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Caves. Are they safe?

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posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by kiwifoot
I've often wondered where I would go if I had ten minutes notice to find safety. I've been thinking about some local caves that were old slate mines. They are approx 20m deep but only 30m above see level. Does anyone have any thoughts on their suitability for a hideout , would they be any good if the SHTF ie nuclear or polar shift? Is anywhere good with respect to the latter.

What about earthquakes? I guess a natural cave would be safer in an Earthquake but i don't know.

Anybody else had the same idea?

Foot


Usually old slate mines are unstable but also suffer from Radon gas like Granite areas do as well, also becuase the areaa is sedimentary you could suffer from methane gas as well. skip that mine and try something else.




posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:40 AM
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Radon gas??
radon gas take a lot of exposure many years at best before it will do anything to you.

if its nuclear bomb radiation or radon gas i will take the radon gas any day.

radon gas is a non issue execpt for a very few uranium mines.
i my over 40 years working mines and as a mine rescue team member i never tested for radon gas.

www.roadsideamerica.com...

if the mines are in the blue areas of this map they are unlikely to have enough radon gas to even detect.
en.wikipedia.org...:US_homes_over_recommended_radon_levels.gif



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 05:40 AM
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reply to post by ANNED
 


Thanks for your advice, it's great that you have a whole heap of experience in caving etc.

I was worried about the stability of the caves though, they aren't shored up or anything but have been around for a couple of hundred years ( I know a nanosecond in terms of geology) and are totaly open to the public so they must be ok I guess!?

They'd ake a good place to lay low for a while in case of public insurrection or mass rounding up of the people. ( Paranoid worst case scenario I'm sure but better to be prepared!)

Thanx



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 05:41 AM
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Usually old slate mines are unstable


My fears exactly, but I guess in an emergency better than nothing!



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 06:22 AM
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When I was a kid my buddies and I always loved to explore the local caves...
then I took a few classes "MSHA Confined space entry" MSHA being Mine Safety and Health Administration...

I was stunned to learn how easy it to unknowingly walk into a cave/mine and discover it is filled with poison gas (H2S or Methane) Even if the gas levels are below what is fatal they can be explosive, one match strike and BOOM....

go check out these YouTube videos
Mine and confined space safety training

I'm not saying don't do it, I am saying make sure you take a gas sniffer LEL monitor and O2 meter with you...



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 06:51 AM
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reply to post by DaddyBare
 


Crap! Thanks, yeah I'd rather take my chances on the surface than have to deal with gas!

I think these caves are well ventilated though, and not too deep. Maybe I'll add some kind of detector to my survival pack.

thanks, all advice welcome.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by vox2442
 


This is true. The caves in this area are pretty unstable because it is shale.

I used to frequent some old mines along the C&O canal. And I noticed changes from one trip too the next. So they wouldn' be good.. lol

but they were closed because they were unstable to begin with.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by DaddyBare
 


or in a tough spot, a parakeet.


In the fourth grade we took a tour of a coal mine in PA. (funny some parents think this was crazy) but it was about the most secure place.

I was thinking along abandoned lines but I think a current working cave is your best bet. More stringent safety standards.

And pack lots of light, nothing like experiencing absolute darkness to fray the nerves a bit.

[edit on 4-4-2009 by nixie_nox]



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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IMO caves are just too risky for a number of reasons.

The first one that comes to mind is being *smoked out*.
If someone knows you’re in there and tosses in some kind of chemical - well, let’s just say you’ll know real quick how Mr. Gofer feels when he meets up with Mr. Farmer with a grudge.

Second - Don't ever go IN someplace you can’t easily get OUT of.

No ready means of egress is just soooo not a good idea...

20 miles of cave? Sounds like it might beat both my fears, but then again, that’s a lot a ground to cover, in the dark, without getting lost, etc...

Hard to say though - I think you’d need to judge each cave on it’s own merits...



peace



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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Heh, that just reminded me, whatever you do, don't go in this cave if you happen to be in the Appalacian mountains...



On being cornered
If there's a squad of you the trick is to post sentinals at the cave entrance to keep watch for any enemies / threats approaching. That way the inner cave folk can be fore-warned to be ready and if necessary evac the cave



[edit on 4-4-2009 by WatchRider]



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by silo13
 


Oh no, 20 metres! But you raise some good points. There is so much to consider. I mean as a place to lay low it would be great, but long term it would suck.

I think I'm more confused now about the suitability of it than when I first started. I guess it all hinges on the situation I'm being faced.

Foot



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by kiwifoot
I've often wondered where I would go if I had ten minutes notice to find safety. I've been thinking about some local caves that were old slate mines. They are approx 20m deep but only 30m above see level. Does anyone have any thoughts on their suitability for a hideout , would they be any good if the SHTF ie nuclear or polar shift? Is anywhere good with respect to the latter.

What about earthquakes? I guess a natural cave would be safer in an Earthquake but i don't know.

Anybody else had the same idea?

Foot


Abandoned mines are generally very dangerous.
A cave is not a good place to stay during a nuclear event due to the natural ventilation most have not to mention mines which are intentionally vented.

I wouldn't worry about a polar shift as they take quite a long time to occur and there hasn't been one in QUITE a while.

If you're looking for a place to hide out in case of governmental collapse, you might consider checking to see if there's a local caving society that can give you info about local caves.

Just a few thoughts. Hope this helps.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 02:37 PM
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One of the most often overlooked dangers is having too many people in too small a cavern, the oxygen is rapidly depleted. Building a fire in a cave system consumes oxygen and feel the area with smoke. Going into a cave is like going into a balloon, very limited area and the way out is the way you came in. The amount of time you spend in a cave is usually determined by the amount of batteries you can carry. When the lights go out it is pitch black. Then there is the latrine, and the tools you need to dig it and to cover it.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 

Actually a polar shift is supposed to occur very soon. They happen every 24,500 years and always coincide with a stellar alignment that will happen on dec. 21, 2012. The gravitational forces that cause it have already started to take effect. In the last decade the mantle of the earth has shifted about 7 degrees already.

If it starts to shift rapidly then caves wont be safe.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Anuubis
reply to post by jfj123
 

Actually a polar shift is supposed to occur very soon. They happen every 24,500 years and always coincide with a stellar alignment that will happen on dec. 21, 2012. The gravitational forces that cause it have already started to take effect. In the last decade the mantle of the earth has shifted about 7 degrees already.

If it starts to shift rapidly then caves wont be safe.



Actually polar shifts are rare and do not coincide with any stellar alignment

Recent work by scientists and geologists Adam Maloof of Princeton University and Galen Halverson of Paul Sabatier University in Toulouse, France, indicates that Earth indeed rebalanced itself around 800 million years ago during the Precambrian time period.[8] They tested this idea by studying magnetic minerals in sedimentary rocks in a Norwegian archipelago. Using these minerals, Maloof and Halverson found that the north pole shifted more than 50 degrees — about the current distance between Alaska and the equator — in less than 20 million years. This reasoning is supported by a record of changes in sea level and ocean chemistry in the Norwegian sediments that could be explained by true polar wander, the team reports in the September–October 2006 issue of the Geological Society of America Bulletin.[9]

Research using GPS, conducted by Geoffrey Blewitt of the University of Nevada, has shown that normal seasonal changes in the distribution of ice and water cause minor movements of the poles.[10]

Much work on this subject has been done by William Hutton and can be found at The Hutton Commentaries website.[11] William Hutton and Jonathan Eagle in 2004 published Earth's Catastrophic Past and Future, which summarizes and extends their earlier work on possible mechanisms and timing of a future pole shift.[12]

en.wikipedia.org...

To recap, the last polar shift occured 800 million years ago and took approx. 20 million years to complete.

Hope the clarifies everything.

In any case, a cave or mine is NOT a safe place to be during any kind of seismic event.

[edit on 4-4-2009 by jfj123]



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 

Actually it clarifies nothing. It's all speculation and theory anyways. It's all a matter of "choose what you believe". I believe that the stellar alignment has a lot to do with it.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by Anuubis
reply to post by jfj123
 

Actually it clarifies nothing. It's all speculation and theory anyways. It's all a matter of "choose what you believe". I believe that the stellar alignment has a lot to do with it.


Actually if you believe in science and the scientific method and EVIDENCE, it should clarify everything.

You can check the research and you'll see what I posted is correct.

You can believe anything you like but you can't change factual information based on your beliefs.

What I posted has nothing to do with speculation but is instead supported by solid scientific principals.

If you believe the research is in error, please feel free to post your own research to redact it. When will you be posting your research?



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:50 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 

A good arguement except for the fact that you are wrong about one thing. The "fact" that it is based on is still THEORETICAL SCIENCE. All based on theory.



And our theories and beliefs don't belong in this thread. It has nothing to do with the topic.

[edit on 4-4-2009 by Anuubis]



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by WatchRider
FredT, I think you're out of line on this one.
Caves have served our ancestors before, they could serve us again.


Holycow you sound like my wife. Does she have an account here now?




A mine shaft unsupported by stone may be vulnerable, but I reckon a cave built into a mountain and the like is a whole lot more stable.
Look at where NORAD is for one example.


NORAD at Cheyane mountain is a bit different as its a manamde structure that reinforced and has blastdoors etc.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by Anuubis
Natural caves are very stable. Weather and siesmic activity have seen to that. It would take a serious tremor to make most cave in.


Or a thermobaric weapon, or large penatrator to set up shear waves. The issue would be to determine which is safe etc. Yes ancient ancestors used them but they were confined to near the opening. If we are talking about using caves as a NBC shelter, you will need a cave that you can go pretty deep into to protect yourself. Not as many of those as you would think.




Mines on the other hand are not stable in the best of circumstance. Men bore to find ore, not for stability.



Yep, unless it had been kept up right to the moment you need to use it. Or it was a pourpose built tunnel that had not only reinforcing bolts drilled into the center but a net to catch spall and perhaps reinforced concrete sheathing




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