Its time to defeat the powers that be - by adopting communisim!

Originally posted by count66

and what better incentive is there then to keep the wealth you generate in your own work and to also allow the excess wealth to be used to have a fair and equal society where we all have an equal chance.

Equal chance for all to be poor, go hungry, and suffering equally....

Originally posted by count66
For example the 4th international which is the international body as first established by Trotsky for international communism only has a stated aim of nationalism the top 500 companies in the world.

Which is part of what TPTB want to do...nationalize everything and implement full control over the world....

Originally posted by count66
It doesn't demand the total abolition of private enterprise - only the fair distribution of wealth - the workers having a say in their own enterprise and the even handed use of resources for the benefit of all rather then the current system where the few only benefit.

Yes it does, since all property must belong to the state, which claims to be the people, but it is not. There is no private ownership in Communism...

My grandmother who is 78 years old once in a while has to convince the Communist state to allow her, and the rest of my family there, which she shares the house with most of my aunts, and uncles, and cousins, to stay in the house which belonged to my family for generations, and the house is not huge, nor the house of rich people...

This is because the state has the decision of who needs what sort of house, and where, and not the people....



[edit on 3-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Uh. If we as a nation converted to Communism we'd effectively provide for the 5% of the Government instead of the Debt collectors. And they'd probably even spend our money more thoughtlessly.

So no, Communism isn't the solution. Being a responsible spender is the solution. Don't buy something you know you can't afford. That's what got this country in a financial hold in the first place!

Look how Communism worked out for the Soviets!
Corruption is going to be at every level of Government no matter what their ideology is. It's just that with Communism, the full power is invested in the Government.

Why should everyone but the Government have to suffer? That's still unfair for me.

[edit on 4/3/2009 by FadeToBlack]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Again you do not seem to understand the concept of true communism.

See my above post on Trotsky and what he stood for - communism without democracy is dead - he virulently opposed stalinism and other forms of autocratic dictatorship and was killed for his beliefs.

True communists are those of the 4th international which always opposed the tolitarian regimes you speak off and which were not communist.

Originally posted by kindred
The whole problem with humanity is the obsession with materialism. It's time for humanity to grow a spiritual backbone and I'm not talking about organized religion. There's enough love to go round for all, but for some reason, humanity only wants to hate something or someone.

It's not the system of government that's flawed, it's humanity.

The flaws of humanity is what makes us humans, otherwise if everyone thought the same way we would all be robots, and not humans.

You live in the human world so you can experience it, denying it, is denying the experiences you are supposed to go through, and denying yourself, and the choices others reach for themselves.

I think that both capitalism and communism are not good and must evolve to another system that adapt better with human nature. This is going to be a gradual transition and it will take a very long time until the achievement of an ideal social system.

Surley a republic is the best form of rule. I dont mean so called republics like the USA which is actualy a democracy and forces you to have an over bloated goverment by providing the illusion of a choice between red and blue.

All there should be is rule of law that protects the people from harm.

No taxes
No control other than basic law like the prevention of murder, theft ect.

I kind of resent the fact that I was born into a society where I have to take part in paying tax, need a passport to get a bank account, need a bank accout to get a job ect.

A repbulic is a society based on almost total liberty to the individual, you have the option to pay tax if you want to reap the benefits of health care and so on.

I think this it what the USA pretty much used to be which is probably how it became such a powerful and in the most part great country (im english so not to sure about day to day America). These days it has become bloated by big corperations literally paying for politicains to rule even though they may not be fit to lead. Goverment has pretty got in the way of the every day Joe who want to make it.

The American dreams is over!

reply to post by FadeToBlack


Communism sees the withering of the state and eventually of the central government - instead we would have true democracy through the voting of the workers at a factory and company level and so on up the scale.

All wealth generated by a company would be distributed among its workers as voted for by the workers - see the many co-operatives throughout the world who already operate this system.

Communism states that if the wealth generated by the people is kept by the people then there is no need for a government spend.

If there is a need for schools, then the people build them and the money earned by that building programme goes back to the people who worked to build the schools - so not only does society benefit but also the people who worked for society. If you remove the need for profit then work is carried out because of a real need rather then a desire to increase your own capital at the expense of others.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by count66]

Communism, Capitalism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, Hoxhaism, Repulic, Socialism, Democratic, Republican etc... None of these will work when power driven leaders mess them up. Communism is not for me or my children. It takes away individuality and the right to pursue your own happiness. If I want to move to another State or city then I have the right to do that without permission. With all these factions there is always only a few people over a large population. The Constitution of the United States is a good thing but it's been whittled down slowly by these baby boomer flower children who are in power now. These flower children own the media and serve as anti-Americans in the Untied States Of America.

Over the centuries many people have become lazy, worthless humans who feed off of others hard work. These people along with the flower children need to go. I don't care where they go as long as it's out of the United States. Term limits on all political positions are a must and a fair taxing system would rid everyone of all the hassles and tax paying money that it takes to file the unlawful mess. I've also seen that it takes a lot of money to run for a political position. It's time to stop the BS and every citizen should be able to run without all the nonsense spending in advertisement etc... There should be a certain amount to spend and if you've gone over that amount then you're not right to lead our country.

As for Communism again, No way.

Originally posted by count66

Again you do not seem to understand the concept of true communism.
......................

Again you are the one not understanding that your confused utopia never works, and will never work....

You think you have reached enlightement by reading the Communist manifesto, which in fact has only brainwashed your mind.

Communism, and the Communist Manifesto itself are flawed to the point of oppression by volunterism. At least at first, when people like yourself believe in the Communist manifesto, only later to learn the truth about Communism.


[edit on 3-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by count66


Trotsky killed his own people!
He was worse than Stalin!
Trotsky: The Secrets of World Revolution

reply to post by Clearskies


Trotsky was killed by Stalins assassins with an ice pick to the brain in Mexico

reply to post by count66


What was his real name?
hint: It wasn't Trotsky!

Originally posted by count66
reply to post by Clearskies

 

Trotsky was killed by Stalins assassins with an ice pick to the brain in Mexico

All Communists trying to spread their own version of the same dictatorship....

Castro tried to do the same, just like Chavez is now trying to do the same, just like every Communist dictator tries to do the same...

Look at Communsit Russia, and China, they are uniting to spread their own forms of Communism by creating a new world economy in which China, and Russia will be the main powers...

On the other hand you have the Communists in power in the United States who are trying to spread their own view of what Communism should be, and claiming there should be a one World Government, and a One World economy..

[edit on 3-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by Red_Fox
Communism?

Do you like being free?

Free? Did you say free???

...I'm sorry, but political correctness, supression of freedom of speech, patriot act, cctv, stealth-tax WHAT DID YOU SAY???

Be inder no illusions - we are not free. Whichever way you look at it.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Of course it may not work but its the most fair system I have read about and I would love to see it given a real chance.

Something has to change and we have tried capitalism - an utter failure,

We have tried republicanism - an utter failure

We have tried Fascism- an utter failure

We have tried autocratic socialism - an utter failure

So what do we do next then - its easier to criticise a position but you have as of yet offered no other alternative.

This thread was opened to create debate more then anything.

I would love to hear any other opinions which some people have offered o a new alternative. The world has to change - the poverty globally is abhorrent to anyone with human decency.

The world is not set up fairly or evenly and the illusions of having freedom today are a myth. Those of us lucky enough to live in the developed nations are enslaved by debt and the rest of us are enslaved by poverty all of which is driven by corporate capitalism which currently seems to have the governments of the world in the palms of their hands - you only have to look at the G20 resolutions.

Failure of Capitalism, let's go Communism. The reason "Capitalism" is failing in this country, is because we are not practicing Capitalism. The socialist reforms (and since you are calling for communism I'm going to assume that you know Communism is extreme socialist reform) are what have caused the turbulence in our system. The fact that the government is getting so involved in our economy is causing problems.

The Idea of Capitalism is that you keep whatever you can earn. Typically, those that work hard receive better profit. In a free Market, you have the option to enter and exit the market as you please. The entering part is starting to fail because the government has put more and more regulations and requirements of starting a business (so they can tax your eyeballs out) that there is no more incentive. The government interfering and seizing these big corporations is disrupting the market. Especially when, you have a CEO that has zero risk factor whatsoever 'cause he was appointed to the company by some government court jester.

With private enterprise is that while you can enter and exit the free market as you choose, you also do it at your own risk. When the risk sits entirely on the shoulders of the people (Which would happen if the government minded its own damn business and quit "bailing" their buddy's out) then these people are less likely to make stupid decisions. It's into the middle of a busy street and doing 20 jumping jacks. You only did it because you expect the EMT's can bail you out.

It's simply responsibility that most people seem to lack these days. In which case, would make communism fail even further. With everyone's money (and rights) being placed in the hands of a supreme authority and expect that authority to do with it what they feel like. Sound's dumb to me. Like I've seen it somewhere before, oh wait, AIG bailout! The taxpayers sent money towards AIG to bail out their company and look how they decided they wanted to spend it. But who cares right? It's not like they have anything to lose cause it isn't their money they are draining.

Blaming Capitalism is like blaming the kid with the baseball bat for putting a baseball through your window. When in reality his buddy standing next to him saying "he did it!" after shoving the bat into his hands is the one who is guilty.

In it's purest form, the only time communism truly ever worked was in some of the world's "primitive" cultures such as the Lakota or the Khanty. Then again, who am I or anyone else to refer to the native cultures of the world as "primitive". This labeling (i.e. primitive... civilized... etc.) is something that those of us in the western world have been brainwashed with. Truth be told, one could look at the inner dynamics of these tribal peoples and note that the simplicity of these cultures, prior to the encroachment of the technology laden Europeans, have a very 'IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT' appeal.

Somewhere along the line, mostly founded in the world's first "Empires", the creation of specific currencies, technology, and layered social structure found their way into the mindset of those of us living as part of what we now call the "civilized" world. Money makes the world go 'round and it has been that way for about 3000 years. Currency... this entity of wealth measured in dollars, euros, yen... is how we as a planet have spent the last couple of centuries trying to get along and get ahead. Legally or illegally, some people obtain more than others. Very few obtain a great deal of the stuff. We have been trained to love it. We have been trained to do whatever it takes to get as much of it as possible.

Even in the so-called communist societies of the past, money could be used to curry favor with even the most hard line Bolshevick Link to Information. Of course, I digress. This link just poses another popular conspiracy theory regarding who might be responsible for the rise of the Soviet Union but that is another topic. Of course, some may say that it is anti-Semitic but again, it is not my theory. In defense of the vast numbers of Jewish people who want to live in a world of peace as do I, it is not unreasonable to assume anybody with serious bucks, regardless of race, religion, or nation would want to do whatever they thought was necessary to maintain control of their own little worlds. I am an American. It does not make me a Rockefeller.

We cannot un-bite the forbidden fruit. We cannot take back 30 pieces of silver (yes, yes, I know that Judas tried to take it back but he still sold out his teacher and best friend, ultimately hanging himself anyway which means he could not spend it.) We cannot go back to the 17th century and vaccinate the native peoples of North America against the scourge of smallpox. We cannot un-drop 'fat man' and 'little boy'. What is the alternative?

We can have a hope that those of us alive today will make wise decisions regarding life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (funny that there is no mention of money in those timeless words.) We will share the values of honor, peace and love with our children, in the best ways we each know how without taking away their God-given freewill. We will understand that it is okay to be the best at anything we want to be as long as we don't hurt each other along the way (or at least try as best we can). We can remember that tomorrow is promised to no one. And finally we can choose: Do I live each day as it were my last as a greedy, Darwinistic member fighting to be at the top of the food chain.... or do I make strides to acknowledge that money has no true value if what I truly cannot be measured in dollars and cents?

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

~Confucius

Yes we need a change.
I would consider a change to a more resource based system a good thing. And to make abuse of power much more complicated it should be de much more decentralized (I like the model of the Greek Polis).

Originally posted by count66

Of course it may not work but its the most fair system I have read about and I would love to see it given a real chance.

It is not... it is a system that declares those that are put in power have all the power, because that is part of the stages to reach the so called "perfect Communist state...

In your utopia, children are indoctrinated to follow the party line, and if the state believes a child is being neglected the proper indoctrination by his/her parents, the state takes the child and makes sure the child is fully indoctrinated...

Originally posted by count66

Something has to change and we have tried capitalism - an utter failure,

Capitalism worked until the Communists got in power, and have been implementing Socialist programs, and want to nationalize the whole banking system to reach this perfect utopia, also known as the "Permanent Revolution"...

Originally posted by count66
We have tried republicanism - an utter failure

It wasn't a failure, people got rights, and people lived happily, until the Communists wanted to take over, and Socialist programs were slowly introduced into the Republic...That's when the REpublic began failing, because of the Socialist/Communist programs and ideas you, and people like you have implemented, and the ones you and others like you want to implement.

Originally posted by count66
We have tried Fascism- an utter failure

Fascism is Communism of the Corporation...

Originally posted by count66
We have tried autocratic socialism - an utter failure

That's becaue it is a stage of the failure of the Communist system...

Originally posted by count66
So what do we do next then - its easier to criticise a position but you have as of yet offered no other alternative.

We keep the Republic alive as the forefathers of this nation fought for it...as for the rest of the world, let the people of those o#ries deide what they want, and if they want help they can ask for it as long as they don't demand the Republic of the United States to follow the international community in becoming part of the International Communist Coalition...

Originally posted by count66
I would love to hear any other opinions which some people have offered o a new alternative. The world has to change - the poverty globally is abhorrent to anyone with human decency.

And by implementing the "Permanent Revolution" internationally, you will spread poverty over to everyone in the world... That's what Communism does, it makes everyone equally poor, everyone equally oppressed, unless you are part of the Communist system, and you bow to the system...

You want to solve the world's problems by implementing the worst form of government that has ever existed internationally...


[edit on 3-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by Dienekes


Your reasoning however has one fatal flaw.

In order for the free market to work - everyone has to have equal access to resources so that they can trade evenly and fairly and currently there isn't a chance of that happening.