"Intelligent Design" is a conspiracy.

reply to post by Gawdzilla

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Funny you say that. WHen I first became a Christian I took it all on faith, later as I began to experience God directly, I moved beyond "faith" and into the realm of "knowing" It was then I became a mystic as very few are experiencing God directly. "Faith" in something and "knowing" something are to different beasts all together.

Besides you have faith I.D. is a conspiracy, you have faith in science, you have faith in evolution, you have faith in yourself to make things happen in your life, you have faith in existence. Not a big difference between you and I other than I experience God and you are aware of this God reality.

Im saying I just laid out before you, using Infinity, statements that if you use your logic and reason on, will lead you towards I.D.

I'm not ramming Christianity or mysticism down your throat. Im saying I.D. is real whether you like it or not. If it has to be hidden, or be the minority view for a while, that's fine. The evolution of I.D. is that it will eventually be a fact.

We'll let the religions themselves argue who's wrong and who's right when science one day concludes that I.D. is fact.

If I.D. is not a fact, then why worry about it? If its false then a false idea's evolution usually leads to its own death.

Thats why its funny how all these mythologies come and go, and yet the idea of God's existence is still as strong today as it was from day 1, that is minus the religions that surround God.

Many scientists want to rid all schools of teaching ID, many preachers want to rid all schools of evolution. There is no conspiracy, its all true, they're all against each other over something that united.

"Besides you have faith I.D. is a conspiracy, you have faith in science, you have faith in evolution, you have faith in yourself to make things happen in your life, you have faith in existence. Not a big difference between you and I other than I experience God and you are aware of this God reality."

No, you WANT me to have "faith", because you're afraid that it's possible to live without "faith". I don't have "faith" in anything. If it doesn't measure up to scientific rigors, it gets tossed. No "faith" needed.

I became an atheist at age seven, when I was asked not return to Sunday School because the preacher couldn't answer my questions about the Bible. I realized it was just a con job to get money for doing nothing, so I never went back.

reply to post by Gawdzilla

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I'm not afraid of anything. Everyone will be and what they will be and do regardless of anything else.

I don't know anyone who doesn't use faith in something, faith that your employer will pay your paycheck, faith that the medicine will work, and in your case you have faith in "scientific rigors" as you just described. Your whole frame of reference is based on scientific rigors.

And yet these rigors are always changing, as they have been from the beginning, evolving, at risk that any new scientific discovery or loop whole can undermine completely and replace the rigors you use now with a completely new set of rigors.

Thats the underlying problem. Science has a bias against God and wants nothing to do with God because science has always mostly been material based and God/I.D. is immaterial. So it was stigmatized and anyone in science that tried to look for God was "kicked out" of the inner circles of research.

Now with the Quantum field, science is evolving towards immaterial which is wonderful because it will eventually prove I.D.

Plus if you didnt have faith in anything, or if there were others didnt use faith or didnt have faith in anything. That wouldnt matter to me. Im not afraid of that because that would just be the natural aspect of a person exploring their own self expression.

U just showed all your "faith" is based on scientific rigors my friend. My faith is based on knowing for sure and experiencing directly I.D.

Which is better? Scientific rigors? Or experiencing and knowing something directly?

In this case science hasn't caught up yet to those that know.

"I don't know anyone who doesn't use faith in something, faith that your employer will pay your paycheck, faith that the medicine will work, and in your case you have faith in "scientific rigors" as you just described. Your whole frame of reference is based on scientific rigors.

And yet these rigors are always changing, as they have been from the beginning, evolving, at risk that any new scientific discovery or loop whole can undermine completely and replace the rigors you use now with a completely new set of rigors.

Thats the underlying problem. Science has a bias against God and wants nothing to do with God because science has always mostly been material based and God/I.D. is immaterial. So it was stigmatized and anyone in science that tried to look for God was "kicked out" of the inner circles of research."

You confuse expectations with faith. Probably deliberately as you are loosing this round rather badly.

Science doesn't need any Great Sky Fairy. There is no step in a scientific rigor that says, "And then a miracle occurs."

Hahahaha,
Well then you have faith in expectations ...or lets switch the word faith into trust. Virtually the same thing, I trust, or I have faith. etc.

You trust the rigors of science, when the foundations of science could at any moment come crumbling down based on a new discovery turning a whole mountain of previously though of "facts" as mere horse crap.

Honestly, Im not losing this round. Its impossible for me to lose this. I experience directly that both I.D. and evolution exist as facts. You only have 1 part of it right and thats because you believe what science tells you.

You can walk away from all this "thinking" you are the victor, not realizing in your victory celebration that it's impossible for there not to be I.D. drunk by your own "virtual" success

Those who walk with and experience God directly don't need any Great Sky Fairy either. You think God is some old guy on cloud flying around and getting mad at people who dont believe in him while sending presents under the christmas tree to those who have been good?

You are sadly hypnotized by the limited pea sized grain of sand amount of knowledge that science tells you.

I just proved to you that infinity is real and exists and is intelligent, self aware, and responsible for all of creation ....and then you turn infinity into child like logic of limiting it to a great sky fairy???? Wow, Im sure Infinity in all its infiniteness had a good laugh at that one.

By the way, miracles are completely natural, repeatable, and can be explained scientifically. Unfortunately, science has a loooong way to go to catch up to miracles.

"Well then you have faith in expectations ...or lets switch the word faith into trust. Virtually the same thing, I trust, or I have faith. etc"

Do you get paid by the fail or in a lump sum?

And, if you wish to redefine words, provide a Fundy Dicty for the rest of us.

Sorry Gawdzilla,
You lost me here. Yeah ur right faith and trust are different. Keep existing with all your hopes in rigors of science ....see how far that gets you in self realization, and character building, thoughtfulness,and awareness.....

sorry to disaapoint but ID and evolution are both here to stay, they need each other and are married to each other. If ID repulses you, be ready to repulsed the rest of your life....its not going anywhere. Also dont be scared....it wont take over just yet...and not without its wife evolution.

its too bad you got me mistaken with regular Christians.
Christians = faith, belief, hope
Christian mystics = knowing, directly experiencing, complete trust

Big difference my friend. You speculate that ID is false, I know its not

Of course ID is here to stay, until humans grow a brain anyway. Bluster about the permanence of this religious intrusion into the science classroom is not justified, however. Most of the world views the fundamentalist, misogynistic, and racist views of "Intelligent Design" with disdain at best, and revulsion at worst.

This is a very good point. If you are going to teach the concept of a potential Intelligent Design behind creation - why not offer alternative religious views as well? Why stick to one philosophy or train of thinking.

I think I would actually support this idea. If you are going to teach my children that Intelligent Design is a possibility, then expose them to all religious points of view as possibilities as well.

However the problems would begin to arise if you were to present the concept of Intelligent Design as provable scientific fact. As far as I can see there is no absolute scientific evidence for an Intelligent Design.

Believe me, if I am wrong about the scientific evidence of Intelligent Design, please let me know.

"Believe me, if I am wrong about the scientific evidence of Intelligent Design, please let me know."

ID has been debunked endlessly. It's just another religious attempt to control your life. IDer's dream of the day when the only book used in schools is the BuyBull.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...I'll tell you what, if you can prove sciemtifically, mathematically, factually that ID has been proven false, I'll humbly concede you the victor and give you my entire savings account.

That would have been the biggest news in science in the last 1,00 years!!!!

I can see the headline now: NEWS FLASH, Science Proves ID False!!!!

HAHAHAhahahahaha, oh man I needed that, laughter is good for the soul.

It seems you have this inner hatred and disgust with organized religion, something that science itself resembles. Yet there are truths in them both.

I bet if you met the actual God, who stares you in the face daily, you'd be rather impressed.

Please do provide the correct link where I.D. was officially proven wrong. Last time I heard, science has never thoroughly investigated I.D. because of their natural disgust with he idea and possibility of a God .....who is like a plague to most limited and "boxed in" scientists

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...I'll tell you what, if you can prove sciemtifically, mathematically, factually that ID has been proven false, I'll humbly concede you the victor and give you my entire savings account.

That would have been the biggest news in science in the last 1,00 years!!!! "

They hid that kind of stuff in books. You might try reading more than one. Or you can just go to talkorgins if you want your world shattered.

The biggest ever discovery is hidden in Books???? What are these books that prove 100% that ID is a sham??

I feel like im talking to a little kid ......you don't see that your so offended and you hate ID so much that you are just like the religious fanatics that hate and are offended by evolution. Your in the same basket case.

whats the point of me going to talkorigins???? Its gonna be a bunch of closed minded you's on there all trying to protect the same limited and dying view point. Ur wasting ur time

It would hardly be the biggest discovery ever. It is simply the debunking of your pet theory.

I find ID disgusting, true.

You're right, there's no point sending you talkorgins. There's just a bunch of science there, and you would never, ever, consider science to be useful in the Jihad against science the IDers are fighting.

Say hi to the dodos for me.

Too bad Einstein, Newton, Tesla and Galileo didn't meet you. They could have just gone to one of your lectures instead of spending their lives working on these "Simple" things.

reply to post by ChemBreather

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You're such an interesting troll. Except not. You know as well as I do we are not FROM MONKEYS but from the same ancestor of monkeys.

Think a bit.

We are in the prescence of an "Illuminated One"

Is it only through Deep Christian Belief that one can attain the wisdom you posess.

Oh great disciple, enlighten me. How do I attain your level of knowledge and what is my purpose in life?

hahahaha, spiritual enlightenment doesn't make me any better that you. It makes me do whatever it takes to not be like any of you, to not "be" at all, to merge the drop back into the ocean.

So who am I??? Nobody that matters or has significance in the grand scheme and I like it that way.

I had to go beyond Christian belief to experience God. You people are all soooooo stuck on "faith" and "belief" and here I am screaming at the top my lungs saying that you can reach states called "knowing" and "experiencing" that make both religion and science(also religious) look like a bunch of children.

How do you attain my level of knowledge? Wisdom is better....Seek, seek directly if there is God ...not by studying science(who doesn't seek nor study God) and not by religion(which postulates dogmas) ....seek for yourself, ask, ask who are you, what are you, self inquiry, read, meditate and then you will find God right in front of you, inside of you, inside of all things and all things inside of God. You will know this, see this, feel this, love this, sense this.

Your purpose in life is to be. To exist and to evolve every aspect of yourself especially spiritually speaking. Even if you never have anything ever to do with spirituality or religion ....you are inherently a soul having a human experience so no matter what we are all, already spiritual.

Your purpose is to ask, to seek, to wear different masks, when you were a child you were trouble free, in the now, being, having fun. You grew up and threw those awesome simplicities out the window ...all in favor for logic and reason.

You use logic and reason to realize that logic and reason are limited. Go beyond all these games and you will find God.

Even Einstein was a mystic. Look at this quote:

"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

I was once dead, most others walk around dead, without the awe and the mysticism he describes. He's describing God here ...in a transcendent format. The Godfather of science had huge breakthroughs because he experienced God and could translate things scientifically with this existence in mind.

ID is real without religion, without anyone knowing it, whether we exist or not, whether we argue it or not. ID's origins are beyond our comprehension and so no wonder must dont see it. It can only be experienced partially. Your not gonna get with logic and reason even if I gave you a mathematical equation to prove it.

"ID is real without religion, without anyone knowing it, whether we exist or not, whether we argue it or not. ID's origins are beyond our comprehension and so no wonder must dont see it. It can only be experienced partially. Your not gonna get with logic and reason even if I gave you a mathematical equation to prove it."

Good, lovely, fine. Just don't try to teach that woo in science class. Mythology is down the hall and under the bleachers.

reply to post by Gawdzilla

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But you dont get it ...to teach only evolution is not fair. If you only teach a child one side the coin then thats bias right there. Kids should know about the whole evo vs. ID argument.

Children should be able to know every aspect of evolution, not just in species but also personally, emotionally, physically, mentally, intelligently. They should also know every aspect of ID, mysticism, islam, Xtianity, Atheism, etc.

And then we let them choose. We dont force them one way or another the way both religion and science is trying to do. We give them a wonderful and inspiring atmosphere and let them make the conclusions. Even if like me, they see both of them exist, or simply "believe" that both exist. Let them have that self exploration of these ideas.

Thats why I said you are just like the religious ID'ers. You are trying to force only evolution to be taught, and they are trying to teach your opposite. Both sides are unfair.

It would only be fair if both are taught and we let them come to there conclusions, and we dont stigmatize a high school graduate entering a science undergraduate program in a premier university for believing in both or believing just ID.

And we dont stigmatize a visitor to a chapel or a mosque for unbeleif or for only believing in evolution.

These are the problems. The solution is both sides taught, no bias, free will and a good atmosphere for children, and no stigmatizing people for their beliefs even if one side really is right and the other is wrong. No matter what