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Truth vs. Belief

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posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by Rotwang17
Re Seagrass




Forgive me, You are saying that language is what prevents us from understanding and changing our belief systems? Or Truth?


Language is what provides us with fasle constructs like truth. Belief systems are only truth filters, they spit out those truths which instill cognative dissonance and digest those which preserve the false construct.
So you are saying if it doesn't sit well we spit out truth via our beliefs? I agree we preserve the ones we are comfortable with. Preserve them long after they are useful..

How many truths do you suppose we have spit out then?




posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 12:28 AM
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And pardon my ATS manners! Welcome Rotwang!



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by Rotwang17
Language is what provides us with fasle constructs like truth. Belief systems are only truth filters, they spit out those truths which instill cognative dissonance and digest those which preserve the false construct.


"Take the art out of it. Belief spits out bull**** that supports itself"

Art(belief is a part of art), to me, is more truthful than numbers. Art is a reflection of emotion, and to me if you have no emotion, you may as well be a computer. If all you believe in is numbers then your perspective is very limited. To me, emotion is FAR more 'human' than numbers. Sometimes I feel like through science we are giving up our humanity. Sure humanity is horrible in many ways, but I feel that numbers are far more horrible in their coldness. If there is a GOD I sincerely hope that he is not completely number-based, because I am 1.

1 with the universe and everything. I am 1 of 6,000,000,000(?). If computers are added into our population... well I have no idea how many computers there are in the world.



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by seagrass
Ok, if your theory on rapists is correct.. then if we didn't have good and bad in peer groups and this would stop rapists. Sexual abuse etc. Sex is a HUGE factor in our social problems. Seeds, mystery, or good feelings aside. We have huge barriers to cross there in terms of our beliefs. I feel this is partially due to our religious structures/concepts.

Can we bridge our duality? Do we even want to. Is it boring not to have these extremes?
People seem to have an aversion to being average anymore. They want to be "special". I like average. Nothing wrong with average. I am average in most ways. I don't have a problem with it most days. Can't find the corkscrew....



I think that good/bad is blurred in peer groups. It's about conquest. It's about 'Male.' Has nothing to do with good or bad(unless someone wishes to apply a label).

Your second part is... Everyone thinks they are special, but as I put in a previous post, I am 1 in 6,000,000,000(?) special people. I am special because I "want" to be average... see? ooo
or do I see?

Individuals all coming together to state their side of the story. Sometimes their "view" can be boxed into a certain group of ideals, etc. I remember the Predator vs. Prey being a line... and now we know it's more of a web.

The whole world knows the truth but they won't give up some of their part of the story, so that it fits with everyone elses part of the story. Why? because they're "special."



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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Howdie seagrass,

Thanks for the welcome, I feel that in spirit we are in agreement about belief systems being sophisticated cognative filters, but belief systems are also byproducts of human culture. Children are not born with these filters in place, they have to be manufactured. Schools, religious institutions, the mass media etc., etc., are the organs which begin the construction of these complex filters. The building blocks are what are known in my trade as memes, or rather, culturally constructed blocks of information which are transmitted out into a select population. Memes may vary in their size and structure from simple phrases to complex multi-episodic tales. Once a belief system becomes deeply entrenched within a culture it is only natural that the language changes to conform to that structure. A good example of this are allusions such as an Achilles Heel or a Trojan Horse. If we were to translate these terms flat out into Mandarin, they would make absolutely no sense. The stories that they allude to provide us with a definition.

This process also impacts our scientific understanding of the world. The concept of a circle is a good example. Is there such a thing as a true circle? This concept in the Western Tradition can be traced back to Euclidean geometry around 300 B.C. Can we find a real circle in nature? Is it even possible to make one? Let's suppose we tried with all the best instruments that the 21st Century has to offer, OK. Now, let's put it under an electron microscope. What do we see? Is the circumference obeying the rule of 2 x Pi x Radius? No, because what we see under the electron microscope is a fractured border filled with almost an infinate amount of jags, nicks and barbs. Here we see the failure of both mathmatics and language in describing a constructed human Ideal. Yet they are still teaching our children these artifical constructs in the very same manner that they teact them constructs like God and Heaven.

The basic premiss of Naïve realism is that the world is as it appeares to out senses. If this were true then the very concept of an illusion could not exist. In fact, is not our ideal of a circle just exactly that, an illusion?



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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Being a Christian Mystic ....I just couldn't withhold the temptation to chime in on this one.....

Everyone always get to this level ....of saying tall these things are just beliefs.

Personally, in the beginning of being a Chriistian, I believed in God, Jesus, heaven ...then I experienced these transcendent spiritual realities directaly ....at that point I knew them as truths ...these direct experiences.

SO from then on I was a Christian Mystic ....because all the other Christians around did not understand my experiences ...the only ones that shared what I had were mostly mystics and a few rare gems in the pentacostal and monastery world.

I believed at first, then went beyond belief and experienced the truth. Even all my friends and family saw the changes in me ....even my co-workers call me the "mystical space cadet" or "the eyes that have seen infinity"

SO call them beliefs all you want ...I know that at least in Christianity ...there is a ton of truth that eventually gets dropped on you like a ton of bricks of you go deep into it.

At this point in my path, I am exploring Union with God, or Non-duality ...also a philosophically discussed as a truth and as the "original state" This state very few Christians ever reach besides in monasteries and saints. Its also something discussed in Taoism and Dzogchen ....but now Im discussing more truths beyond words so there really is no point to go further no is there?



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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RE: dominicus

Can you explain this a little further...


Everyone always get to this level ....of saying [t]all these things are just beliefs.


For now I'll assume that what you mean is that you are not required to offer any objective evidence of your claim of a supernatural being and therefore I should accept that because of your subjective experiences? I'm not saying that your subjective experiences are in any way false, made up or imaginary, I've had some rather profound subjective experiences myself. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I want to know how these subjective experiences affect the growth of traditional systems of belief. That is, how these traditional beliefs systems deal with objective information which contradict suppositions which are drawn from these subjective experiences, for example, how the Roman Catholic Church dealt with Galileo and the theory of Copernican heliocentrism.

We know the outcome of this argument, but how did the Church explain the objective reality of the movement of the planets? How was this incorporated within the body of Christian beliefs and better yet how were these concepts portrayed? The competing concept to that of Copernican heliocentrism was known as the Music of the spheres. I feel it is just as important in understanding both concepts as opposed to blindly accepting just one as the "truth."

[edit on 4-4-2009 by Rotwang17]



posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by seagrass
 


Truth

The word truth has a variety of meanings, from honesty, good faith, and sincerity in general, to agreement with fact or reality in particular. The term has no single definition about which a majority of professional philosophers and scholars agree, and various theories of truth continue to be debated. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective, relative, objective, or absolute. This article introduces the various perspectives and claims, both today and throughout history.

Source : Wikipedia

Jeeeeshhh ! What a confusing mess !

IMHO, it's really pretty simple. Consider the following -


Either life is a fortuitous accident which occurs entirely at random and has absolutely no significance whatever, or life is not an accident ( fortuitous or otherwise ), is not entirely random and does have significance.

It is impossible for both alternatives to be true.

Source : vv

Human beings have a very special gift for determining truth. It's that funny feeling we get right inside ourselves somewhere around the heart-level. This 'little voice inside' is always right !

Of course, for the most part we've all been trained our entire lives to ignore this part of ourselves, especially when it comes to 'questioning authority', to believe our lives are the result of 'random chemical processes,' for instance and so on, but that 'little voice' is still in 'there,' waiting very patiently.


We just need to 'unlearn' 'everything' we've ever been 'taught' about ourselves, and then we'll be 'back on track,' and able to 'access' this 'wisdom' we were all born with.

On the other hand, if what you 'really intended' to consider in this thread is 'epistemology,' fegettaboutit !



That's a bottomless black-hole of rationalistic gibberish that leads absolutely nowhere good !



posted on Apr, 5 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by caballero
Theres no such thing as truth.


There are such things as facts though ... if you disagree then try
sticking your hand in a fire or jumping out of a plane without a parachute.



posted on Apr, 5 2009 @ 08:26 AM
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reply to post by caballero
 



They believed it to be true


And there it is.

IMO, truth can only ever be relative and even then it may not be true, only true to you. For instance, I am typing this at home, on my laptop, this is the truth to me. For you, the truth isn't even I typed this on a laptop, you have to believe me, for it to be considered truth.

My mum is in work, for me this is a truth, yet I only believe that she is in work, I do not know she is in work, this truth is only relative to her, as she is experiencing it.

Then we can get into the whole perception of truth, from lies to reality, we only percieve objects due to our senses, our eyes can only process a tiny fraction of the known reality, it is a veil we see.

EMM



posted on Apr, 5 2009 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by Rotwang17
 

earlier I said, "Everyone always get to this level ....of saying all these things are just beliefs.

WHat I meant by that is that originally before getting into the whole Christian mystic thing ...I also thought that all these religions were fairy tails, made up beliefs, and that people needed something to believe in for them to have hope, a future, something to hold on to.

But then after having done pretty much everything there is to do in this world, having loved and lost that love, good jobs w/ big money then let go, my own place, nice cars, traveling, drugs, sex, etc ......all of it was empty. I thought to myself, "is this it?" There has got to be more, something else something beyond all this. I got philosphical.

After that I sat down and prayed, I said "Hey God, if you are there and you are real, then let me know" I was serious about this inquiry. Very next day, an old friend from high school who I havent talked to for 3 years calls me up to see how Im doing and to see if I want to start doing Bible studies.

He didnt hear that prayer the day before, nobody else heard it to send him a message to come preach to me. Perhaps there is a God? I was astonished at this so I sat w/ the guy and did these Bible studies for 14 months.

I took it all in as a spiritual scientist. I found out that if you go deep enough into this Bible, you will eventually experience sets of subjective experiences (A, then B, then C, etc) I went into it all a skeptic having no idea nor never believing any of these direct experiences would happen to me.

But the low and behold, I go through all those things, beyond religion, beyond words, beyond logic/reason/intelligence ...there lies a whole existence, being, the now, timelessness, loss of fear of death, ego death, dissolution, a whole new mode of being. The ways that Christ was, were now operating in me and it was unbelievable at first and took some time to get used to.

I went from self motivated, career oriented, ambitious mover/shaker ....to wanting to leave everything behind, enter a cave or monastery, and ponder this new way of being and loving for the rest of my earthly existence.

So what I found is subjectivity can be truth. You have all these spiritual scientists in Christianity (though you do have to dig for them) who say that if you dig deep enough into Jesus' teachings will get to a place beyond belief and faith .....to a place where you are experiencing it first hand and you "know" it is real.

How one interprets or what colored glasses they see these experiences and explain them through can vary. The fullness of these experiences can vary also, 1% to 100% of it all can be taken in or given to you.

Also, having been "there" and tasted these "experiences" I can also guide one into the proper atmosphere and way to approach all of this stuff into also receiving all these experiences. I have done so, with a few people, and they all say the same thing once they are tasting these truths, basically, "WOw man ....it's so beyond anything anyone could ever say or know"

You want objectivity, sure ok: All those before me that said this was real and if you seek A then you will experience B. Also, all my friends, family, and coworkers seeing the 360 degree change in my personality, likes/dislikes, got into quantum physics/mechanics, something you would never catch me reading before, meditation, candles, incense, etc

When I had this Holy Spirit indwelling me, at the time my roommates came to me and told me there is a presence, some kind of spirit floating around the house and they were in shock.

Coworkers began calling me space cadet, for staring off into the distance pondering these new experiences, and one said I have "eyes that have seen infinity"

Would you conclude these things to be objective??? If 2 or more are sharing the same exact experience, wouldn't that be objective? If truth is truth then whether objective or subjective or neither it matters not to truth.

Also, I dont care how the church reacts to anything. The majority of the church is made up of regular blokes still using logic/reason to operate, get offended, react certain ways, etc. Those who are experiencing God are resting in the knowing of God's reality. There is no reaction necessary, everything will work itself out. Arguing and me vs. you is unnecessary.

Religion vs. spirituality is what im talking about here. WHen I had my experiences, the theology professors and preachers and my own teacher rejected me, and asked if my experiences were from the devil, and other things...these guys had no clue and they were college theologian professors.

Religion uses logic and reason and takes a side, whereas spirituality is the direct experience of God where taking sides is unnecessary and operating beyond logic and reason is a reality. Even Jesus was attacking religion.

How the church reacts/reacted to Copernican heliocentrism matters not when you put into perspective the whole battle of religion vs. spirituality, which basically boils down to speculation vs. knowing/experiencing. Self explanatory.

Better yet ask the mystics/the direct experiencers what they thought of anything that popped up in philosophy, science, education. You'll see love, and acceptance, and non-judgement, and openness.

As a matter of fact it was a mystic sometime around 2000 B.C. named Kanada who first proposed that matter is made up of atoms. It wasnt religion or science that proposed this first, but a guy who was claiming to experience divine realities and God.

So if you strip away every belief there is and rest in just being, in the now, you will find that time is an illusions (a truth) you will find that behind everything there exists a presence, all pervading, all being, all knowing, all experiencing. It is beyond logic and reason and so to experience this, you do have throw your reactions and analyzing out the window and strip yourself of everything "you think" you are to just be and to just experience these realities.

Thats what Jesus came to do, to simplify, to destroy false values, and separation ...to get people back to just being in the now and experiencing God. But people took this truth and turned it into a huge religion where many of the followers haven't a clue as to whats going on.

Also self inquiry into truth. Forget relativeness ...thats not truth. Truth doesnt need relativeness, because it is so no matter what.

But at this point non of this matters. We are a bunch of rubber duckies arguing words, each having different judgements as to what each word means, lost in translation. And there is truth watching it all laughing.



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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Imagine appearing here, out of nowhere. How am I going to function? What I need is a guide/story…something which I can build into a map/instruction manual. It need not necessarily be precise in every detail. Since all it has to do is to work sufficiently effectively to keep me alive. Humm…seems to me that everyone else around here has their own instruction sheet too. But not a single pair are an exact match. Which isn’t a major problem. Unless everyone shares the mistaken belief that their operating manual is the one and only original.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by seagrass
 


The only truth that I know, is that I know nothing. Everything is subject to scrutiny. Like you said, Science and Religion both tend to rewrite what they know as being true as time passes. How many times do they have to do that before we can all agree that we don't know what is going on?

I think that science is great for making observations but many people tend to follow it like a religion.

In your OP, you mention death as being something that we can all agree on. I don't even think that is true. You can't really discuss death without getting to the question of "what happens when we die?" Then you get right back to the 1,000,000 different groups of people telling you what "really happens" or what the truth about death is. Scientists tell you one thing, Christians another, Atheists yet another....etc.

There is something to be said for blind faith though. To people who are able to do that, the world is probably a better place. I am sure the religious person sleeps better at night knowing that they are sleeping under the watchful eye of God. The scientist is happy with the order of the world. The die hard republicans are happy knowing that when they get back in power, that they can undo all of the damage that the socialist liberal democrats have done...... and on and on. It can be difficult not having faith in anything.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 08:39 AM
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I've always thought these quotes were apt for discussions like this:


Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition.
Carl Sagan

Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science? ... No other human institution comes close.
Carl Sagan.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 08:46 AM
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Carl Sagan is wrong.
This is a human experience, so it is most definitely centered on humans. We know it is. It is our playground. It is the only way we have to look at it. From our human perspective.
And science is not more accurate than any religion. They are two different ways to explain what we don't know. Which is much.

Our beliefs are ours because of both. What we see in the natural world and what we feel from outside of it. We try to bring them together to make some sense of it. But both are only attempts.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by seagrass]



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by Karlhungis
 

You are right Karl. I didn't mean it that way. Just the only thing I could think of that we can't argue about. That this will end and then who knows what happens after. Then again it is possible that someone is immortal. We haven't tried that yet.
It is amazing to me how many versions of truth there can be.
If you change your belief it seems your truth changes with it.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by seagrass
So why do we persist on arguing beliefs that can't be proven as truth?
Why do we get so angry when another wont agree with our belief system?


Because people don't like to think they are wrong, or be wrong.
It get's very frustrating when people quote this and that from scriptures and say it is the truth........It is the only truth.

As you say, it's a belief.
The only truth you can have is your own truth.... in your own heart and mind... you can never fully understand someone Else's truth...or "feel" it.

Or as Nietzsche said "All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses"






What are your truths? Not your beliefs....
Do we really have that many?


Mine are silly and petty.... there are no magical definitive truths.

It will rain.

You will get taxed.

People will be born.

People will fall in love

You get the picture


Interesting thread though


[edit on 13/4/09 by blupblup]



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 10:46 AM
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Honestly, I have always believed that absolute truth is unattainable. I think that every belief system has bits and pieces of the truth, but not the whole, or ultimate, truth.

We, as humans, do not have the awareness to see the "full picture." It is unfortunate that those who think they have the "full picture" choose to ostracise those who have different bits of the truth....



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by seagrass
 


isn.t truth changing according to the knowledge we gain?

when being a little kid it is not only our strongest belief that our parents know evertything and they can achieve anything for us - it is from the point of view of a child also the ultimate truth in the life of a kid.
and it has to be this way - otherwise surviving would be very difficult

but this truth as well as all the other thing we as individuals but as well as mankind in general chage through our lifes - according to the knowledge we gain.

a couple of centries ago people knew it was impossible to move faster than a man was able to run! today we know it is not true anymore - even some cars have been able to run as fast as a rocket and speeds up to 200 km/hour are quiet common.

so what is the truth?
is there an ultimate truth? i don.t know

all i know is that mankind is learning from the first to the last breath - as an individual, as society and as a species.
we keep on learning if we want or not!



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 10:22 AM
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I believe so. Truth is one of those things that is subject to change. Absolute truths remain behind the veil. But since we love to learn and experience, it is a goal more than an end. An adventure.



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