighters to follow us into the FCP and insult or harass us. You have an example at hand of something similar happening to me yesterday, so I don't think anyone can say it's not possible.

Let us stick to the truth here, shall we? I assume you are talking about me? I did not "follow" you anywhere, I posted in two threads open to any member, something you obviously did not like.

May I remind you that YOU foed me (twice!), and then even sent me a U2U trying to get me to stay out of and not reading certain threads.

YOU were the one harassing me for daring to speak my mind about the unfair points system in the silly chitchat FCP thread. I am disgusted that you are trying to turn this the other way around.
:shk:

SECOND REMINDER

This thread is for discussion of the FCP....not each other.

Let's keep it that way.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Maybe I'm the one thats not understanding:

I'm not clear as to how the lack of a special access thread on a site like ATS/BTS would prevent that. Really... I'm not be purposefully obtuse for the sake of argument.

I think you are obtuse to the situation, and that is not a bad thing. Thats a good executive quality, but when one runs a forum with 10,000+ members all sides must be taken into account. The FCP forum was for fighters only- Correct. We have our fighters tags and our fighter spot...correction we had our fighters spot. That enabled us to have our home, where we could grow as a family. No where are we going to go to? DATS? Please the majority of FCP did not even touch DATS. Now we are scattered like the victims of Hurricane Katrina...

Again... I really am confused about this perception here in the confines of a social content community with private messaging, chat, social networking, and an off-topic discussion component.

Ok Private Messaging- u2u's cannot be sent to everyone at once.
Chat- I do not use it and I know only about 3 members form the FCP that us eit.
Social Networking- we are not all a fan of the same topics and hang out in different areas.
Off-Top Discussion compnenets- all we had was one home- FOR FIGHTERS- which we no longer have..

There's no mechanism for title-specific U2U mailings... so the FCP thread was closed/moved and this thread started.

Then why is my email spammed with Above topsecret emails.... It can be done. Why is my u2u box recieving: The Latest Polls For The NWO are in. Come on, it can be done my friend. All it takes is time and it can be done.

The bigger mistake is not sticking to the clear principals and goals that started things. I think we have a long history of demonstrating that we always desire to work with our members to make ATS better... but that's always tempered with our vision and goals.

Obviously it was not clear enough my friend... and members were not worked with on this issue...

Like I said before friend, we feel what we feel.

Originally posted by nyk537
Listen....in my eyes this is very simple.

I've seen the point made that fighters must have a dedicated place to talk to each other in order to keep the debate forum alive.

I find this newfound position puzzling.

I say newfound because you are one of the members who was most active in the FCP thus my assumption was that you realized its value.

I have to ask....why?

I believe that every fighter who has expressed themselves either on this thread or in the last few pages of the FCP has answered this question t the best of their ability.

Perhaps you were being rhetorical.


Again it seem that misperceptions either intentional or unintentional abound.

Let me say once more for the record.

Anyone and Everyone on ATS can join the Debate Forum

Thus Anyone and Everyone can have access to an FCP like thread.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


I do realize it's value.

However, I'm also able to realize that it's value would not be lost in any way by changing the format.

There are many places in BTS where we can hang out and talk about whatever we want to. We can exchange other information and meet on venues other than ATS.

I'm just as guilty as anyone of using the FCP for senseless banter, but I'm also ready to stop and make the necessary changes.

This is getting tiresome and we're talking around in circles.

Those of us who believe that an FCP like thread adds value to the debate forum have said our peace and made our case. We have tried as best we can to answer every concern be it toning down the "chit chat," forgoing points, and addressing the exclusivity misperception.

There seem to be forces at work here, outside of our view and control, which are dead-set on killing the FCP notion. It also seems that those forces will prevail.

So please, make a decision and let's all just move on. We do not have to either like or agree with with the final decision but we will surely respect it.

I wonder if those who are driving this effort will ever concede that they were wrong should that be proven to be the case. Unlikely in my opinion, as most of them have not even had the courage to identify themselves throughout this process. I wonder if the interest of ATS is primary in their consciousness.

Executive decision time...

We are going back to what made the ATS Debate Forum a beacon for civil, highly interesting, ATS TOPICAL expressions of brilliant minds.

This discussion is fruitless and appears to be causing more confusion and bruised feelings than answers or solutions.

There never was a "fighter only" thread or forum until the FCP. I consider that thread an experiment that failed. Lots of experiments fail, no big deal.

Our vision for ATS combined with our business plan must direct the ship that is ATS and The Above Network, LLC. I know many of you disagree with Bill and I and that's fair, but at the end of the day it's Bill and I that must make the hard choices and suffer the consequences of our actions.

This is the final word on "fighter only" forums or threads...

No.

I really hope that if you truly love to debate that won't matter to you, but I'll understand if it does.

Springer...

reply to post by Springer


Finally an answer. Thank you Springer for just SAYING it. Now we can actually move on.

[edit on Apr 9th 2009 by TheMythLives]