Vatican City gives 'Harry Potter' two thumbs up

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posted on Feb, 6 2003 @ 05:27 PM
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This is a game of give an take we are playing here, Truth. I'll give you points for your knowledge, but you need to be sure to respect my knowledge as well. Having said that, I'll continue.

"incorrect, he is subject to the church of god and he (must) hold this as the only saving truth."

Perhaps you are forgetting that the Pope is a human being. He is not a god; he merely has standards to live by in his position. He must hold the Church's views, yes, but the Church does not tell him what brand of chewing gum he is allowed to chew. In fact, I'd rather take the exact opposite viewpoint of you. The Pope has ultimate freedom within the Church. The Pope can make decrees that the Church must follow. He makes any previous decrees either right or wrong. He has the facts and thousands of years worth of knowledge in his vault/basement.


" " all people have access to christ "
true. But he has said that all men are united to christ forever which means that aall men are saved, which contradicts jesus and the churches teachings. "

Who gave you the right to say that the others are damned? I agree, perhaps he doesn't have the right to say that they are saved or not, but no one does except God, I suppose? Do you not agree?

"read his own words, Redemtor hominus #13, Centesimus annus#53, Missio #4.

read for yourself."

No, I do not use the Bible as my reference for most discussions... real life is proof enough for me.


"I will, he literally prayed in a jewish synagogue for the coming of the jewish messiah which means he rejects the christ. ill provide link later."

I'm looking forward to it... make sure it is a legitimate site, please.


"mary appears to her for some apparitions, she is the only one alive from fatima which 70,000 all saw and all sick were healed that day... choose not to believe if you wish, just dont call her a liar when you do not know."

Don't get defensive. I actually believe the Fatima apparitions were very interesting. I have not found any counter evidence (or good stuff anyway) to believe that what happened was not spectacular. Regardless of who gave the prophecies, there must be proof that the prophecies are fulfilled. John Smith was a prophet of sorta for the Mormon faith, but I doubt you would hold his prophetic visions to be true. So from now on, pretend like I am seeing this from the point you see John Smith. I will be critical, but not unshakeable.


"He was jewish, but upon istitution of the (new) sacrafice and covenant the old one was abrogated. which means that the jewish men of the OT reject the new sacrafice for salvation and the christ (their) messiah, so they are not our brothers in faith unless they convert."

It does not make them our enemies either. You have a very black vs white viewpoint going on here. Life is rarely, if ever, just black and white. I believe Jesus saves good people, even if they don't necessarily follow him. It may be a different story if they curse Jesus, but I do not believe that other faiths do curse Jesus what-so-ever. In fact, Jesus is a part of their faith, just not as intregral as yours or mine.


" "" islam and christianity are quite similar ""
Not at all, muslims believe that they have a slave master relationship with god, while christians believe that they are sons and daughters of the living god."

I completely disagree. If anything, many Christians are slaves to their religion. The meek inherit the Earth, while Kings are appointed by God. Don't you think that is a double standard? It is in the Bible. We are as two faced as they are. The only free man is the one who chooses to be free. Take a philosophy class.

"thats why they do not accept the (son) of god because he is one a master."

You didn't state that very well. Reread and rewrite so I can get what your point is suppose to be. Muslims believe Mohammed was a prophet, Jesus was a prophet, and God is almighty. Doesn't sound like an evil religion to me.


"if we were not sons of god then why did he creat us?"

Well God created everything. In my view, God is everything. Why did He create us? That is a question that no one but God knows. Perhaps the reason isn't as important as the way you live your life. Remember that.

"we are not servants, we are free servants from a father in heaven who loves us as children, the same love we have for our children, god has for us even more, and is this not evident in our hearts?"

You have no children, do you Truth? You are in your late teens, early 20's if I remember correctly. I have no children, but I can tell you that only a real parent can feel that for their children... an experience that neither of us has ever had to compare to. You seem to try to understand God in terms that are foreign to you. Evidence in our hearts is for our fellow man. My Muslim brother (genericly speaking) is just as important to me as my Christian brother. Only those who reserve a special place in my heart gain that admiration. Just being a Christain is not enough to be included in a circle of love... unless they choose to be a part of one.

"totally differnt faiths."

Only to a man who is completely capable of understanding and completely blind to the love of mankind.

"dont tell me about it (tradition) either, what i live by is what the saints lived by in the (dark) ages while thhey were fed to the lions and burned alive for christ."

Umm... the Church burned people alive. That was one of their favorite forms of torture. Read your history. I believe the dark ages were one of the most successful times for the Church. How about I take your word on this one. The dark ages had many bad parts as well, I will agree.


"I love your soul protector and have a deep care for it."

I pet it and feed it every night before I go to bed
.


"what taught me this? tradition through god."

More like common sense if you ask me. I don't believe you were ever a bad person, Truth. You seem like you are running from your past by hiding behind the Church, or something. You know, even when you didn't know Jesus, I still prayed for people like you. I didn't pray that you found Christ before you burned in Hell... I prayed that you would have a good life and find your own truths and path towards eternity.

"not false tradition, true tradition of gods teachings."

True traditions come from the heart, not a Bible. God will direct your hands if you let Him. Incase you have not notice, I do not need the Bible to handle my arguments. If Jesus could not use the Bible in his battles, then neither will I.


"1. love thy neighbors.
2. pray for your enemies and love them.
and who lives by these today?"

Billions of people... unfortunitely, they are the ones who don't make the news because they are too "boring."

I look forward to your response.




posted on Feb, 6 2003 @ 06:19 PM
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You aren't the only one who is looking forward to it. I think it will go something like this....



You go to hellllllll!!!!!!!! For god tells me sooo!!!!!!! You face wrath of god!!!!! I am right for I own a bible!!!!!!!! You are evil!!!!!! Do not question me for god talks to me!!!!!!! Evil!!!!!

By the way in the bible it says this. "If you don't believe everything that truth says, you face wrath of god!!!!" Something 13:666

peace

Actually, I rarly read his posts, everytime I do I either post something stupid like bullets for believers or get abso poso pissed off.



posted on Feb, 11 2003 @ 04:04 PM
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Where'd you go, Truth? I was fascinated by our discussion of these topics. I hope to hear back from you soon.

BTW, I have read up on the Fatima Miracles and can discuss my views on them when you are ready.



posted on Feb, 12 2003 @ 08:03 PM
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Don't wait to long Protector.

But still, truth, why is giving education and teaching children to read being approven by the church blasphme?(sp?) Why is showing tolerance to others a smack in the face of Jesus? Why is meeting with others of different faiths wrong? The pope is tolerant, unlike you. The pope tries to make peace with others, unlike you. People like you are the ones that started the Crusades, Inquisitions, trials. How can we have peace with people like you? People who say you wrong, you going to hell because I say so and my book says so. And what do you base your arguments on? A book revised several million times, a voice you hear in your head you claim to be god, seeing "miracles" you can't prove or what drug you were on when said miracle happened. You base it all on blind faith with no proof or evidence. Of course, no religon has proof. They judge everything on faith, blind faith. Not facts, not science, faith.



posted on Feb, 12 2003 @ 09:13 PM
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Sorry protector, im on alot of websites in church debates.


Ok ill just skip over james since its the same thing.


1. You said the pope can make decrees and the church must follow.


(exactly). (but) he cannot and must not (change) or alter previous decrees which
were given to the church (infallibly).

infact this is what vatican ll has done massively.



2. you said noone but god can say whos saved and whos not?

(exactly), and our pope as said every man is saved and we all (have) christ meaning universal salvation.

think about that. what would satan love most knowing where he is at?

That (everybody) is fine and already saved so we become so lax to our evils that we die by sin.


3. you said i do not use bibles for my references.

what i gave you was letters and encyclicals and not the bible.

in his own words.

redemptors hominus #13
centesimus annus #53
Missio #4


4. you said jesus saves good people i believe.

me too, but imagine this for a minute.

you as god, existed, before us creatures you made, you knew all the truths
all the secrets and you created our very beings, you knew there was no other than you.

would you not after given these miracles out accpet them in eternity who (rejected) you?

(works) without (faith) is dead.

likewise

(faith) without (works) is dead.

i believe all (good) will be in heaven and i believe god will find the good (show_) them the truth
and save them from satan at the end of their life.

and whos to say the good who you think are good, are not evil on the inside?

Gods judgements are just because he knows our inner heart and being.



5. you said (i believe christians are slaves to their own religion.

only to one who sees only earthly things, and not eternal life and the preaching of love from jesus.

those who sin are slaves to sin.

i am a slave only to (love) of god and people which to me means im (free).


6. you said the meek inherit the earth.

who said all rulers are damned?

who said all meek are (all) (non) rulers?



7. You dont think anything is wrong with the muslim belief.

alright let me explain something.

1. They believe god is the master and they are the slaves, and his love is only determined on your faithfullness.

this is why they have forcable conversion and why they have orginizations for terror.

thus believing by killing (infidels) they recieve a reward.

while chrstians believe god is a (god) aand a (father) in heaven who loves them
nomatter their faults if they repent and loves them as his (KIDS) not (SERVANTS).


the muslims believe in allah as their master whic cannot look paste the love for him nor his
love for us.

it is completely different in the sense of worship.



8. you said muslim brothers are important to me as christians.


me too, infact we have christians who are evil on the inside but faithfull on the outside.

I offer sacrafices and pray for muslims every day and love them as much as anyone else.

(every) soul is important to me, and you wouldnt believe how much i love soul and want them to enjoy eternal life.



9. You said only to a man uncapable and blind to the love of mandkind.

Im not blind to the love of mandkind.

have you read my heart?

or watched my tears?


10. The (tradition) burned people alive and tortured people.

Do you know how many (anti) popes we have had in our day?

atleast 12/13 who were prophecied antipopes by their actions by (saints) the (same) members of
this " torturing religion "

we do not preach (forcable) conversion in (any) of our doctrines.

and do you think that because it is christ church it is free from (heretics)?

what about the saints who were burned alive, yet did not raise a hand against their enemies?

why?

true church teaching.


11. You thought i was running from my past by hiding behind my church.


you have not seen what has led me into this church. nor have you seen my past. please explain this
question alittle more because what led me to this church was miracles.


12. finally you said that billions of people live by love but are not shown on tv/news because they are too boring.

this is my point, todays society hates (morality) and this is the exact reversal of the kingdom of god which is (hell) on earth.

while billlions do live by this, even more billions do not.


Now, what is it you said about fatima?


peace.



posted on Feb, 14 2003 @ 10:40 AM
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Incidentally, I've mentioned this before and I don't think Truth ever commented.
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say he is the Son of God. He does descibe himself as the Son of Man.


1. They believe god is the master and they are the slaves, and his love is only determined on your faithfullness.


The Christian god reputedly gets irritable with those who aren't faithful. Cast into the outer darkness where there is only a wailing and gnashing of teeth, in fact.

Also, you say you offer sacrifices for your Muslim brothers. Can I ask, what sacrifices? Do you make burnt offerings?



posted on Feb, 14 2003 @ 01:00 PM
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maany times jesus says hes god and ill write them..

first what kind of sacrafices i offer for muslims?

if i like have the flue, or a headache instead of taking medication and try as fast
as i can to erase the pain illl (offer) it up for souls.

in gods eyes all sin must be accounted for, thats why he had the sacrafice of pure animals
to take he place of mans sin as an offering.

very hard for us humans to understand.


isaiah spoke of the one who paved the way for christ.

Matt 3:3

"" Isaiah had spoken when he said... A voice crying out in the desert
prepare the way for the (lord) make strait his paths ""


Matt 7:21

"" Not all that say to (me) lord lord shall enter into the kingdom, but he who
does the will of my father ""


Matt 16:14

"" jesus said who do you think i am? Simon peter said in reply, you are
the (messiah) the son of the living God. Jesus said to him in reply, (blessed are you, simon
son of jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father in heaven ""

"" and so i say to you thou art peter and upon (this) rock i shall build my church, and
the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give (you) the (keys) to the kingdom
of heaven ""




(key)

Matt 26:63

"" Then the high priest said to him, i order thee to tell us under
oath before the living god, whether you are the messiah the son of god..

Jesus said to them in reply, you have said so, but i tell you, from now one you will
se the son of man (seated) at the right hand of the power and coming on the
clouds of heaven....

Then the high priest tore his robes and said; he has blasphemed! what further need have we of witness? while they slapped him they said prophecy
for us messiah who is it that struck you ""


John 7:24

"" Thaat is why i told you you will die in your sins, for if you do not believe that (I) (AM), you will die in your sins ""

"" when you life up the son of man, then you will realize that (i) (am) ""


i could give you many more examples but just thought these were some of the most noticable.


peace.



posted on Feb, 15 2003 @ 03:29 PM
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"(but) he cannot and must not (change) or alter previous decrees which were given to the church (infallibly). infact this is what vatican ll has done massively."

If something is wrong, change it. Just because they are old or traditional doesn't make them right. I don't believe you would agree with burning "witches" at the stake, impaling enemies of the church, hanging, drawn and quartering, or using a guillotine. These were all punishments of the Church at one point.... aren't you glad those days are over?


"(exactly), and our pope as said every man is saved and we all (have) christ meaning universal salvation. ... That (everybody) is fine and already saved so we become so lax to our evils that we die by sin."

You are right, he probably should keep his mouth shut on such matters, but how do you inspire people by telling them that they are going to Hell? You don't. Your religion dies because it is massicistic and you have done nothing for the people. I don't think that people "naturally" allow evil take over. We always fight evil because nobody likes getting their toes stepped on. You seem to believe that evil is the overpowering force of nature or nature itself.


"you as god, existed, before us creatures you made, you knew all the truths all the secrets and you created our very beings, you knew there was no other than you. would you not after given these miracles out accpet them in eternity who (rejected) you?"

Has a miracle happened to you? I mean personally? The only reason I still have so much faith is God is because one happened to me. I can't prove it, but I don't care... I have no need to prove it to anyone. If I was God, I'd have either done a better job or there is a much bigger reason, that we don't even understand yet, at work. Either way, yes... my fault for making them... my problem if they fail... because I AM THE ONLY ONE, as you said.

"(works) without (faith) is dead.
(faith) without (works) is dead."

I think that only the heart dies and everything else just reflects that lose. I fear that my heart is dying and it shows in other aspects of my life. I'm not sure that I would blaim God, but I'm not sure that I WON'T, either.

I believe you are saved because you have finally found your place in God's heart. If I go to Hell, then so be it. No one knows that is in store for us... but I am very confident that I made a part of my life that will never go away. I'm happy with that decision.

"and whos to say the good who you think are good, are not evil on the inside?"

This is one of the biggest issues today. We have to make a personal decision to believe in good people and be ready for a stab in the back. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

"Gods judgements are just because he knows our inner heart and being."

Justice has no real definition and we have no way to define God's "judgements" either. He does know my inner heart and He'd probably be disappointed, but that doesn't mean His love is gone for me... nor mine gone for Him.


"those who sin are slaves to sin."

I agree.

"i am a slave only to (love) of god and people which to me means im (free)."

Do not be a slave to love, either. Love hurts... and has certainly hurt me, even with my lack of experience with it. Love in itself is not wonderful and "God," yet God is everything, beyond love, and unexplainable. I have felt God and God did not feel like love, nor any feeling describable. We need to remove emotion from our perceptions in order to get to the truth, sometimes.


"6. you said the meek inherit the earth.
who said all rulers are damned?
who said all meek are (all) (non) rulers?"

I'm just making sure that you have a level head on this issue... I've known many people who went to my old church that believed literal translations over common sense.


"this is why they have forcable conversion and why they have orginizations for terror."

They believe in physically defending their beliefs as Christians once did. (Crusades) I'm not sure they really think of it as a master/slave relationship... but if they do, then those particular Muslims are out of line as well. Let's not stereotype.

"while chrstians believe god is a (god) aand a (father) in heaven who loves them nomatter their faults if they repent and loves them as his (KIDS) not (SERVANTS)."

You make repenting sound like a good thing, with negative aspects. Repenting for sins is sometimes like telling a slave master, "Thanks for the beating." We do not bring much of the evil of this world onto ourselves, but we must deal with it. If I have to appologize for God's doing or allowing, then NO! If something truly is my fault, then yes I believe an appology (repent) is the right thing to do.


"the muslims believe in allah as their master whic cannot look paste the love for him nor his love for us."

That is pure opinion, so please keep that out of this discussion.


"(every) soul is important to me, and you wouldnt believe how much i love soul and want them to enjoy eternal life."

I have no doubt that you have good intentions and parhaps a kind heart, but that does not make your perceptions correct. Perception is the issue here, not your continuous efforts to support your own beliefs.


"have you read my heart? or watched my tears?"

No, but people wear their hearts and tears are usually only shed in private. I am a great judge of people and character, moreso than perhaps I would even care for. Your heart speaks in your words and I do not believe it is completely pure.


"and do you think that because it is christ church it is free from (heretics)?"

I'm more worried that it is not Christ's Church to begin with... aren't you? You have given more evidence than anyone on that... yet you still follow it.

"what about the saints who were burned alive, yet did not raise a hand against their enemies?"

They are either idiots or truly good people. I didn't know that was an issue?


"you have not seen what has led me into this church. nor have you seen my past. please explain this question alittle more because what led me to this church was miracles."

I have read many of your previous posts... I started coming to these boards around the same time you did. I know much of your story throughout the hundreds of posts. We are not that dissimilar. On the otherhand, I don't believe, from what I've read, that you have had a "miracle" that was 1/10 as real as mine. Much of your previous posts have seemed like conjecture and opinion. You use the miracles as a battering ram to say that you must be right (a weapon). I do not agree. I will be the first to admit that I am probably wrong to some degree, but I'm also very right to another degree.


"this is my point, todays society hates (morality) and this is the exact reversal of the kingdom of god which is (hell) on earth."

Don't let life be your Hell. Live it fully. Turn off the radio or the TV if you don't like it. I don't think it is anything more than a fad. We call it pop-culture. It is where a bunch of idiots all do the exact same thing, then yell out, "I'M BEING DIFFERENT AND I'M BEING MY OWN PERSON!" We all know they are full of it.

Let God's kingdom live inside you, through you, and in all of the things you do. Do not just "say it"... LIVE IT! This doesn't mean endless hours of praying or judging people or defending your own beliefs, it is only a state of living/being. The fact that I don't have to defend my views, but you do, tells me that you believe you have to fight in order for your voice to be heard. Stop struggling and start becoming at peace (becoming one) with your own happiness. You know, once you have really found your truth, you won't need to defend it so strenuously.

"while billlions do live by this, even more billions do not."

So wish those other billions the best of luck and take care of yourself. You are either a shining example or a struggling preacher. The greatest people of all time have drawn crowds, not lured them.


"Now, what is it you said about fatima?"

It doesn't matter too much. There is no reason to get off topic.

A few last words: You put forth so much effort in your discussions, but do you think God needs that? If you were omnipotent, would you need others to fight your battles? I don't think so. God can work at the speed of anti-time and the strength of beyond omnipotential. Your job is to allow people to tune into God's frequency so that they may find the greatness of God, as you have. Become one with peace and you will attract others to your greatest (through God's helping you), but please put away your pulpit.





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