Riot Cops Killed Newspaper Seller At G20

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Reading
how many of those convictions are for murder?

How many police officers murder people? That's not really much of a valid point without any kind of quantification.

I suppose you could compare murder rates of the general population and see what relevance your question has. Apparently, the murder rate is 1.14 PER 100,000 in the UK, so one would expect at least 1 policeman to be convicted of killing someone per year, if they behave the same as regular people. I can think of several cases over the past couple of years of Policeman being sent down for murder/manslaughter/causing death.

Originally posted by Reading
i saw the news tonight about the copper arrested for death by dangerous driving, i believe the only reason he was really prosecuted was because their was not enough space for him to wriggle out of it!

The IPCC officer in charge said himself that the Policemans behaviour and driving were unacceptable and could not be excused. The IPCC got a conviction, but still you seem to refuse that Police are punished when doing wrong. Yet, a simple search on Google can show you cases for every year of Police being convicted.

Originally posted by Reading
what about charles de menezes? they got away with that one pretty well lied about shouting warnings as well, how easy for them to say oh he was antagonizing us by not walking fast enough or there was to much going on

That I agree with you on. That whole thing was a farce, but I suspect there was alot of politics and heavy leaning coming from upon high (cabinet level) so as to not disgrace the Governments anti-terrorism policy......

Originally posted by Reading
fact of the matter is the police acted way out of hand and now they should pay for it just like the rest of us would

And I strongly suspect they will. There is enough public interest to ensure that Justice must be seen to work, even if you believe the system is broken.

Originally posted by Reading
would do you think would happen to me if at the protests i pushed a policeman over and he died of a heart attack 5 minutes later? he wouldnt have touched the floor and i would have been in jail life sentence

You wouldn't do life, at most you'd get 15 for manslaughter, but depending on the circumstances surrounding the death any number of outcomes could arise. An unprovoked assault may land you with a heavy conviction, but if the Policeman was in a tussle with you and you pushed him off, you'd likely only get a few years.

The protestor was murdered and you gave statistics for all convictions didnt you? so really the only the statistics that matter are police who have been convicted for murder right? then you can do a fair comparison? is that not a valid point in your eyes?

i dont refuse to believe the police get punished for what they do obviously they do otherwise you wouldnt be able to give me any statistics about them would you? im just saying i have witnessed the police do many things throughtout my life that i reckon the ipcc would be interested in but i have not reported any, so that means they dont show up in the statistics

you cant just throw statistics around like they are solid truth,they are just numbers to me i was there on the day and i wish you was too you seem to really know what your talking about telling me ill get 15 years and many outcomes might arise depending on circumstances

i know what would happen to me if i did the same thing the cops did to IT statistics dont answer everything if that is what your whole argument is based on then its not really a valid argument to me :-)

to borrow a phrase from the UKPOLICEONLINE forums

lets not comment on this untill the ipcc report is out

Originally posted by Reading
lets not comment on this untill the ipcc report is out

Indeed. Tis what I said in my very first post on this thread

As for the murder/conviction statistics, it isn't really a good comparison to compare convictions for murder only, you need to look at all statistics to get a good picture of conviction rates. The general population of 60 Million is likely to generate alot of murderers, but in a Police population of just over 150,000 nationally the number of murderers alone will be quite small, so you will have a very small sample to work with.

Like I said, I can remember at least one case for the past few years of a Policeman being convicted of either murder or manslaughter.

There was one for last year, I think, where a copper shot his estranged wife with a shotgun for example. There was another done last year as well for multiple rapes and serious assaults on women.

reply to post by stumason

then we more agree then disagree!

i dont know im not gonna pretend to know what im talking about when it comes to statistics and the likes, im not gonna pretend i am not that well educated as others on this site including you, thats not being sarcastic either its just the truth

reply to post by Reading


:lol stop it, you'll make my head grow!

In any case, don't put yourself down. You've held your own on this thread and you have some good points.

I can see why people think the Police get away with things (and in some cases they do), but you have to remember that on the whole they do pretty good job considering what is expected of them and, for the most part, any police I have interacted with have been decent folks. Let's not tar them all and await the outcome of the IPCC investigation.

If it looks like a whitewash when that comes out, then I'll be right there with you screaming about it.

reply to post by stumason
It is true my friend i cannot disagree although i have met more good than bad, i believe they turn cold because it is in the nature of the work .they must see and deal with stuff that most people couldnt.

well since your in my timezone you know how late it is! im off to bed good havin a chat with you mate if more people did that we wouldnt be in the mess we are in huh



[edit on 8-4-2009 by Reading]

Great picture from the Guardian today.



They even accredit the NWO

And here's the picture of the police medic, with baton raised. Caption should be "Dr Pig prescribes...more beatings. Followed by a course of missguided rage.




[edit on 9/4/2009 by Acidtastic]

New post mortem on G20 victim as Met faces claims he was attacked TWICE by riot police

The news comes as witnesses claimed riot police targeted the 47-year-old on two separate occasions.

The newspaper seller was manhandled by an officer 15 minutes before a colleague was videoed striking him with his baton before shoving him to the ground, it was alleged.

Photographer Anna Branthwaite claimed Mr Tomlinson was pushed to the ground and struck twice with a baton by another officer.
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Just popping in from another thread (# 453353; now closed) in which I viewed the video of the incident. At first glance, I see the police walking slowing with or without their police dogs. I did see one police officer rush up from behind the newspaper seller. The man fell down forward but sat up with someone coming to his aide.

Now to put this situation into perspective, I didn't like how the newspaper seller had his hand in his pockets while walking slowly in front of the police. I'd be concerned if someone had his hands in his pocket, looked 'thug-ish' with his outfit and carried his head cast downward. He could have had a weapon on him for all I know.

AND, he wasn't moving out the way of the police. As a matter of fact, I felt he was challenging the police to push Tomlinson to the limit. I'm sorry but anyone with the police RIGHT near his 'personal space' is asking for trouble, which happened at the expense of his life.

I feel dismayed that people continue to have this mentality-the entitlement to a RIGHT of way at all times. I hate to use the following comparison but y'all will understand: Pedestrians must look both way and out of harms way of motorists, right?. Vehicles, like police, are stronger than pedestrians, right? And unfortunately, people sometimes die 'at the scene'.

So the title of this thread should not read as someone killing another. It creates an image in peoples' minds that the police are evil, bad dogs without conscious. It's should have read: Be careful next time. Don't let stupidity kill ya.

[opinionated /rant off]

[edit on 2009-4-09 by pikypiky]

reply to post by pikypiky


he was stumbling around with his hands in his pockets, possibly because he was dissorientated by being hit over the head twice, and bundled to the floor a few minutes prior to that. Plus he's reported to have had a couple of drinks (not that it matters) But I'm sorry, you can't condone the force of the baton strike, or the push, against someone who is walking away from you with his hands in his pockets. Fall over with your hands in your pockets, and it's hard enough to get your hands in the way of your fall. But when you're shoved hard like that, well. You've got no chance. That dirty pig, will go to prison, or there will be proper riots on the streets. because there's alot of people in this counrty, who are pissed as hell at this.

"I don't like the way he was walking with his hands in his pockets" Since when was that an offensive tactic? "Oh no, he's got his hands in his pockets sarge,shall we murder him?"

and it is Murder, or at the very least manslaughter. If I hit someone in a bar fight. They then go home and die of a heart attack, then I go to jail for it. Why should this w#er get away with it just because he's got a uniform on?

[edit on 9/4/2009 by Acidtastic]

another eye witness comes forward.

The man who lifted Ian Tomlinson to his feet after a riot officer hit him with a baton and threw him to the ground told the Guardian last night how the attack unfolded.

Alan Edwards, 34, from Derbyshire said he rushed to Mr Tomlinson's aid because he was worried the officers would continue the violent attack. "I didn't know what they were going to do to him," he said. "I couldn't just leave him there."

Edwards said he had been trapped inside police cordons around Cornhill, near the Bank of England, for about six hours when he first saw Mr Tomlinson. "I was stood on the corner, and basically they'd pushed [Tomlinson] around. He was saying: 'I want to go home. I live down there. I'm trying to get home.'" Mr Tomlinson was obeying police orders to move up the street, Edwards said.

His attention had been drawn to Mr Tomlinson when the street suddenly became flooded with barking dogs.

"I was watching up the street where the dogs were. He came flying towards me and because of where I was he literally came straight at me," he said.

"It's just the way he flew - he went about six feet. I didn't talk to him straight away. I was more concerned police wouldn't get at him. They'd already pushed him over."

Edwards will make a full statement to the Independent Police Complaints Commission today. But he has already given a preliminary description to the police watchdog of what happened. "When I spoke to the lady at the IPCC she asked what happened when [Tomlinson] fell over. I said: 'He didn't fall, he was pushed.'" Edwards's evidence could prove crucial to the criminal investigation into Mr Tomlinson's death. He is the only person to have said publicly he made direct eye contact with the riot officer who assaulted Mr Tomlinson.

"I tried to eyeball him to see if I would remember who he was but he was balacavaed up," Edwards said. "All you could see was his hands and his eyes. He looked slightly crazy. That's why I stood my ground a bit."

After picking up Mr Tomlinson from the ground, Edwards had a brief exchange with him. "I said, you OK, mate? He said: No, I live down there - that's where I live. I can't get there any other way. I'm trying to get home."

Edwards, who had been to demonstrations before, said at the time he had not been "particularly shocked" by the assault because he had seen similar incidents in the past. His message to Mr Tomlinson's family would be: "I am sorry I could not help any more."

www.guardian.co.uk...

Originally posted by pikypiky
Just popping in from another thread (# 453353; now closed) in which I viewed the video of the incident. At first glance, I see the police walking slowing with or without their police dogs. I did see one police officer rush up from behind the newspaper seller. The man fell down forward but sat up with someone coming to his aide.

Now to put this situation into perspective, I didn't like how the newspaper seller had his hand in his pockets while walking slowly in front of the police. I'd be concerned if someone had his hands in his pocket, looked 'thug-ish' with his outfit and carried his head cast downward. He could have had a weapon on him for all I know.

I wasn't aware that there was a Deportment unit in the police. Who'd have thunk it. 'Hands in pockets'? Call the cops!Oh...! This is one of those situations where you could accuse Tomlinson of practically anything. Hands out of his pockets? He could have potentially grabbed a weapon or made fists with which to beat the police. No hands at all? He could have have lost them in a terrorist bomb plot that went wrong. Also, if someone's got their hands in their pockets - and you're aware of that because you're concerned they could - nb: could - have a weapon, then you don't push someone to the floor from behind. The first thing you do is ask them to stop moving and take their hands out of their pockets.

Now whilst I'd rather cut my own throat than wear a pair of tracksuit bottoms and trainers unless actually working out, I'd never go as far as to say trainers, tracksuit and a t-shirt makes someone look like a thug. The irony here being that the only real thug was wearing one of those smart blue police uniforms under his hi-res jacket.

Also, your point about his head being "cast downward" is a nonsense. His head isn't cast downward at all. In the footage it's very clear that he occasionally glances towards the floor, which is hardly unreasonable. Also, it's not as if he was trying to hide his face either by supposedly looking downwards. He's hardly trying to obscure his face and identity because he's conscious of the fact he's doing something wrong.

Just when has having your head cast downwards been 'dodgy' anyway? Surely it's rudimentary psychology - the kind you need no educamashun to pick-up - that head down is far more likely to be submissive and defensive than aggressive. It's almost the opposite of prolonged eye contact.

AND, he wasn't moving out the way of the police. As a matter of fact, I felt he was challenging the police to push Tomlinson to the limit. I'm sorry but anyone with the police RIGHT near his 'personal space' is asking for trouble, which happened at the expense of his life.

I feel dismayed that people continue to have this mentality-the entitlement to a RIGHT of way at all times. I hate to use the following comparison but y'all will understand: Pedestrians must look both way and out of harms way of motorists, right?. Vehicles, like police, are stronger than pedestrians, right? And unfortunately, people sometimes die 'at the scene'.

No, not really. There needs to be adequate reason for moving someone along, particularly with force - whether it's obstruction, suspicion &c. Even in the context of the police kettling and trying to generally control a protest, the fact remains that Tomlinson was moving along, moving away from the police and doing anything but confronting and challenging the police.

A picture began to emerge today of the life of Ian Tomlinson, the newspaper vendor who died after was attacked by a police officer during the G20 protests last week.

On the night he died, the 47-year-old, known as Tommo to his friends, was on his way to watch a football match at the Lindsey Hotel, a hostel near Smithfield meat market on the edge of the City, where he had lodged since October after periods of homelessness.

As a young man of 17, he moved to London from Matlock, in Derbyshire, and worked as a scaffolder, according to friends. At the time of his death he was estranged from his wife, Julia Tomlinson, and had nine children: five girls and four boys, aged between 15 and 32.

According to John, a friend who met Tomlinson 13 years ago when they were living on the streets together, he suffered from a drink problem that he was struggling to beat.

"He did drink a lot and that's why he split up with his wife and kids," said John. "He didn't talk about them much because it made him upset and he'd cry about it. When he drank he would get emotional, but just sad about his family – never violent.

"I never realised he was just attacked like that. You can see he wasn't doing anything wrong. He'll have just been wanting to get back to the hostel, probably for a drink. He wasn't interested in the protests – we never talked about anything like that. He was always truthful and had respect for anyone. He would always get in the middle if someone else was in a fight. He didn't even really swear."

John said Tomlinson had hoped to use the hostel as a fresh start that would get him back together with his family.

"He was earning some money and had even gone to detox to try and get off the drink," he said. "He didn't last very long but he was trying because he wanted to see his family again, for his children's sake. I remember two days before his death we were talking about our lives. He told me not to make the same mistakes he had. Then I heard the news. It was a shock."

Barry Smith, who runs a newspaper stall outside Monument station and knew Tomlinson for 26 years, said: "He was like a brother to me. I never had a brother but he looked after me and would stand up for me."

Max, 67, a friend for more than 30 years, said Tomlinson had a troubled life but was "loved" by the City workers around Monument underground station, where he helped to sell the Evening Standard with Smith.

"If you mentioned Tommo to any of the City workers around there they would know him. He was a popular guy. He was even invited to the wedding of a gardener at a local church."

Selling copies of the newspaper was a passion for Tomlinson, Max said, along with the football team he supported, Millwall. "He would set up his newspaper stall in the morning. He used to get office workers cups of tea. He'd do anything for office workers in the area."

His son, Paul, said: "He was a lovable man. He loved his family and he loved his job on the newspaper stand."

reply to post by stumason


Exactly stumason!

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Most rational people will conclude the same as you. The unfortunate bloke was in the wrong place and the wrong time.

I would not believe unsubstantiated reports by anyone. I do not follow the baying crowds, simply because someone says something is so.

The headlines read ' Repectable press reporter/photographer..' respectable?! Reporters and press photographers?

Yeah, we all know that reporters and press photographers are paragons of society, and they only report the facts don't we?! The absolute truth is printed every day, and no falsehoods and exaggerations, that's why they never lose libel cases do they!

Prison Planet can't have it both ways.

They say the press and media are in with the NWO and cannot be trusted as far as they can be thrown, or in this instance when it suits Prison Planet's apparent agenda, they are paragons of virtue and their word is gospel??

Make your minds up P.P.

The video i saw, was of this unfortunate bloke being shoved from behind by a policeman. He then fell forwards and to the floor.

He then tragically apparently died of a heart attack, the exact cause of which is still being determined. I feel for him and his family.

I will not however, pander to the extremists and rabid antiestablishmentarian types with axes to grind, using this poor blokes' death to further their own agendas.

Time will tell.

spikey.

reply to post by Acidtastic


So, as has been said before..he was an alcoholic, homeless 'Big Issue' seller, selling papers that most nobody wants (legitamised begging IOW) to get money to buy more booze to get drunk again.

He was overweight, probably undernourished, probably had hardened arteries due to decades of perpetual drunkeness, staggering around during a tense and stressful potential riot, and would not comply with police instruction (probably because he was pissed). He get's shoved, by a stressed out copper, who probably assumes he was deliberately trying to provoke them by being uncooperative, falls down and later dies of a heart attack.

I'll say again...it's a terrible shame this bloke wasted his life on booze. It's a terrible shame he is now dead.

But alcoholics (hundreds of thousands of them every year die of similar things).

Again, bad luck. Wrong place, wrong time.
The autopsy will determine the state of his internal organs, and whether or not being shoved was a major factor in his death. My general feeling at this moment of time is, he was on borrowed time anyway. His clogged and scarred arteries were probably going to give out anyway from years of alcohol abuse.

Still a shame though.

spikey.

reply to post by spikey


there's a hell of alot of speculation in that post. You said yourself that you shouldn't take bystandrs words for it, then you go and pull a load of speculative stuff out the hat. And he wasn't a big issue seller, it was the evening standard I think. (not that it's important) The only thing that will make me happy, is a total indipendant enquiry. No IPCC (all ex plod) Take it completly out of the heads of the liars and scum that make up the police state/force.

at the end of the day it was an unprokoked attack, and saying wrong place at thewrong time, isn't an excuse for his death. Not under any law.

[edit on 9/4/2009 by Acidtastic]

Originally posted by spikey
Prison Planet can't have it both ways.

They say the press and media are in with the NWO and cannot be trusted as far as they can be thrown, or in this instance when it suits Prison Planet's apparent agenda, they are paragons of virtue and their word is gospel?

Yes they can.

Thanks to the advent of the internet and blogging - The "press and media" are now composed of Individuals, who have not been co-opted, censored or edited in any way.

Blogs and individuals with websites have been the last bastion of honest journalism in this country and the best source for accurate information and unfiltered/uncensored reporting.

When Prison Planet refers to the 'press and media', as you are indicating they did; they are obviously referring to the mainstream media and newspapers who lied us into war and who active ignored the criminal wrongdoings of the government. Consequently, many of these papers are now going bankrupt after losing customers to the blog-sphere and honest internet news sites.

This is quite obvious from most of the Prison Planet articles pertaining to the issue, and to state otherwise is quite likely misrepresentation - which is wrong.

In cases such as this poor man's murder, the blog-sphere and internet have been far more capable at providing up-to date and accurate informing about the case. Many even allow for comments from the readers, which is far better than 'letters to the editor' and allows a much greater likelihood for exposure and thus, it causes even more reader contribution.

The authorities and governments (municipal, etc) can then read the comments, and use this additional input to aid in decision making.

Perhaps public opinion on the internet will have an effect on how the perpetrators are punished in this case. These officers may have to be convicted so as to 'take one for the team' in order to calm the public down and improve appearances.

[edit on 9-4-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by Exuberant1


precisely, there wouldn't even be an enquiry into his death had people no swamped in with footage and accounts of what they saw. And IMO, the ONLY paper which has covered this fairly, has been the guardian. Other papers are going to smear ITs name in a bid to make it look like the scum pig had no option but to attack him. Which it is blatently apparent that they had plenty of other options. Like, not attacking him. Or, leting him go home. It was a bang out of order assault on an innocent man. Calling him a drunk, or a homeless bum, is only pandering to the police smear tactics. And is morally wrong.

[edit on 9/4/2009 by Acidtastic]

reply to post by Acidtastic


Yes, your right - there is a lot a speculation in the post you are referring to. Isn't that what we are all doing here? Speculating on this issue?

However, my speculations are based on obvious, repeatedly demonstrated medical fact.

If you abuse alcohol for years and years, it's probably going to be a major factor in what kills you.

He was overweight, that's not speculation, it's apparent.

Alcohol does harden arteries. It does cause many, many thousands of alcoholics to die early deaths from heart related diseases amongst numerous others. Medical fact.

Although, yeah - i'm speculating that this was/is the case here. Of course i am, i'm not privvy to the autopsy details, any more than you are. So, what we have left is speculation, based on surrounding information.

Thanks for the correction on what paper he sold. And you're right, it doesn't really matter.

I'm not taking anyones word for anything.
My wife worked in the medical profession for donkeys years, and dealt with alcoholics for a number of those years, so i don't have to take anyone's word for anything regarding the effects on the human body of regular, excessive alcohol abuse.

Is it speculation that he was an alcoholic then? Are you saying he wasn't? Regardless, the autopsy will show the answer to that one way or the other.

But, i take your point that there is a lot of conjecture and speculation surrounding this, and not an awful lot fact as yet. But, that's the nature of debating on an internet forum isn't it?

spikey.

Barry Smith, 55, an Evening Standard vendor who had known Mr Tomlinson for 26 years, said he helped out on the stall every day, starting at 7am.

Speaking through tears, Mr Smith told the newspaper: "Ian was always there with me, from the minute I started work until the end of the day. He had a drink problem but that day he was completely sober and was looking forward to starting work again the next day.

"At 7pm, I had run out of papers so I told him to go home. His last words to me were 'See you tomorrow Barry, if I'm still living and breathing'. It tears me apart thinking about that now."

Highlighted the important bit.
www.timesonline.co.uk...

Omg, some of you people have you even seen the videos? I mean he wasn't threatening or defying the cops at all. He was walking away from the cops and was hit in the legs with a baton and shoved into the pavemnt. You're subhuman if you start defending the cops saying 'he could've had a nuke in his pocket' etc.