It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Long Lance
so, how many people even knew about the 'IPCC' before Kyoto?
is it really that hard to understand? the media sold it as GW
Increased Burning of Fuels; Could Alter Climate Change in Climate Is Expected Steady Increase Is Measured 'Feedback Effects' Are Crucial
By WALTER SULLIVAN
November 20, 1979, Tuesday
Section: Science Times, Page C1, 1688 words
WHAT will the climate of the future be like? Warmer? Colder? Few questions are more important to those who must plan future energy and agricultural policy.
To Halt Climate Change, Scientists Try Trees
By WILLIAM K. STEVENS
Published: Tuesday, July 18, 1989
SCIENTISTS, foresters, environmentalists and Government officials are seriously exploring the feasibility of an ambitious long-term enterprise: planting enough trees around the world to ease the threat of global warming.
His Bold Statement Transforms the Debate On Greenhouse Effect
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Published: Tuesday, August 23, 1988
SITTING in his office near the Columbia University campus, seven floors above the internal combustion of fossil fuel along Broadway, James E. Hansen held a large pair of what he called loaded dice. He was making a point last week about the probabilities of drastic climate change as a result of the greenhouse effect.
EXPERTS QUESTION SEA-RISE THEORY
Permissions
By WALTER SULLIVAN (The New York Times); National Desk
April 15, 1984, Sunday
Late City Final Edition, Section 1, Page 15, Column 1, 929 words
Specialists in polar ice caps have expressed doubts about a rise in sea level that has been predicted as a consequence of the expected warming of world climates. Some experts, in fact, now suspect that the sea level may fall. Two reports on probable climate change were issued last ...
THE NATION; How Fighting Global Warming Could Be Painless and Profitable
By ROBERT REINHOLD
Published: Sunday, September 3, 1989
...But avoiding world climate change, he maintains, will also require compromises, like ride sharing and more use of mass transit. He argues for a gradual increase of the gasoline excise tax to $1 a gallon, combined with a penalty against owners of gas guzzlers paid to drivers of new efficient cars. But he said these measures would be politically impossible now.
Bush Proposing Talks in U.S. on Global Warming
By ALLAN R. GOLD, Special to The New York Times
Published: Wednesday, December 6, 1989
''Whether it's evolution or revelation, I think the President is to be congratulated on taking this initiative,'' said Senator John Heinz, a Pennsylvania Republican who has criticized the President's policies on climate change.
But Senator Albert Gore Jr., a Tennessee Democrat and another critic of Mr. Bush's climate-change policies, said, ''It remains to be seen whether this is a real change.'' Mr. Gore termed the proposal a ''begrudging acceptance of political reality.''
even today people are using it and i'm not just talking about opponents of the air tax, like me. i think not but i've seen it often enough, when in doubt, try to goad people.... i'll leave it at that.
everyone still called it GW and climate change is relatively recent,
why you would debate my (alledged) age and an issue as clear as the GW/CC transition which everyone who is even remotely interested in such topics will simply remember.
iow you're doing a lot of shadow boxing as far as i can see.
PS: i will from now on only adress posts negatively and simply omit everything else, otherwise i'll be suspected of talking for that person - -extremely uncorrect i presume. (no that's not a word)
Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by melatonin
So because of a handful of scientists suggested global cooling, Dupont had a patented chemical outlawed (Freon?) in the 1970s?
Really?
No, not really. DuPont got freon outlawed so their new refrigerant would still be patent-protected via propaganda about the dangers of freon and the concern implemented in the public arena by the "New Ice Age". But at least you're close, if the reasoning is backwards.
I was there.
Demand for Freon® refrigerants and propellants continued to grow until the 1970s when scientific studies indicated that CFCs were depleting the ozone layer that shielded the earth from harmful ultraviolet radiation. During the 1980s DuPont began developing more environmentally friendly hydroflourocarbons, eventually marketed as Suva® refrigerants and Dymel® propellants. During the 1980s, federal regulatory agencies banned the use of chlorofluorocarbons and DuPont began phasing out production, producing its last CFCs in the developed countries in 1995. The difficulties faced by American producers and consumers alike in curtailing their use of Freon® were a testament to its profound impact on postwar life.
It appears so. Amazing is the fact that acid rain is still extant in the areas that were once splattered across the news. Just as amazing is the fact that the media coverage declined to present levels concerning acid rain (in other words minimal if at all) about the same time it was 'revealed' that catalytic converters were a major cause of it.
Again, I was there.
Because, once again, I was there. I trust my memory and direct observation more than I will ever trust an Internet source, or a faceless person arguing that what I saw wasn't real.
If I cannot, who can? I am an 'average person', and I was there.
You might as well try to tell me that the house I grew up in didn't exist until I was 30, or perhaps that 'Gilligan's Island' never aired on broadcast TV. Those arguments are no different than the one you are proposing about the 1970s, Mel. I was there.
Apparently you were not.
TheRedneck
Freon is a CFC and was gradually phased out due to ozone depletion. Wasn't even 'outlawed' till 1996.
Catalytic converters were one significant cause. SO2 was and still is a major contributor to acid rain. Ask the chinese, they're finding out how it works.
So the notion was never abandoned like you suggested.
Yeah, of course. You were there. Even though the evidence shows there were few studies and a few media reports suggesting global cooling, and many more about global warming, it was some sort of big 'reverse' from the scientists, lol.
I wuz around in the 70s. But was more worried about The Magic Roundabout, lol.
And that's all you have. You were there. But the evidence suggests you are wrong. You do know that memory isn't some sort of uncorruptable data disk, but is more a reconstructive phenomena - hence why eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
The actual ban was in 1994. But I was actually referring to the pre-ban phase-out. You see, in the 1970s, one with a bit of mechanical inclination could recharge their air conditioners via the use of a small, inexpensive hose kit and a few cans of Freon (R-12, manufactured by DuPont primarily, as well as a few other chemical companies who paid royalties to DuPont for the privilege of manufacturing their product). Then the CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons) known as R-12 were heavily taxed. Then sale was prohibited except in large bulk containers (that conveniently only automotive repair shops could afford to buy). The final phase out was in 1994, when R-12 was deemed illegal to manufacture, although it was made prohibitively expensive much earlier, producing an effective ban on personal use of the product.
The chairman of DuPont commented that the ozone depletion theory was "a science fiction tale...a load of rubbish...utter nonsense." (Chemical Week, 16 July 1975). The aerosol industry also launched a PR blitz, issuing a press release stating that the ozone destruction by CFCs was a theory, and not fact. This press release, and many other 'news stories' favorable to industry, were generated by the aerosol industry and printed by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Fortune magazine, Business Week, and the London Observer (Blysky and Blysky, 1985). The symbol of Chicken Little claiming that "The sky is falling!" was used with great effect by the PR campaign, and appeared in various newspaper headlines
The CFC industry companies hired the world's largest public relations firm, Hill & Knowlton, who organized a month-long U.S. speaking tour in 1975 for noted British scientist Richard Scorer, a former editor of the International Journal of Air Pollution and author of several books on pollution. Scorer blasted Molina and Rowland, calling them "doomsayers", and remarking, "The only thing that has been accumulated so far is a number of theories."
...
Disparage scientists, saying they are playing up uncertain predictions of doom in order to get research funding. - One CFC industry magazine stated in 1975, "The whole area of research grants and the competition among scientists to get them must be considered a factor in the politics of ozone" (Roan, 1985). A publication by the conservative think tank, The Cato Institute, argued that NASA's 1992 warnings of a potential ozone hole opening up over the Northern Hemisphere "were exquisitely timed to bolster the agency's budget requests" (Bailey, 1993).
Disparage environmentalists, claiming they are hyping environmental problems in order to further their ideological goals. - Dr. Fred Singer commented on environmentalists' reaction to Molina and Rowland's work linking CFCs with ozone depletion as follows: "The ecofreaks were ecstatic. At last, an industrial chemical--and produced by big bad DuPont and others of that ilk" (Singer, 1989).
Complain that it is unfair to require regulatory action in the U.S., as it would put the nation at an economic disadvantage. - Of course, other countries complained that they were unwilling to act until the U.S., the number one manufacturer and emitter of CFCs, showed leadership on the issue and took action first.
Claim that more research is needed before action should be taken. -Between 1974 and 1987, the CFC industry and government officials continually asked for an additional three years for more research. Molina called this tactic, "the sliding three years".
The reason the acid rain scare was dropped was because of the hypocrisy in the government that would be exposed if with one hand they were cracking down on companies that released SO2, while with the other hand they were forcing private citizens to release it.
Abandoned from the public perception. You just don't seem to grasp the concept of propaganda.
So, you are saying that after-the-fact accounts are more reliable than eyewitness reports. Hmmmm.... at least I got the 'lol' I was expecting.
Not 100% sure what a 'Magic Roundabout' is, but I will assume from context and the name that it is some sort of a children's show.
If so, that explains why you have to rely on historical reports: you weren't there in the sense that at that age you didn't know or care what was happening.
And now, in your arrogance, you seem to think that everyone who was there, who saw and understood what was happening, is so beneath you as to be declared memory-impaired? Because what they saw doesn't agree with what you want to be?
That's more than you have. You have no direct experience with the events I have described, but somehow you claim to know more about them than I (or anyone else who lived through that time period as more than a small child).
Go on, keep reading your reports by activists explaining why they want me to be wrong. In your heart you know as well as I do that I am right, that Global Warming aka Climate Change aka Cap & Trade aka Kyoto is a huge scam being perpetrated on the world's population.
And if you look deeper you might realize that, despite your adherence to the fabricated lines
Wasn't dropped at all.
It is still an issue now.
Nope, just don't buy that it is propaganda to be concerned about scientifically informed human impacts on the environment.
The evidence is available. They still have media and scientific papers so we don't have to rely on your biased and flawed memory.
They show that you're just another pawn spouting think-tank BS.
And now, in your arrogance, you seem to think that everyone who was there, who saw and understood what was happening, is so beneath you as to be declared memory-impaired? Because what they saw doesn't agree with what you want to be?
lol. Redneck, you have just shown that you being there is not reliable.
I didn't even live in the states, so wouldn't have any direct experience of air conditioners in the 1970/80s - we never really needed them in the UK, lol.
You are an activist - a vicarious one. You are little more than an anti-science pawn in the right-wing deniers game of Delay and Dolittle. History repeating itself - just like for tobacco, just like for ozone, just like now for GHG-induced warming.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
DuPont actively supported ozone depletion (which was popularly tied to the "New Ice Age") after working against it for many years.
Oh? Really? how many newspapers are spreading the word about acid rain? How many news stories do we see about acid rain?
Report on Acid Rain Finds Good News and Bad News
By CAROL KAESUK YOON
Published: Thursday, October 7, 1999
the last two decades, countries in northern Europe and North America have been enacting regulations to reduce smokestack emissions of sulfur in an effort to curb acid rain and its harmful effect on the environment.
Metro Briefing | New York: Albany: Monitoring For Acid Rain
ANTHONY DEPALMA; COMPILED BY JOHN SULLIVAN
Published: June 5, 2007
Officials with the Adirondack Council, an environmental group, are lobbying to reverse planned reductions in the federal budget that would severely limit or eliminate several acid rain monitoring programs.
Metro Briefing | New York: Albany: Acid Rain Rules Go Into Effect
By Kirk Semple (NYT); Compiled by George James
Published: Wednesday, August 18, 2004
state has decided to enact the acid rain rules that a New York judge threw out in May, arguing that further delay would endanger public health and the state's natural resources...
Beyond Carbon: Scientists Worry About Nitrogen’s Effects
By RICHARD MORGAN
Published: September 1, 2008
...
“The nitrogen dilemma,” Dr. Vitousek added, “is not just thinking that carbon is all that matters. But also thinking that global warming is the only environmental issue. The weakening of biodiversity, the pollution of rivers, these are local issues that need local attention. Smog. Acid rain. Coasts. Forests. It’s all nitrogen.”
Editorial
A Major Setback for Clean Air
July 16, 2008
...
The 2005 rule was aimed at sharply reducing power plant emissions of sulfur dioxide, which creates acid rain, and nitrogen oxides, which create smog. The government estimated that cutting those emissions could help prevent 17,000 premature deaths annually by 2015. The rule covered emissions in 28 states east of the Mississippi River. It was aimed at pollution that blows eastward from coal-fired power plants in the Midwest, threatening not only human health but the environment — in New York’s case, the streams and forests of the Adirondacks.
Acid Rain's National Reach
Published: Saturday, April 10, 1999
people think of the ravages of acid rain, they tend to think mainly of dead and dying watersheds in the Northeastern United States, particularly those in New York's Adirondack Mountains, where hundreds of highly acidified lakes and streams can no longer sustain aquatic life. But an exhaustive Federal study has now concluded that acid rain has spread its poisons far and wide, damaging sensitive watersheds in the Southeastern United States and in ecologically significant areas of the West like the Sierra Nevada, the Cascade Range and some parts of the Rocky Mountains.
State Closes Coal-Fired Plant That Failed to Limit Emissions
LISA W. FODERARO
Published: May 11, 2007
STONY POINT, N.Y., May 10 — Four years ago, a company that owns two local power plants settled a lawsuit with New York State by agreeing to install $100 million worth of pollution control technology at one of them, its coal-fired plant here, or shut it down.
...
The emissions from the 350-megawatt Lovett plant are linked to acid rain and smog. At the time of the settlement, state environmental officials said the emissions from Lovett alone, which looms over the west bank of the Hudson River, represented a quarter of the sulfur dioxide and almost a third of the nitrogen oxide released by electric generators in seven counties in the Hudson Valley.
The Forest That Stopped Growing: Trail Is Traced to Acid Rain
By WILLIAM K. STEVENS
Published: Tuesday, April 16, 1996
In the first long-term study of its kind, researchers have found that a New England forest whose soil chemistry has been altered by acid rain essentially stopped growing nearly a decade ago and will probably be a long time in recovering.
Fred's Footprint: The cost of cleaner air
Catalytic converters filter our pollutants from exhausts using two metals: palladium and platinum. World demand for both has soared as a result, with catalytic converters taking almost half of current product from mines.
Most of the palladium comes from Siberian mines and is refined at the world?s biggest, and most notoriously polluting, metals smelters at a godforsaken spot called Norilsk, a closed Russian city on the edge of the Arctic Circle.
The Norilsk smelters are the biggest concentrated source of sulphur dioxide pollution on the planet.
Sulphur dioxide makes acid rain. And for hundreds of kilometres round Norilsk, the trees of the tundra are dead because of the acid fallout. In effect we are destroying huge areas of Arctic tundra with acid rain, so the rest of the world can keep its city air clean.
Oceans not safe from acid rain
05 September 2007
EVEN the oceans aren't safe from acid rain. Acidification of the upper layers of the planet's oceans has become a concern as the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere rises, increasing the amount that the oceans absorb. But the impact of nitric oxide and sulphuric acid from the burning of fossil fuels has been neglected, says Scott Doney of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, who led a team that modelled the fate of these emissions.
Dirty ships evade acid rain controls
22 June 1996 by Michael Bond
Magazine issue 2035
THE world is waking up to a new acid rain threat. Sulphur pollution from ships is increasing so dramatically that it could soon cancel out the improvements made by cutting emissions from power stations and other land-based sources.
Science : Lightning sharpens acid rain's bite
31 May 1997 by Vincent Kiernan
Magazine issue 2084
Washington DC
IT'S not just milk that turns sour when lightning strikes. A geologist in Athens, Georgia, has found that acid rain becomes nastier during thunderstorms, when lightning generates reactive chemicals that speed up acid production in the atmosphere.
Science : Toxic chemistry turns air acid
03 May 1997 by Andy Coghlan
Magazine issue 2080
SULPHURIC acid forms much more easily in the atmosphere than expected, say chemists in Britain. This suggests that the atmosphere may become acidic enough to damage the environment even when the air is too dry for rain.
Raining acid on Asia - As clouds of polluting gas drift in from China's power stations, Japan will have to help its neighbour install greener technologies or suffer the economic and environmental consequences
15 February 1997 by Peter Hadfield
Magazine issue 2069
Acid attack
25 April 1998 by Michael Brooke
Magazine issue 2131
ACID rain has progressively thinned the shells of eggs laid by British thrushes over the past 150 years, a new study suggests. Ornithologists fear that the trend could make thrush eggs less likely to hatch.
Airborne Acid May Help Soot Turn Into Cloud Seeds
ScienceDaily (Mar. 28, 2009) — Carbon soot aerosols from combustion of fossil fuels and forest fires directly influence the Earth-atmosphere heat balance by absorbing sunlight. Fresh soot particles repel water and hence have little effect on properties and lifetimes of clouds.
...
Because sulfuric acid, a pollutant and the driving agent in acid rain, is increasing in the atmosphere due to industrial activities, the authors expect that this mechanism of water absorption by acid-coated soot significantly influences cloud formation.
Acid Rain Reduces Methane Emissions From Rice Paddies
ScienceDaily (Aug. 7, 2008) — Acid rain from atmospheric pollution can reduce methane emissions from rice paddies by up to 24 per cent according to research led by Dr Vincent Gauci of The Open University. This is potentially a beneficial side effect of the high pollution levels
Climate Change Set Back For Acidified Rivers
ScienceDaily (Dec. 5, 2008) — Climate change is hampering the long-term recovery of rivers from the effects of acid rain, with wet weather offsetting improvements, according to a new study by Cardiff University.
Database Shows Effects Of Acid Rain On Microorganisms In Adirondack Lakes
ScienceDaily (June 27, 2008) — Prior to the federal Clean Air Act, unhindered industrial emissions were released into the air throughout the Midwestern and Eastern United States for decades. Many of those harmful chemicals came right back down to earth in the form of acid rain, a chemical concoction that includes nitric and sulfuric acid.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
It is propaganda to pick and choose which scientific explanation/solution will be the agenda du jour. I have no beef with scientific discoveries being examined and thoroughly researched, nor would I have a problem with any sufficiently researched conclusion being used to adjust policy. But cherry-picking which problem will be addressed this decade, and what facts are to be accepted and which are to be ignored, and choosing whose research is sound and whose isn't based on nothing more than desired outcomes is indeed propaganda.
And all of these papers and media are subject to being amended to portray history the way those who control said media wish it to be portrayed.
Now you compare me to a think tank. I must be gaining neurons by leaps and bounds.
You wanna explain this? You just responded to a challenge to your logic with a quick dismissal that doesn't even acknowledge the challenge.
1970s: concerns about the coming "New Ice Age" are propagandized and spoon-fed to the public. The result is that certain chemicals are outlawed, among them the refrigerant used in air conditioning units. Coincidentally, the patent held by DuPont on said refrigerant is about to expire. A new refrigerant that is deemed harmless to the atmosphere is then patented by DuPont, extending their patent protection over refrigerants for two patent life-spans.
1980s: the concern then moves to acid rain. News stories and 'documentaries' are published on a regular basis showcasing how terrible the destruction of the forests via sulfuric acid in rainwater is, and warning of a day when standing in a rain shower could be deadly to human life. This was abandoned shortly after some chemists stood up and announced that the largest contributor to acid rain was the use of the catalytic converter, mandated by government.
Ah, but the great and all-knowing Melatonin, omniscient master of all climate, still knows more about the situation than even those who saw it first-hand.
Yeah, right.
Activist... possibly, since I am actively debating you (and others) as to the true purpose of Global Warming. But by that definition, you are also an activist. Pot calling the kettle black?
Anti-science.... hmmm.... would you like to show me anywhere on ATS that I have dismissed science out of hand?
Because you, sir, apparently believe science includes nothing that could ever disagree with Hansen or Gore (I think I'll start calling it 'Hanscience' ). So if I am anti-Hanscience in that respect, it means I am actually more scientific than you or any of your 'heroes'.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by melatonin
A quick count had the number of examples at 17, spanning a period of 11 years (1997-2008). I could give you 17 articles on Global Warming covering a single day's time span!
Nice try though. I would give the examples, but apparently I'm not as bored as you are.
You will no doubt be running around screaming about the sky falling from whatever cause has struck your fancy that year.
Must be a lot of fun to run around in circles screaming doom... enjoy it. I have a control circuit board to lay out (5 of them, actually). I'll try to check back in later on as I have time.
Because it is still a relevant term. The long-term trend will be warming from anthropogenic influences.
If you have evidence of
Not really, I was focusing on your exact words.
Originally posted by Long Lance
you quote a few articles, two of which have GW in their headlines and use CC as a means to avoid repetition. what is this supposed to prove? where is your 22mn number coming from and if correct, wouldn't it constitute an miniscule minority?
Because it is still a relevant term. The long-term trend will be warming from anthropogenic influences.
let me guess... 2100AD. could have sworn there was a time when 2050 was far enough away in the future.
why is the term being shunned today? evidence isn't the same as proof btw.
trying to remain as polite as is defensible, i suggest you focus on the issue at hand and related topics rather than nitpicking about guesstimates of forum posters' ages and what you can interpret into their phrases.
That's all I could be bothered looking for. If you want to, spend more time. The point was that your claim that anything was abandoned due to catalytic converters was tripe.
Originally posted by melatonin
A science daily search of the term 'global warming' for the last year brings up 1,549 articles. I'm sure not all are relevant, but even if 50% are, then that's over 700 articles.
Originally posted by melatonin
lol, I just made the number up. Wasn't that obvious?
And that's exactly what the deniers said in the 1980s about CFCs and ozone, lol.
Are you an engineer?
Originally posted by TheRedneck
And yet, 17 articles over a 11-year span is equivalent to that. Perhaps you need to have some math books rewritten like 1970s history was to make that argument fly.
Shades of the IPCC! It's contagious!
Yeah, and the ozone 'hole' was later proven to be a natural phenomena that exists due to the geographic location (South Pole).
On, heavens no! I'm a redneck, a denier, a pawn of the oil companies, a oil company executive, a bigot, a racist, a Nazi, a liberal wussy, and a pseudo-scientist. Don't you remember?
Who's talking about equivalence?
That comment would futher verify your anti-science syndrome.
Originally posted by melatonin
lol, I just made the number up. Wasn't that obvious?
Ozone depletion by CFCs is a very real phenomena.
lol, liberal? Not likely.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by melatonin
Who's talking about equivalence?
That was me. You can find that out by looking to the left.
What I stated was that the acid rain issue was minimalized in the public media, due to (or at least coincidentally at the same time as) the realization and exposure that catalytic converters (due to their SO2 output, so you don't confuse that issue again) were a major contributor
In that respect, you began to argue that there had been no minimalization in the public media. Yet, you managed to pull 17 articles from an 11-year span on acid rain, while simultaneously bragging to Lance about 10,000 articles in the past year alone for just the NY Times. I would say that indicates that any major public campaign to press the dangers of acid rain is taking a serious back seat to other climate issues, wouldn't you?
This was abandoned shortly after some chemists stood up and announced that the largest contributor to acid rain was the use of the catalytic converter, mandated by government.
Oh, I forgot! It is heresy to even question the IPCC, even when their thermometers are found next to A/C exhausts or located over large areas of heat absorbing concrete, or even when they are caught falsifying data.
Ozone depletion by CFCs is a very real phenomena.
It certainly is....
In the long run, is it wise to regulate CFCs? Yes.
A lot of hysteria over a real issue which was only addressed in order to profit a company's bottom line.
Yeah, I have been told before I was way too liberal. Amazing how some people seem to think they know me, isn't it? I mean, people actually decide I am a denier or a... wait, that was you!
Originally posted by weedwhacker
May I ask, both Melatonin and RedNeck....I am actually interested in this subject, but I have a very hard time reading the various posts, as they are chopped up....
I say this from the standpoint of, slight 'awe', and slight 'confusion'....the 'awe' because I have no idea how to do the quotes....and the 'confusion' because the excessive use of 'quotes' just makes it very hard for others (meaning ME) to comprehend.
it tends to become a personal diatribe that is best suited to a U2U instead of a back-and-forth in an open Forum.