Study claims 'highly engineered explosive' found in WTC rubbl

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


So is this fuel truck fire oxygen starved as well?

Originally posted by trueforger
reply to post by mmiichael

 

It starts with a real investigation of 9-11.Then when we find out it was lies we were fed the fog of cognitive dissonance dissipates,we will see these other conspiracies clearly.

But you and people like you will never consider ANY investigation "real" unless it has your preconceived outcome as it's conclusion.

Don't you understand how asinine that line of thinking is?



[edit on 14-4-2009 by Fremd]

reply to post by Fremd

I thought calling names was verboten?Assenine?As opposed to elephantine.perhaps?With the lack of actual steel evidence(whisked away by the prime suspect)what we have is enough to show the claimed story is impossible.Then,by the slightest of chances,the tiniest of sample of dust gets past the net of omission of evidence and shows the inexplicable(except by mental gymnastics)Then what? Do we just drop it because the chain of custody is not secure?Ad hominums exist for those with no actual argument anymore.It is thou who will not accept that before thine eye.The particles are claimed by Jones to be what we expected all along.Since when does a hunch confirmed make it wrong?

Originally posted by trueforger
reply to post by Fremd

 

I thought calling names was verboten?Assenine?As opposed to elephantine.perhaps?With the lack of actual steel evidence(whisked away by the prime suspect)what we have is enough to show the claimed story is impossible.Then,by the slightest of chances,the tiniest of sample of dust gets past the net of omission of evidence and shows the inexplicable(except by mental gymnastics)Then what? Do we just drop it because the chain of custody is not secure?Ad hominums exist for those with no actual argument anymore.It is thou who will not accept that before thine eye.The particles are claimed by Jones to be what we expected all along.Since when does a hunch confirmed make it wrong?

I seriously understood very little of that...it's asinine first off, not asseniene.....you're talking about 6 different things in one wall of text.
Nobody was calling anyone a name .... nobody can be a "asinine" You say "the particles are claimed by Jones to be what we expected" then y ou say "When does a hunch confirmed make it wrong"

What has been confirmed?
That a material that is used in demolitions was found in the waste at ground zero?

That means nothing. Now, if they had found actual demolition material...then yes, you'd have an argument....but since there isnt (not even a shred) then you don't....

As i said before,

Chemicals in Orange Juice concentrate mixed with the right things can be used to make Napalm. Does that mean when a grocery store burns down, that the fire fighters are going to find proof that the building was napalmed?

No. It doesn't.

Find a new hunch, because this one has no merit.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Fremd]

Originally posted by Fremd

Chemicals in Orange Juice concentrate mixed with the right things can be used to make Napalm. Does that mean when a grocery store burns down, that the fire fighters are going to find proof that the building was napalmed?

Ahh, but what if "super napalm" were found? Since this is therMATE and not therMITE this would seem to be a key difference. It would be like finding the makings of concentrated orange juice around the bases of several trees around a demolished orange tree.

I do wonder this, do you folks so against any type of conspiracy really think that the offical story is more or less the truth? I also wonder if this had been a private affair, instead of so public, would it have been handled as an insurance fraud situation (which is what it really really looks like, not saying it is.)

Circumstancial evidence, is still evidence.

reply to post by adigregorio


It is not super anything. There are no components of thermate. There might not even be components of thermite.

reply to post by pteridine


Well from the 22 pages I read, I was under the impression it was identified by one side of the debate as Thermate. Well them, and those fellows from Denmark, the ones with all the big credientials.

Of course, I understand that you may have similar credientials. Which would make you input greatly appreciated, since you could help explain how the Denmark fellow is wrong. If you are missing those credientials I would have to say that your 'proof' may be suspect.

Consider the following:

From page 10, left column: "The DSC tests were conducted with a linear heating rate of 10 °C per minute up to a temperature of 700 °C. During heating, the samples were contained in alumina pans and air was allowed to flow at 55 milliliters per minute during the heating."
This would cause anything burnable to burn; paint binder , paper, sawdust, etc.

From Page 16 Figure 10. Notice the distribution patterns for Aluminum, Silicon, and Oxygen are all similar. Aluminosilicates are common minerals and are used as fillers in paints and coatings.

There is no evidence of elemental aluminum, barium nitrate, or elemental sulfur in any of the EDAX spectra.

reply to post by pteridine


So by this response am I to assume that you hold various degrees in the same fields as the scientists who conducted the experiments?

If not, you seem to be thinking that you are much smarter than these people. Which I am not saying you are not, just that I will need more than your assertions that this is the truth.

reply to post by adigregorio

I do wonder this, do you folks so against any type of conspiracy really think that the offical story is more or less the truth? I also wonder if this had been a private affair, instead of so public, would it have been handled as an insurance fraud situation (which is what it really really looks like, not saying it is.)

There are several conspiracies i believe in (how do you think i found out about ATS) But those conspiracy theories actually have some credible evidence to suggest the possibility.

All i've seen from 9/11 truthers is lies and sabotage to supposed 'evidence' that backs their claim....from hologram planes to "we found microscopic amounts of a chemical that is used in lots of different things, and one of those things happens to be demolitions"

I've watched demolitions.....lots of them. (havent' we all?)

And those towers did not fall like a building being professionally demolished.

But of course....the powers that be planned for it that way?

There are loopholes of infinite possibility in the 9/11 "truth" movement. They're all strawman arguments that cannot be proven, and rely on the fact that the only way to disprove them is good old fashioned common sense and rational thinking.

It's not "falling for the official story" it's evaluating what you saw with your own two eyes for yourself and formulating your own opinion.

Originally posted by Fremd

There are several conspiracies i believe in...

First, minor misunderstanding (didn't catch it till the edit timer ran out)
I was referring to this one conspiracy, apologies.

**EDIT Ug I am foolish, there is no timer. I thought the edit button was at the bottom of posts. I am not a noob I promise, I just do not post too often.

Originally posted by Fremd
All i've seen from 9/11 truthers is lies and sabotage to supposed 'evidence' that backs their claim....from hologram planes--

I remember that one! That is when I first started to 'not care' about what happened. I figured if explanations were getting that desperate, the 'real truth' was still years upon years away.

Originally posted by Fremd
--to "we found microscopic amounts of a chemical that is used in lots of different things, and one of those things happens to be demolitions"

To be fair, Thermate is not used in 'lots of different things'. I understand the confusion though, for thermite is. (This assesment is made based off of the news clip I watched, TV2News Denmark)

Originally posted by Fremd
And those towers did not fall like a building being professionally demolished.

Fair enough, but I also say that they did not fall like a building hit by a huge object. Unfortunatly this is just my opinion, I have no degrees in physics. Logically I assume that if struck by an object of that nature, a building would tip/topple over. But that is my logic, and it can be flawed.

Originally posted by Fremd
But of course....the powers that be planned for it that way?

I am uncertain that "The Powers That Be" even exist. At least as a group of "real" people. If I were to guess, I would say they are more of a self fullfilling prophecy.

Originally posted by Fremd
It's not "falling for the official story" it's evaluating what you saw with your own two eyes for yourself and formulating your own opinion.

Which is what I do. And in this small opinion, the 'official story' sure smells fishy. And please, do not confuse the smell of fish with caring about the smell.

If the government was big bad meanies, I could care less. I am small and insignifigant as things stand now, and my opinions on this matter are even smaller (compared with the people involved (ie victims))

--I promise I was not appealing to emotion, sure smells like it though...

**EDIT** BB Code yet again, just be glad I don't get picky over my spelling errors or we would be here all night.

[edit on 4/14/2009 by adigregorio]

[edit on 4/14/2009 by adigregorio]

Originally posted by mmiichael

Thanks for the articulation of something I believe strongly and have been trying to communicate in my own way around here.

The rush to embrace any and every theory that makes the US the villain is frightening. It becomes evident that there are people out there who crave some kind of positive self-image and see themselves as champions of Truth, Justice, and the True American Way by researching hidden plots and duplicity on the part of their own people.

The US, UK, Israel, are demonized at every opportunity. The rest of the world is given a free pass to destroy, deceive, deprive people of their dignity and their rights. They issue a blanket excuse of being victims of American Imperialism. So many Americans buy into it.


I'm not American, but had to watch painfully as the United States was attacked and nearly a decade later some of it's citizens are examining paint chips to prove already destroyed buildings were brought down with explosives by government agencies, supposedly for some extra dramatic effects.

Meanwhile US enemies are laughing at all this. They are closer to accomplishing the downfall of the West with the help of it's residents.

There are real conspiracies against the American people. It's citizens should be addressing them.


Mike

I do agree with you in all the points you made.

It is good that see people such as yourself can see that the real issue with all these "anti-U.S.' "anti-Capitalism" threads, is to instill hatred that has been indoctrinated into people. Yet at least some people, such as yourself, can clearly see what is actually being done. This is nothing more than the systematically destruction of Capitalism by making it a scapegoat, and with it the U.S. Yet those same people who keep bashing and blaming everything on the United States, are totatlly oblivious, or do not care that in any, and every conflict there are always at least two sides, and the U.S. most often than not has responded to the spread of ideaologies which have caused chaos, and destruction.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by adigregorio

I am far from an expert on this 911 hoopla. In all honesty I could really care less who did it. I find it all interesting reads, and so here I am. After reading all of these pages I had decided not to post. But watching the "truthers" be beaten down by bad debating tactics has brought the devils advocate.

If you call presenting facts to "beating down by bad debating tactics" then it is obvious you would rather dismiss all facts, which is the "bad tactic".

Would you rather no facts be presented to you so you can continue to believe in your "fantasy"?...

Originally posted by adigregorio
So I ask you sir, to list some other examples of these "claims" being brought back after months, for this smacks to me of weasle words. (check wiki for the definition)

Do a search in these forums, I am not going to do the search for you since you yourself stated previously you would rather not accept facts that destroy your fantasies.

This same claim about " thermite" being used to collapse the towers has been discussed several times. This is not the first time, and after each time no evidence for these claims were found. Yet here we are again, now a made up company, which is not looking for the truth and claims that people who have no expertise in these subjects, are "experts in the field".

Originally posted by adigregorio
So you have inside knowledge that it was made up? I ask this because you say it is "clear" this is made up, however it is obvious to me that not everyone sees it so translucently. PS More weasle words, "it is clear..." What is clear, how is it clear, why is it clear?

So you talk about bad tactics and your tactic is to call those who present evidence against your claims "weasels".....

Do yourself a favor and read a post in it's entirety before you make a "weasel", and much worse out of yourself.

Originally posted by adigregorio
Gasp!! Could this be a conspiracy?! What "proof" do you have that this is taking place?

Again....READ the information people give before you start making comments about a topic you did not even bother to read. I gave excerpts, and links to prove my statements, and all you have done is name calling, and making claims without any evidence....

Originally posted by adigregorio
Or be like me, who gives a rats, at least until they discover time travel not much can be done to "fix" the mess that day.

If you don't care, why in the world are you even in the forums discussing a topic you don't care about?.....



[edit on 15-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You seem to have come to the conclusion that I believe that thermate was used.

My 'official' stance on the destruction of the towers is that the Official Story is just as fishy. Also note, the term fishy does not mean a lie or false. As for this (for the sake of argument I add quotes) "New" development with thermAte. I do not have the credentials to make ANY substancial claims, other than 'gut feelings' (ie fishy).

Now, please take all of that into consideration. If you care to keep your rebuttle the same I will respond, but feel free to edit out the parts where you think I am a "truther". Only reason I am stating this is you seemed a bit hostile (if it was a response to observed hostility from me apologies in advance).

--tooooopic--
ThermAte or no thermAte, the collapse of all 3 buildings looked fishy. Neither did they look quite like demolitions, nor quite like a building toppling over due to an impact.

Bring a possiblity of thermAte into the mix and I do not know, I have never seen a building brought down by thermAte (and in all fairness, neither have I seen one brought down by an impact (such as a plane)). Perhaps a test should be conducted?

**EDIT
I went back and read your 'proof'. Wikipedia, a blog, and a Ask So-and-So column. That is supposed to make things 'clear' for everyone that this is a scam? Scam or not, I generally look to more reputable sources of information when trying to 'prove' something. (Remember, I am not saying ThermAte was used. Or that the Official Story is not true.)

[edit on 4/15/2009 by adigregorio]

Yep, old news really, but it does add strong support for the many who believe 9/11 was an inside job.

This is a bit of gratification for the many who have struggled through the ridicule from the MSM and the average joe when we spoke up and tried to state the obvious. Now we have scientific evidence to support our research and out gut feeling.

Bravo!

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

It is good that see people such as yourself can see that the real issue with all these "anti-U.S.' "anti-Capitalism" threads, is to instill hatred that has been indoctrinated into people. Yet at least some people, such as yourself, can clearly see what is actually being done. This is nothing more than the systematically destruction of Capitalism by making it a scapegoat, and with it the U.S. Yet those same people who keep bashing and blaming everything on the United States, are totally oblivious, or do not care that in any, and every conflict there are always at least two sides, and the U.S. most often than not has responded to the spread of ideologies which have caused chaos, and destruction.

Thanks again for the reinforcement on what one would think should be fairly evident to a lot of people.

The genesis of this thread was the merits of a very dubious scientific paper claiming there are traces of thermite in a recently discovered sample from WTC rubble. Implication is that there was a controlled demolition.

I don't see how someone with an open mind looking at all the evidence objectively would cling to the unproven claim that the collapse of three already destroyed buildings was due to pre-planted explosives.

No one has explained satisfactorily how thermite could be placed to do the damage those buildings incurred. No one can supply a convincing explanation why that bonus of having them fall down the same day would even be a concern. There is no incriminating solid evidence in the form of any suspected perpetrator or facilitator notes, emails, memos, purchase orders, etc for an elaborate installation of explosives.

Just an unwavering conviction for some that the US government wanted a Really Big Show. Even after two horrendous airliner collisions, buildings destroyed, thousands killed, that little extra touch was worth risking everything for?

There is a growing sub-culture wherein many feel they attain some kind of moral superiority and status by uncovering a vast shadowy conspiracy within the US government. Like a communal fantasy where they are the brave Rebel Alliance fighting the evil Empire, ala STAR WARS.

Their so-called research sources consist of amateurish videos, literature from a sub-industry with supposed 'experts', agenda driven websites. Over the years they have yielded "mountains and mountains of evidence" which seems to melt in the sunlight of serious examination.

The whole phenomenon I consider some sort of adolescent rebellion movement playing with real world events as an interactive roleplaying game. It's exciting. YOU can be a Secret Agent in your own home uncovering The Real Truths.

It gets serious when you start accusing real people of mass murder. Then you have to get your facts straight.


On your point of this being a confrontation of ideologies - the US and the West vs. what Russia and China represent, I concur in spirit. I personally don’t think holdover Cold War terminology, Capitalism vs. Communism, adequately describes the new antagonism evolving. Closer might be Free Enterprise vs. State Controlled economies.

Many mega-conspiracies waiting to be uncovered here. Maybe the whole Truth Movement is one of the biggest. Mountains and mountains of evidence still to be climbed.

Hopefully this conversation can be continued elsewhere.


Mike


[edit on 15-4-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by adigregorio

You seem to have come to the conclusion that I believe that thermate was used.

My 'official' stance on the destruction of the towers is that the Official Story is just as fishy. Also note, the term fishy does not mean a lie or false. As for this (for the sake of argument I add quotes) "New" development with thermAte. I do not have the credentials to make ANY substancial claims, other than 'gut feelings' (ie fishy).

Well, first of all this thread has nothing to do with the several other claims that have come up about this, i made a general statement, and if we were to address every one of them, this would be indeed a long thread. Instead this thread is specifically about this sham made up by Bentham Open. I presented links with the statements of some experts, and a person who he himself said was not an expert, yet the Bentham Open website claimed he was one.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Well, first of all this thread has nothing to do with the several other claims that have come up about this, i made a general statement, and if we were to address every one of them, this would be indeed a long thread.

In all fairness, if you are going to use those other claims as an example as to why this one is false we are going to have to elaborate on them so the similarities can be seen. Otherwise it is just opinions of "true/false" being knocked back and forth.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Instead this thread is specifically about this sham made up by Bentham Open. I presented links with the statements of some experts, and a person who he himself said was not an expert, yet the Bentham Open website claimed he was one.

Again, I fail to see how Wikipedia, a blog, and an "Ask so-and-so" website are links from "some experts".

Also the fellow with the e-mail from Bentham. I have yet to see a screen cap of this "e-mail" nor have I seen any other complaints about recieving one. Hearsay does not hold up in a court of law.

I might have missed other links you presented, the ones I am referring to happen 1 or 2 pages ago. I skimmed back further but they [pages] all blend together after the first read.

Well the 2 towers I saw fall started right at the points of impact from 2 jet sized holes punched through the towers by.....................you guessed it...........JETS. It has been proven that the impact of the planes crashing into the buildings at over 600 MPH was more than enough to blow the insulation off the steel girders supporting the floors. Now with the weight of the floors above resting on weakened supports on top of a fire burning....warped the steel, and the floors started to pancake......no need for any type of thermite. Seems to me if the Government wanted to bring them down to start a war, why not plant bombs inside and just blame a team of terrorist patsies......without the planes...or did they feel the need to overhaul airport security as a side benefit to this

The real conspiracy here is not how the towers were brought down, but the United States' inability to see this coming / lack of action IF it did. The heads of our intelligence services should have rolled. People at the FBI should have been fired for lack of investigating "fly planes but not land" memo.