Israel Cries Wolf , page 7

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reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 04:03 PM by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by IAF101
Any sane person would clearly see that it is these Muslim "nations" that have repeatedly attacked Israel unprovoked. First it was in 1948, when they decided to wipe out the recently arrived Jews and failed and then they systematically persecuted any Jews living in their own countries and again in 1967 they were ready to attack the Jews and lost. But these Muslim nations continued their madness again during the Yom Kippur war and tried to attack Israel again and lost again.

You need to do some history research
and I could just as well call the yom kippur war the ramadan war for your info
do your homework
you don't have a good grasp on either reality or history

Originally posted by IAF101
If history is any indication, the Muslims and Arab nations are barbaric and vicious war mongers who dont seem to be able to live in peace. The Israeli attitude towards the muslim nations is one that many countries around the world are learning to do because their tactic is the most effective in dealing with violent muslim nations that you should show no mercy in dealing with these countries because they are not like ordinary human beings.

holy guacamole
you pro-israeli dudes are really scary man

for your information, when you say that many countries are learning the israeli way... welll.... These countries that you speak of have condemned israel for their genocidal actions.

The international community deprecated israel's role in the 6day war and the recent gaza poundage. They turned gaza into a concentration camp.

So many isreali people themselves have protested inside israel itself that their govt's actions were unjust, unbalanced and just plain evil.

the international community even looked down upon the U.S. for supplying this horrible govt. with weapons, as they have again this time.

You need to go read some history books

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 04:13 PM by dooper

reply to post by Mdv2

What am I? That's a fair question, and deserves a fair answer.

I'm just a man that despises hatred of a people, just because they are of a certain ethnic group.

I'm a blonde-haired, blue-eyes Gentile with no connection to Israel in any manner.

I've only known two Jews my entire life, and even that has nothing to do with Israel.

I've seen the hatred toward Israel, I've seen the attacks on Israel, and quite frankly, I'm surprised at the denial of what's really going on by many who just hate Israel, when deep down they hate Jews.

Fine. Someone hates Israel, then they hate Israel. But they are cowards in that they deny that, and repeat many untruths that they picked up by rote.

For over twenty years, I did research, and finally took a year off to write my book on the unalterable principles of warfare. It was my fortune to see and use every single one of these principles to one degree or another in combat.

And these are not my principles. These are the principles which have proven true over three millennia. I just found them and put them together.

It's already made a difference in the US military, and the Israeli military. The Marines have adopted portions, and since have greatly increased their combat effectiveness, by their own public admission.

The US Army has revised its Field Manuals to reflect those unalterable principles, and while much slower to change much, have made incremental changes in the right direction, and these changes were reflected in our "sudden" battlefield successes.

I may seem heartless and cold to some, but I hold the truth dearly, and will fight tooth and nail with those who would distort truth to their own end.

And in the end, the cold truths I learned as a very young man always hold true. Leaders may change, political winds may change, philosophical trends may change, but there are truths that never, ever change.

And it is to these truths that I cling.

[edit on 10-4-2009 by dooper]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 04:17 PM by dooper

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Modern Academia, it would be great if you'd do something worthy of your name.

Israel has no possible reason to attack those around them, as they have been attacked in '48, '56, '67 (I know, but Israel jumped before the Egyptians got all their forces on line - too bad), '73, and on and on, and on with guerilla tactics.

Just for a moment, put your hatred and bias aside, and study the facts. Academia-style.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 04:26 PM by dooper

reply to post by ModernAcademia

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Mass murder?

Your understanding of terminology is severely lacking. You heard someone else toss that term around, you repeat it, and you have no comprehension of what Mass Murder means, do you?

You should go sit in the corner with Harlequin. You have a lot in common.

I said efficiency.

In war, you give some thought to minimizing civilian casualties, but overall, not a whole lot of thought.

When you know what high explosives do, how they work, and their limitations and capabilities, you can't afford to give it much thought.

If the bad guy runs into a house, you blow it. As fast as you can.

Several pile into an ambulance, then too bad for the ambulance. You blow it.

In conflict, and this appears to be your problem, there is no such thing as surgical strikes.

You do the best you can, you kill as many of the enemy as you can, in the greatest number, as quickly as you can, as efficiently as you can, in the greatest concentrations.

That's what it's all about.

It's not nice, it's not pretty, and it's not pleasant.

It's war.

You shoot at me - I'll shoot back with a bigger gun if I have it.

The purpose is to stop the killing. It's going to continue until one side or the other is either unable to kill further, or unwilling to die further.

There is a number that when reached, is when the fighting stops. No one knows that number.

But the faster you reach that number, the faster it's over, the end of the suffering.

If Israel wanted to engage in mass killing, they'd have leveled Gaza. They didn't.

So polish up on your terminology, leave your bias behind, and then you'll start to make sense.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 04:28 PM by The Godfather of Conspira

reply to post by dooper

I'm just a man that despises hatred of a people, just because they are of a certain ethnic group.

Why do you even bother? Everyone can see right through you:

Their fanatical, fundamentalist Islamic leaders are once again compelling them without choice. Their religion? Submission. Islam means submission.

The abilities of the West to wage war are unparalleled in history, and that ability is a combination of characteristics that the Persian and Arab Muslims will never, ever have.

Western nations habitually field bold, disciplined, well-armed armies of considerable power in times of need, and historically, these Western armies, once turned loose, kill like no others on earth.

No one could fight like Westerners.

were the Israelis compelled to take defensive measures to slow the ingress of the Muslim fundamentalists, who were following the words and examples of their "prophet."

As a group, the Gazans have to be some of the most stupid in recorded history.

They bitch about not having sufficient food, enough clean water, no sewer system, and shortages of medical supplies,

I've only known two Jews my entire life, and even that has nothing to do with Israel.

Obviously this where you derive your great knowledge for all things Jewish and the mindset of the Israelis isn't it?

And the penny drops...

If Israel wanted to engage in mass killing, they'd have leveled Gaza. They didn't.

They really held back:

[edit on 10/4/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 04:49 PM by dooper

Yes, they did hold back. I see lots of buildings fallen, and a lot still standing. Some right across the street.

To decide to conduct what you call mass murder, and use artillery, rockets, or bombs, you start at one point, and walk it down the line, leaving nothing standing.

Go back and look at the photos of WWII, and look at the cities where civilians were intentionally bombed.

Nothing but a rubble field.

Israel hit specific targets, and a high-rise parking lot is not exactly a good example of targeting civilians.

You can do better than that.

Even in the best of times, a lot of those buildings look like they're ready to fall down anyway.

Let's just call this what it was: an Israeli urban renewal project.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 05:13 PM by dragonridr

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

Sorry i have to agree with him here if Isreal wanted to wipe out Gaza there wouldnt be a building standing. The problem you see in gaza is there buildings were built in the 50 and 60s and have not had any maintenance an air burst could go off and knock down a building, And quite often collapse on there own. I suggest you look up something called carpet bombing and then try to say the Israelis didnt hold back. They keep worrying about civilian casualties if they were not reluctant to bomb hamas wouldnt use the tactic of hiding near civilians they would build bunkers. However they are well aware isreal wont hit civilian centers and that makes it a great place to hide.Please understand urban warfare counts on the fact that western world doesnt want to cause civilian casualties.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 08:14 PM by skeptic_al

reply to post by dooper

Israel blocked off the all roads and sea ports, nothing in or out.
They then bombed everything in sight using everything from NON laser
guided (although they did have them) to white phosphorus a banned
chemical weapons but they got them from the good 'ol USofA so that
makes it Okie Dokie. This was to ensure as much co-lateral damage
as possible, they weren't interested in getting terrorist but everyone.

The Israeli troupes were shooting at anything that moved. By closing all
access, Israel is in violation of collective punishment on several counts.
Troupes were also in violation of many Geneva conventions. And Israel
once again ignored all UN requests to stop. But then, Israel is not new
to defying official UN resolutions, the list is as long as your arm.
And Iraq had basically defied one UN resolution and the rest is now history.

But, if I was a Pale'n and I had family murdered by them I would definitely
want revenge. And even more so if they had nothing to do with terrorists.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 08:37 PM by dragonridr

Originally posted by skeptic_al
reply to post by dooper

Israel blocked off the all roads and sea ports, nothing in or out.
They then bombed everything in sight using everything from NON laser
guided (although they did have them) to white phosphorus a banned
chemical weapons but they got them from the good 'ol USofA so that
makes it Okie Dokie. This was to ensure as much co-lateral damage
as possible, they weren't interested in getting terrorist but everyone.

The Israeli troupes were shooting at anything that moved. By closing all
access, Israel is in violation of collective punishment on several counts.
Troupes were also in violation of many Geneva conventions. And Israel
once again ignored all UN requests to stop. But then, Israel is not new
to defying official UN resolutions, the list is as long as your arm.
And Iraq had basically defied one UN resolution and the rest is now history.

But, if I was a Pale'n and I had family murdered by them I would definitely
want revenge. And even more so if they had nothing to do with terrorists.

There are so many inaccuracies in these statements its hard to decide where to start. So ill start with the easiest the reason why gaza is isolated is because of hamas do not forget egypt also borders gaza. However they keep there border closed too know why? Because hamas is a bunch of radicals and egypt cant afford to have terrorists running around there country any more then isreal can. If Egypt decided to open its border then they would have to deal with hamas. Take history a step further do you realize this was egyptian territory and isreal offered to return it to egypt and they declined. Even egypt doesnt want to deal with the radicals not even for the territory does this tell you something? Now the whole white phosphorous I repeat is not considered a chemical weapon however its use is restricted its mostly used for flares and create smoke screens is perfectly legal to do so.

However, the use against military targets outside civilian areas is not explicitly banned by any treaty. There is a debate on whether white phosphorus should be considered a chemical weapon and thus be outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) which went into effect in April 1997. The convention is meant to prohibit weapons that are "dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare" (Article II, Definitions, 9, "Purposes not Prohibited" c.). The convention defines a "toxic chemical" as a chemical "which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals" (CWC, II). An annex lists chemicals that fall under this definition and WP is not listed in the Schedules of chemical weapons or precursors.[50]

So before you buy into poor us being played on the world stage by hamas get your facts straight.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 09:13 PM by dooper

In an earlier reply, I stated that the entire exercise of using WP was to draw everyone's attention to the fireworks, to enable Israel to perform their mission in the south against the tunnels.

Did no one see the airbursts of WP? Did no one see how high they had set the fusing? Did no one ever question why they were not hitting ground targets with the WP?

That's because it was used for misdirection.

While everyone was looking one way, the Israelis were about their real business in the other direction.

WP is a chemical, but not a chemical weapon. TNT, C2, C3, C4, RDX, Semtex, and any explosive device you care to mention, including black gunpowder is a chemical.

So if you can get past the fact that modern armies use weapons that consist to some degree of - chemicals - you can cut right through the crap touted by anti-Israeli sources.

Amazing what one can learn here on ATS, isn't it?

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 09:30 PM by Terapin

If Israel is so innocent, why did they deliberately target medical rescue crews? Solders were told to prevent medical teams from rescuing wounded. Evidence of this was collected in the form of written orders given to IDF soldiers. Red cross vehicles, that had been given permission to pass, were targeted and shot at. This is a violation of the Geneva Conventions, one among many.

Air bursts of White phosphorus in urban environments, is also a violation of the Geneva Conventions. It is indiscriminate targeting of civilians. Farms were bulldozed, which is another Violation of the Geneva Conventions, called Collective Punishment.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 09:45 PM by dooper

reply to post by Terapin

Copies of those orders would certainly be helpful, otherwise just one more in a long line of reckless lies and fabrications.

Airbursts of any kind over any terrain during engagement is not forbidden by any law, international or otherwise, just as shelling, bombing, and shooting at armed insurgents is not in any manner forbidden by any law.

Just getting your ass kicked and wanting it to be wrong doesn't make it so.

Farmhouses, used for launching rockets, or a hide to fire from is not a protected structure under rules of engagement, and is a prudent military move.

You want to keep your farmhouse? Don't shoot from it, and don't let others shoot from it.

It's also not nice to fire rockets across a border at civilians without discrimination.

That constitutes an attack.

So when a counterattack is given, then don't whine about the level of the response, the duration of the response, nor the duration of the response.

Smart thing??? Don't shoot at the Israelis! They're getting tired of it!

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 10:21 PM by skeptic_al

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by skeptic_al
reply to post by dooper

There are so many inaccuracies in these statements its hard to decide where to start. So ill start with the easiest the reason why gaza is isolated is because of hamas do not forget egypt also borders gaza. However they keep there border closed too know why? Because hamas is a bunch of radicals and egypt cant afford to have terrorists running around there country any more then isreal can. If Egypt decided to open its border then they would have to deal with hamas. Take history a step further do you realize this was egyptian territory and isreal offered to return it to egypt and they declined. Even egypt doesnt want to deal with the radicals not even for the territory does this tell you something? Now the whole white phosphorous I repeat is not considered a chemical weapon however its use is restricted its mostly used for flares and create smoke screens is perfectly legal to do so.

However, the use against military targets outside civilian areas is not explicitly banned by any treaty. There is a debate on whether white phosphorus should be considered a chemical weapon and thus be outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) which went into effect in April 1997. The convention is meant to prohibit weapons that are "dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare" (Article II, Definitions, 9, "Purposes not Prohibited" c.). The convention defines a "toxic chemical" as a chemical "which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals" (CWC, II). An annex lists chemicals that fall under this definition and WP is not listed in the Schedules of chemical weapons or precursors.[50]

So before you buy into poor us being played on the world stage by hamas get your facts straight.

You really need stop watching the likes of FOX News, it's sanitized by Murduck (jewish).

If you get White Phosphorus on you, it will burn to the bone. It's pretty
permanent.
So by your words "cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans"
so you have admitted to Israel was guilty of War Crimes. And to do indescriminately is also
in violation of war crimes.

You don't have worry about Israel being accused of War Crimes because
the Good Ol' USofA will come the rescue and nothing will ever happen.
Score.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:09 PM by dooper

reply to post by skeptic_al

skeptic, it may help if you read the posts. I clearly am familiar with WP, since I used it to clear bunkers.

I know how it burns. Believe you me!

WP is a chemical. Not a chemical weapon.

And the US doesn't have to rescue Israel from what they use and what they don't use.

WP is allowed in conflict, and the way one should avoid WP, specifically Israel's, is to not start a fight with them.

But if you do start a fight with them, then don't cry when they respond.

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:21 PM by littlebunny

(Time to put my role face back on!)

How freaken ridiculous! Foxnews and Murdock, (He’s English btw!) are the reason he posted his response? Damn dude, you must be outside your mind retarded! And why do you continue to post lie after lie? Nothing Israel did during their last response to what those terrorists did was even remotely war crimes. Just because those who started this fight claim it was so, and just because some in the UN (who openly admit they hate Israel) says it is so, does not make it so!
Israel attacked those who deserved to die. Israel attacked those who hide like cowards among civilians. Israel attacked buildings that house rockets and illegal combatants. Israel killed civilians because they were not smart enough to kick those cowards out of their house/apartment/buildings.

FACT: Iran sponsors and trains these combatants mind you... A clear act of war BTW! So when Israel bombs the hell out of Iran, make sure you completely ignore the fact that Iran trains, supports and supplies Hamas and almost all the other terrorists groups who try to kill as many Jews as they can each and every day. Also, make sure you continue to completely ignore the fact that over 3000 rockets were fired at Israel before they started killing those cowardly terrorists. Oh wait, you already do that!

Oh yeah… that's right... In order for those so called Palestinians to be innocent you must continue to completely ignore (lie about) all the death and destruction they, (the Palestinians), have caused all without cause, and with the complete backing, support, equipment, and permission to kill all the civilian Jews they can from Iran and Syria. Way to go! I mean seriously, you must be outside your mind!

Wow just wow!

--Charles Marcello

(Now lets go see what else you anti-truth, anti-Israel/Jew haters had to say today!)

[edit on 10-4-2009 by littlebunny]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:33 PM by littlebunny

Originally posted by skeptic_al
reply to post by dooper

Israel blocked off the all roads and sea ports, nothing in or out.
They then bombed everything in sight using everything from NON laser
guided (although they did have them) to white phosphorus a banned
chemical weapons but they got them from the good 'ol USofA so that
makes it Okie Dokie. This was to ensure as much co-lateral damage
as possible, they weren't interested in getting terrorist but everyone.

The Israeli troupes were shooting at anything that moved. By closing all
access, Israel is in violation of collective punishment on several counts.
Troupes were also in violation of many Geneva conventions. And Israel
once again ignored all UN requests to stop. But then, Israel is not new
to defying official UN resolutions, the list is as long as your arm.
And Iraq had basically defied one UN resolution and the rest is now history.

But, if I was a Pale'n and I had family murdered by them I would definitely
want revenge. And even more so if they had nothing to do with terrorists.

Why do all you anti-Israel people continue to LIE! For the love of peter, paul and all the other disciples, why!?

Of course Israel blocked all exists points, they were going after terrorists, and that is not against any damn law! Where do you people get this crap?

And Israel most certainly did not bomb or shoot everything in sight. That is just stupid to even suggest such a stupid thing! Israel attacked areas were those rockets were coming from. Those cowards hid them in civilian areas. Why don't you talk about that? Oh that's right because then everyone would see right through your lies. Not to mention Israel has every right to kill all who threaten them... It's called WAR!

As dooper said... If you don't want to bitch about what Israel does, then tell those cowards not to pick a fight with Israel. You can't punch someone in the nose and then cry foul when he breaks your arm and mud stomps your face. Well, I guess if you're a liar you can claim you did nothing to cause the damage you received. Even though the whole thing was captured on camera and the whole world saw you do it. But I know, I know... you're still innocent!

--Charles Marcello

[edit on 10-4-2009 by littlebunny]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:43 PM by littlebunny

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

How Freaken Hilarious! Those pictures you provided absolutely disproves the lie you anti-Israeli/Jew haters post day after day. Do you not see the buildings around those legally hit areas? IF Israel did what you people lie about daily, then there would be entire city blocks destroyed. Not one or two buildings, (legal war targets… sorry can‘t resist legal/illegal in war… that's damn funny too.), while the rest in that busy/heavily populated area remain standing.

BTW Dooper... You're response to these pictures was freaken hilarious as well. Urban renewal! Damn funny!

--Charles Marcello

[edit on 10-4-2009 by littlebunny]

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:43 PM by Terapin

Dooper, let me ask you something in all sincerity. If someone was being oppressed, would it be OK to fight back? Wouldn't it be their moral duty? I would like an answer if you have the time. Was it Ok for the Jews in Warsaw to fight back against Hitler? Was it Ok for the victims of South African Apartheid to resist racism? Was it Ok for people in Vietnam to resist oppressive communism? Should the American colonists have abandoned their fight for freedom from the British king? Should Gandhi have embraced British racism and oppression? Seriously, Is it Ok to desire freedom and fight against oppression? It is a simple question.

As for the rest of your statements, Bulldozing Orange groves, where rockets were never fired from, plowing under strawberry fields, where rockets were never fired from.... How is that a valid military target? The IDF never claimed that rockets were fired from the fields they destroyed. The whole concept of collective punishment, and why it is against the Geneva Conventions was begun as a way to shield the Jews in Warsaw who were victims of collective punishment by Hitler. Destroying crops is by definition, collective punishment, and when you consider that they are not valid military targets then what? There are several videos available of IDF forces shooting West Bank farmers who are trying to harvest their parsley crops, with international rights workers along side witnessing, when the farmers had no weapons, were not any threat, and were on their own farms. Fishermen in along the West bank have been shot at by IDF forces when they have been doing nothing wrong, simply fishing for a living. This is typical behavior for IDF. Shooting civilians from a distance, for no reason. It is well documented.

As for IDF having orders to shoot rescue workers:

"Rules of Engagement: Open fire also upon rescue," was handwritten in Hebrew on a sheet of paper found in one of the Palestinian homes the Israel Defense Forces took over during Operation Cast Lead. A Israeli reservist officer who did not take part in the Gaza offensive believes that the note is part of orders a low-level commander wrote before giving his soldiers their daily briefing.

This has been reported widely from many sources. The International Red Cross filed complaints with Israel and the UN, because after they were given permission to enter and rescue wounded, they were fired upon by IDF soldiers. Not once, but on several occasions, This happened in Lebanon as well so a pattern has been established. This is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. IDF helicopters have also fired upon rescue workers, so it is not any isolated ground forces incident.

As for White Phosphorus: Use in urban areas is illegal because it indiscriminantly targets civilians.

There are legal requirement to take all feasible precautions during military operations to avoid harming civilians. The Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III) prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets, and also their use against military targets in civilian areas. (There is an absolute prohibition of such attacks by air, and a general prohibition on those from the ground ‘except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken’ to prevent civilian casualties.)

Given the high number of civilian casualties from White Phosphorus burns, it is clear that violations occurred. Perhaps this is why the IDF initially denied that ANY White Phosphorus was used. Facts on the ground proved their use and the IDF was forced to retract their denial. WP shell fragments were recovered as evidence of their use.

As for your comments on how some do not believe Israel has a right to exist, and thus determine their positions on events. I believe Israel has a right to exist. I also believe in Human Rights and am against Racism in all it's forms. This is why I am against the racist Zionist regime, as are many Jews. I am not against Israel as a Nation, but I am against their policies and racist ideology. There are many jewish human rights groups in Israel, and around the globe, that are against the actions in Gaza. Stating that if one is against the illegal actions of Israel, that they are thus Anti Semitic, is like saying if you hate Hitler you must hate all Germans. Israel has a long history of violating basic human rights and international laws. There is no excuse. It is called the occupied Palestinian Territories and Israel is the occupying force. The Palestinians are the oppressed. Zionists brought terrorism to the region, and Palestinians have a right to fight for their freedom.

Iran has a legal right to use nuclear power generation. Unlike Israel, they have signed the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty. Why has Israel refused to sign? Why has Israel violated International Law and traded US nuclear weapons technology to other countries?

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:51 PM by littlebunny

Originally posted by Terapin
Dooper, let me ask you something in all sincerity. If someone was being oppressed, would it be OK to fight back? Wouldn't it be their moral duty?

Dooper can respond later... my response is thus...

No, just ask Gandhi... you know, the whole eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind... statement, thingy, that one of you anti-Israel/Jew haters terrorist supporters posted earlier?

(I crack myself up!)

Besides you’re not being serious at all, you’re trying to setup a situation to make a point that don’t even equal what is really going on with Israel and those so called Palestinians/terrorists! Do you really think your tactic is new?

--Charles Marcello

reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 11:53 PM by littlebunny

This deserves reposting... Amen Dooper... I could not have said this better myself! Great POST!

--Charles Marcello