The sole consideration is the SOUL consideration.

In my opinion, the real question is not whether you subscribe to creation or evolution, but whether intelligent input was required to result in what we have presently. Forget what religion teaches you, forget what science teaches you. Now this isn't the easiest thing to do, because most of the ideas you have are built using some degree of external input.

To answer this question within the above framework I think we need to consider consciousness or the soul. If there is no consciousness, there can be no intelligence, therefore any changes that occur must be purely random. As soon as consciousness comes into being, so to does intelligence and with it, some sort of input in some capacity, to the direction of the change.

It is quite clear to me, consciousness exists now, therefore changes are intelligently guided to some extent at this moment. So at what point did consciousness come into being?

Do individual atoms have consciousness? If so, they must have the capability to control their destiny to some extent. Are they governed by rules dictating their behaviour in different conditions? How did these rules come into being? If rules exist, possibilities are limited and randomness is eliminated.

Food for thought.

Side Note: I have no doubt that my efforts will be in vain and this thread will unfortunately degenerate down the same path as all the others in this forum. No matter how hard you try to present a balanced logical argument you will always be pidgeon-holed as being either religiously biased or scientifically biased.

The thing that gets me with this is that if we have a soul, it must be connected to us in terms of energy and that means a frequency of some kind. Of course science must of tried to find this freqency. So what would atheists think if science did find a freq connected to us?

It is quite clear to me, consciousness exists now, therefore changes are intelligently guided to some extent at this moment. So at what point did consciousness come into being?

"Consciousness" I understand is "Awareness"....

"Consciousness" or "Awareness", I suspect developed in the very, very, early stages of existence ...

Perhaps "Awareness" was "The Spark" as to say.

This would then provide "Intelligence" at some point. (Not the so called Intelligence of Humankind though) or at least provide the components.

This awareness may be the cause of all and the Production of an environment/environment...

1. Awareness....

2. The desire to know....

3. The ability to store experiences in Awareness...

4. The ability to process this...

5. The ability to present such an experience both in Consciousness and of Consciousness...

All things come from discovery and Conceptual thought... And the ability of being able to manifest such a concept...

And the Intelligence of Humankind is the result of the "Interface" with what we call "Consciousness" or "Awareness" ???

Do individual atoms have consciousness?

Remember the theories of Atomic Science are only a human expression of understanding, of our supposed Environment.

No discredit to Science Intended....

How or what sort of tests do we apply to this, as Our theories of Atomic Science may not be sufficient to obtain reliable conclusions.

If so, they must have the capability to control their destiny to some extent. Are they governed by rules dictating their behaviour in different conditions?

There are definitely rules or laws to the behaviour!

How did these rules come into being?

By Design... And the, as a result of Processing, perhaps not yet understood by Science....

Science does Not claim to be All Knowing... Far from it LOL

If rules exist, possibilities are limited and randomness is eliminated.

No!!! Not so.....Take gambling or lucky chance...
Even the experience of Competition etc...

There are Still Rules or Laws involved...

Food for thought.

More than humankind realises or can know!!!

Side Note: I have no doubt that my efforts will be in vain and this thread will unfortunately degenerate down the same path as all the others in this forum.

Sadly I suspect you will be correct ???

But I still hope it won't....

No matter how hard you try to present a balanced logical argument you will always be pidgeon-holed as being either religiously biased or scientifically biased.

Sadly yes, but why is this the case???

Perhaps humankind fears the possibility of coming Second ???

Or finding they are Not in Control as they believed to be ???

Perhaps humankind can't handle the knowledge, they are Not really free at all ???

But not being in Control, may be a blessing in disguise...

Just imagine if the so called World leaders were in Control of All...

Man then you and I, are up the creek without a paddle, or in the proverbial Fertiliser ??? LOL..

There is obviously some sort of Development, taking place but What ???

Perhaps it has Nothing to do with the Universe, or Human Morality, which is usually a fast anyway ???

But has to do with something totally different, than the majority of the human race is aware of ???

I have my own thoughts on this, but humankind hates what I have as an explanation, and has proven to be, too involved and complex for most to comprehend....

One day I hope to prove my understanding, but that day has Not come yet...

I don't claim to have all the answers but I do have a few basic answers that have nothing at all to do with Religion but involves pure Mechanics and a little Awareness....

What you don’t seems to realize is that how can you answer a question like this when you don’t know who you really are, i.e. I am the thoughts or the mind? Is the mind sole responsible for my feelings or is it something else. What is the mind, in my view just a collection of thoughts or is something behind it which in my opinion has difficulty to grasp this very thick physical world which we all live in.
One way to know what is behind our mind is to make the mind stop functioning by feeling or thoughts, then what ever is behind our mind will take control and certainly show itself in every day attitude.
If you try to answer the question in thinking that you are your thoughts and mind then you will not be able to see the truth (like the scientist or religious peoples), it will be like the rider and the horse; you think that the rider and the horse is one. In our case as human it is not so, the rider and the horse is 2 different aspect of the correlation.
This is the ultimate achievements in this world, taking control of the thoughts process, where by the new world will show you that you are not this defected shell made of flesh and bone but something supreme in essence.
Kacou

Originally posted by -mytym-
I think we need to consider consciousness or the soul.

Do you mean they are one and the same thing?

Where is your soul when you are unconscious or asleep?

If there is no consciousness, there can be no intelligence

In that case, what of intuition? And how do you explain those strange moments when you wake from a deep slumber with the answer to a question you've been struggling after all day suddenly present in your mind?

As soon as consciousness comes into being, so to does intelligence and with it, some sort of input in some capacity, to the direction of the change.

Are you sure? A kitten may be conscious, but does it have intelligence? A computer can be intelligent - can even learn from experience - but is it conscious?

It is quite clear to me, consciousness exists now, therefore changes are intelligently guided to some extent at this moment.

Could you explain how you reach this conclusion? I don't see how consciousness automatically implies free will.

In fact, I'm don't even understand how you're so sure consciousness exists. Could you please elaborate a little?

In all honesty, I don't really think the soul and consciousness are interchangeable, merely that they are closely related. However I couldn't resist the pun opportunity presented for the thread title.

I some up intelligence as being the capability to make an independant decision and follow it through. A cat can decide to jump over the fence, and then go ahead and jump over the fence. This is intelligence in my opinion. A computer can make no decisions of it's own accord. Any decisions it appears to make are the result of programming rules put i place by its maker. This is not intelligence in my opinion.

Far from being void of conciousness when you sleep, I think this is where your conciousness is at its most acute. It therefore no surpise that you can come up with solutions to your most difficult questions. There is some real truth to "Sleeping on it."

Free will implies the ability to make independant decisions and carry them out. I consider this intelligence. In order to realise you have free will, you must be aware that you exist in some capacity. I call this consciousness. The computer does not possess free will, however it abides by rules programmed by its maker. The decision was made to include rules into the programming. The maker has free will instead of the computer. Thus consciousness exists.

Without rules, the entire spectrum of possibilities is in play. A truly random scenario. Once rules are put in place, the possibilities decrease, predictability increases and the randomness is compromised. Although it may seem random, gambling on a horse race is anything but. If it were truly random, the bookies odds would be the same for every horse. Gambling on the poker machines also follows rules. These are the same rules that computers follow. They are programmed into the machine by their maker to give the illusion of randomness, however behind the scenes they follow an the laws of an algorythm that one is capable of predicting.

Originally posted by -Astyanax-

I know your answer was Not directed at myself, but let me introduce the perception of some others...

This is Not intended to be in opposition to your own thoughts, but rather some others, that you may, or may not wish to comment on.

Clearly you are employing an unconventional definition of consciousness.
A conscious person is aware of his or her surroundings; a sleeping person is not.

Your External Quote;

1. the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

This is reliant on the Identity of; "Ones own Existence" (Body or Entity being being the human form, or Not the human form, but instead a Conscious Entity, that experiences the human form).

2. the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual or of an aggregate of people: the moral consciousness of a nation.

3. full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life: to regain consciousness after fainting.

This is subject to what the person/s interpretation on what the "Mind" actually is???

Life does Not walk, it is the human form that walks, but this is subject again to identifying what "Life" actually is???

Is it the "Biological Form", or is it the "Consciousness" that experiences that form The Life???

4. awareness of something for what it is; internal knowledge: consciousness of wrongdoing.

5. concern, interest, or acute awareness: class consciousness.

6. the mental activity of which a person is aware as contrasted with unconscious mental processes.

7. Philosophy. the mind or the mental faculties as characterized by thought, feelings, and volition.

—Idiom
8. raise one's consciousness, to increase one's awareness and understanding of one's own needs, behavior, attitudes, etc., esp. as a member of a particular social or political group.

Perhaps this is where the meaning or definition of "Consciousness" should be reviewed....

If the human form is said to be "Conscious", then this is Not really true....

The Human form is Not, and can Not, and will never be "Aware" or "Conscious" of anything...

Not even the brain hears or sees or experiences any of the 5 senses but rather it is The "Consciousness" that is "Aware" through the brain!

Does your Hand or Your Foot or any other part of your anatomy, know your "Identity" or "Conscious" State???

It is Time for humanity to realise that it is Not the human form, that is "Conscious", but rather it is an Entity, that is Non physical, that is experiencing the human form.

Yes we know that many try to convince others, that the human form is Conscious or Aware but the fact remains that there is not a single part of the human form that is aware!

Check out your own body, and test this for yourself...

Is your body aware of "You"???

Or is it "You" that is "Aware" or "Conscious" of the body???

I guess it is You and Not the Body???

But what really is The "You" or The "Me" ???

As for Myself, when I refer to "Me", "I" am Not referring to the human form, but rather to my "Conscious" Entity which like many, are Not of the Universe but are merely experiencing this Universe.

I am Not referring to any religious thoughts, when I say......

On death it is only the human form, that becomes detached, but the "Conscious Entity" remains, as it is Not material, nor is it a part of the material world (so called), but only experiences the material World, via the brain...

(The brain being the Encoder/Decoding System, between the Non Material world, of "Consciousness" and the Environment, the "Consciousness" is experiencing at that time...)

This knowledge I discovered, was the result of having been declared "Brain Dead", by medical staff in late 1973.

I was pronounced "Brain Dead" for a period of time, that was longer than 30 minutes.

But during this time, to "Me" I was very, very, "Conscious", but I experienced Nothing at all of this Universe, but an entirely different type of world, Nothing at all like a Universe.

And in that World, "thought" was Not the Method of Communication but rather the communication was Awareness without Thought but was Visual at the same time.

"Consciousness" is The "Observer", and Not the Observed!

Thought is merely the translation process of the Brain and just a One component in the experience of this universe....

So by definition (by entities experiencing this universe), I was said to be Unconscious, which I guess is correct in that I was Not aware of this Universe...

But on the other hand, the medical staff and others, were Not aware of me being "Conscious" of where I had returned to, that is the Conscious World "I" came from....

In the past it has been general, for many to reject the Idea, due to the lack of identifying the Origin of "Awareness"/"Consciousness" or knowing the True Self "Consciousness".

So what I am trying to say, is it comes down to each of our own Identification of what is "Aware"....

Our Consciousness???

Or the Human form ???

For me personally, It is My "Consciousness" that is "Aware" and Not the human form and environment, "I" am "Experiencing"...

But perhaps many, don't see it this way, but I know, some agree with me on this.

Perhaps we are Not all the same, but are of different origins...

Some are alive (Aware), some are Not, and are just Automatic in response, as being just part of a processing system....

As far as I know, computers, as we know them today, do Not posses Conscious, as in the "Consciousness" of "Life".

But then again, you may see Life in an entirely different Context, than some others???


[edit on 12-4-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

Hey anything is possible. Perhaps the cat is being completely controlled by a third party, in which case the third party is demonstrating the intelligence to carry out the fence jumping activity. Perhaps the cat is exercising an automatic instinct which compels it to jump the fence, in which case it is following laws creating by its maker, thus the maker is demonstrating the intelligence. In any event intelligence seems to be a pre-requisite to carry out this task in some capacity. In turn I might wonder how you can be so sure that the medusa is void of intelligence? I'm sure that file-sharing protocols are heavily dependent on programming that the protocols themselves did not develop, but like you say, maybe I just don't know computers?

I have been asleep many times, yet still aware of my surroundings. The definition of conciousness I'm employing here is being aware of one's existence.

This response to you is an example of free will. I chose to respond and here it is! As I've just demonstrated, I have free will, thus am not obliged to abide by the rules programmed by my makers. The computer does not. It may appear to disobey orders on occasions, when in fact the misunderstanding of how the programming works is creating the illusion.

Like I indicated at the beginning of this post, anything is possible, but at the present time I am comfortable with my current stance on the matter.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
I know your answer was Not directed at myself, but let me introduce the perception of some others...

Are you sure you want to do this, Traveller? There's a reason why I mostly leave your posts alone.

Consciousness 1. the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

This is reliant on the Identity of; "Ones own Existence" (Body or Entity being being the human form, or Not the human form, but instead a Conscious Entity, that experiences the human form).

You are simply saying that consciousness is the consciousness of consciousness. Meaningless circular wordplay.

2. the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual...

3. full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life...

This is subject to what the person/s interpretation on what the "Mind" actually is???

No. Words have specific meanings that are arrived at through a historical, consensual process. You can't twist them to mean whatever you want them to mean. Dictionaries exist for a purpose.

Life does Not walk, it is the human form that walks

Meaningless nonsense again, I'm afraid. Life walks, crawls, swims, flies, drifts and stays (literally) rooted to the spot.

This is subject again to identifying what "Life" actually is???

Clearly, its mode of locomotion (or lack thereof) will depend on whether it's plant life, animal life or bacterial life. In this you are correct.

Is it the "Biological Form", or is it the "Consciousness" that experiences that form The Life???

Not all biological forms are conscious, which answers the question unambiguously.

If the human form is said to be "Conscious", then this is Not really true. The Human form is Not, and can Not, and will never be "Aware" or "Conscious" of anything. Not even the brain hears or sees or experiences any of the 5 senses but rather it is The "Consciousness" that is "Aware" through the brain! Does your Hand or Your Foot or any other part of your anatomy, know your "Identity" or "Conscious" State??? It is Time for humanity to realise that it is Not the human form, that is "Conscious", but rather it is an Entity, that is Non physical, that is experiencing the human form.

Dualist speculation without the faintest grain of evidential support. There is, I aver, no such entity. There are no nonphysical entities. Prove me wrong.

This knowledge I discovered, was the result of having been declared "Brain Dead", by medical staff in late 1973.

You were hallucinating as a result of oxygen deprivation and physical trauma. Like some foolish LSD experimenter of the Sixties, you mistook your trip for reality. It happens, no big deal. But it's 2009 now. You've been away longer than Rip van Winkle. Time to snap out of the dreamworld and smell the coffee.

Originally posted by -mytym-
Hey anything is possible. Perhaps the cat is being completely controlled by a third party, in which case the third party is demonstrating the intelligence to carry out the fence jumping activity.

Not necessarily. The third party need be no more than a cause or a complex of causes. Intelligence is not required for this.

Perhaps the cat is exercising an automatic instinct which compels it to jump the fence, in which case it is following laws creating by its maker, thus the maker is demonstrating the intelligence.

But what are its makers? I argue they are evolution and individual experience. Neither can be called intelligent.

In any event intelligence seems to be a pre-requisite to carry out this task in some capacity.

On the contrary, it is entirely unnecessary.

In turn I might wonder how you can be so sure that the medusa is void of intelligence?

Well, here's a diagram.


No brain as you can see, and the thing (depending on species) can be as small as 1mm in height. Not a likely prospect for consciousness, somehow.

I'm sure that file-sharing protocols are heavily dependent on programming that the protocols themselves did not develop.

Yes, indeed, just as our mental activity is entirely dependent on programming and processes we ourselves did not develop.

I have been asleep many times, yet still aware of my surroundings.

A remarkable talent.

The definition of conciousness I'm employing here is being aware of one's existence.

Fine by me. But since you can't be aware of anything without consciousness, this definition is somewhat tautological.

This response to you is an example of free will. I chose to respond and here it is!

That is how it appears to you. However, your choice was dictated by three factors, none of which are under your control: circumstances, inheritance and personal history (conditioning). You think you 'chose' to reply; in fact, there was never a chance of your doing anything else. The dice were loaded in advance.

Like I indicated at the beginning of this post, anything is possible, but at the present time I am comfortable with my current stance on the matter.

So am I with mine. This is a philosophical discussion, not an attempt to proselytize.

Interesting Thoughts, but back to reality again... LOL..

To some, death is a very fascinating subject sand Not one to flippantly discard..

I guess you will find your own Reality when You Die.

I do Not have to prove anything, nor do I desire to prove anything to you, but rather leave it up to you, to experience your own death and learn from that experience yourself first hand... LOL

No offence intended, quite the opposite in fact...

You may find it different than you imagine... LOL..

Non of us, can escape this reality of experiencing death.

I am just thankful for the Experience of death, and don't have to guess what happens, as many others do, having not been there yet.

There is Nothing at all to fear of the experience, in fact you shall find it quite Educational I suspect.... LOL.

At this stage, you are only able to misrepresent my statements, according to your own beliefs/disbeliefs and preconceptions about death...

The world is full of self acclaimed Experts on Death, that have Not experienced death themselves yet, or have only been an observer, of others passing through the death experience...

Many of these people lay down and set in concrete, what happens or does not happen, according to their own suppressed fear of the subject.

I guess some may be a little disappointed, when their time comes to die, and are Not able to dictate what happens to themselves during this experience...

The first thing that happens, is that all those years hard work and proclaimed possessions, and beliefs, etc are taken from you, as you are unable to own anything of this world, or change anything about this world...

Unfortunately this is the most difficult stage for most, but this is just a part of that lesson, learning about your own reality.

Your body, family and friends are then taken from you...

This also is a very painful part of the experience for many...

The only thing left, is your "Conscious" state.

(This State of "Consciousnes", you will discover is Not reliant on your human form, but exists in something else, Not generally known while experiencing this environment, involving humanity, unless you have experienced death and are able to tell the story.)

Now you have nothing to distract you from leaning of your Reality...

You can't even argue against any entity at that time, as you have nothing to argue with....

But then, you shall discover the most valuable of all???

Yes this thread is about the Soul.

Death is one thing, that we all have in common... LOL..

But it is only learning about the things that really matter, and that your material experience, is very short and is only a very, very, small part of a huge, huge experience....

What is experienced, and learnt in the death experience (so called), is worth far more than anything else that you can imagine...

Most can't face the possibility, that death is Not the End of Consciousness, as they are unable to control what happens, or for that matter, what happens next...

But perhaps the fact that you or I, can Not control what happens, is a blessing, as you or I, if we were able to take charge of the process, we would probably get it all wrong anyway, due to our Ignorance.. LOL..

At least I can put my trust in the processes, that take place in the All, including the experience of Death.

Prove to me, that I was Hallucinating if you are so convinced...

But your whole argument is only based on the fears and beliefs of humankind and Not Reality.

Or are you just terrified of your own imminent death experience???

And need to believe in your own self acclaimed human Logic to allow you cope with life???

What you expect to happen in death, won't happen, and what you Don't expect, shall happen...

But I am sure, that your own experience through death, will be quite educational and fascinating to say the very least...

Why fear death???

You can't change anything! LOL...

I am sure you will get all kinds of explanations, from biblical to scientific, however if you want to know what they look like, i can show you. The soul is the detachable immortal part that retains our essence after the body dies. There are billions of these disembodied spirits among us, some can even interact with us. The living , for the most part, tend to disassociate with them. Immortality can be a terrible thing, forever is a really vast amount of time. Every creature that has ever lived has the basic drive to reproduce so a vast amount of immortal souls are being constantly pumped into the finite reaches of our Universe. I am not suggesting that we can change anything, it is designed that way. We gather a lifetime of energy of those things we have consumed. Those living things lives are the charge in our "batteries." Like a crop, we have ripened and came to fruition, we now await the reaping.

Originally posted by -mytym-
consciousness or the soul

These are not the same thing... I don't think.

Soul today is a fuzzy concept, so I think you need to strait out define what you are talking about clearly and concisely.

But in the traditional idea of the soul, I don't think it exists. I can't see a mechanism for one to develop naturally, plus I can't exactly see a deity granting souls to specific organisms, there would need to be some form of arbitrary set of requirements for an organism to be eligible for one, so where is that? Do dolphins have souls? They are intelligent. Other apes? Dogs? Large birds? Small mammals? Insects? Plants?

Plus I don't think he'd need or want to give us one.

Reply to Astyanax

Look, Matrix: you're the one who wanted to wrestle, so don't you come over all nasty when you take a fall. The stubborn truth is that you have not provided a single reasoned argument, leave alone any proof, that would leave anyone inclined to believe what you say. If that's okay with you, post your views and welcome, enter arguments about them and welcome, too. But if it isn't okay, well - either don't post, or don't spit and snarl when people scoff. That may not be in the ATS terms and conditions, but it is most certainly in the spirit of them. Deny ignorance, remember?

????????????????????????

On the contrary I was being a little light hearted toward you, and in No way being as you suggest....

Believe it or Not, the World, myself or even Life are Not against you, as you presume/claim...

Sorry if you misunderstand my comments....

I was certainly Not saying I am dead, but rather, I am very much alive and enjoy staying that way, even beyond what you call death...

I hope sincerely (with all my heart), that you too remain Eternally "Conscious" or Alive, even when the human form you are experiencing, is buried as all flesh is, at some point of the experience....

I am Not against you, but rather for you....

Again I am sorry that you do Not understand my comments....

So please do not curse those, you disagree with or can Not understand....


[edit on 14-4-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]