I don't see anything wrong with communism. Only thing wrong with communist countries is that the governments are like dictatorships... although that
has to do with the form of government rather than society.
Its time to defeat the powers that be - by adopting communisim!, page 33
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reply posted on 10-4-2009 @ 01:55 PM by count66
reply to post by consciencious observer
Yeah - that would be cool.
Post away and I'll have a read too.
Cheers
Yeah - that would be cool.
Post away and I'll have a read too.
Cheers
reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 02:06 PM by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
Well why should a rich person pay more taxes than a poor person. Rich people usually use less government services than a poor person, they contribute more to society (usually), etc...
I think they should divide up the cost of government equally among all of us. I bet if we all had to pay an equal amount (our FAIR share) nobody would be all gung about making government bigger.
Well why should a rich person pay more taxes than a poor person. Rich people usually use less government services than a poor person, they contribute more to society (usually), etc...
I think they should divide up the cost of government equally among all of us. I bet if we all had to pay an equal amount (our FAIR share) nobody would be all gung about making government bigger.
reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 02:34 PM by EarthCitizen07
Originally posted by SGTChas
reply to post by snidr
Oh, so all the problems of the DDR were caused by the evil capitalist countries that surrounded them? You need a heavy dose of reality; it was the handouts and funding from the evil capitalist countries that KEPT socialist nations alive when their production quotas failed. The United States sent millions of metric tons of grain and other food stuffs so the socialist republic peoples did not starve due to their own 'collective' stupidity. WHICH we greedy capitalist were never paid back for. Get a grip!
Further, I have heard the 'we invented every important invention of western civilization' bull before, in the Cafe's of Paris. The French saved the World in both World Wars don't ya know? Just ask them.
[edit on 4/5/2009 by SGTChas]
After reading a post like this(among others) I can sense your hatred for communism and socialism. And no, communism and socialism is not the same thing but most americans think they are because russia and china declared themselves "socialist republics" when in fact they were "communist republics" but did'nt have the balls to openly declare their intentions. Even the germans misused the concept by declaring themselves "national socialists" instead of fascists. Lets face it you can't be socialist and at the same time a racist imperialist because the two are opposites. Socialism has become A GENERIC BAG OF DECEIT for all political ideologies in europe and beyond...sad! TRUE SOCIALISM is a mixture of capitalist and communist ideals, otherwise known as a mixed economy, with tolerance for many ideas and the ability to evolve as necessary. A perfect example was western europe 20+ years ago.
To refute your post I will say capitalism is not necessary evil but in a pure form it has the tendency to BECOME EVIL when left unchecked and can even lead to FASCISM! Anytime we have artificial monopolies regulating government instead of government regulating them it means few people control everything and the rest achieve slave status.
And no america did not save any communist country from collapse. Why would they want to do that when america on one side is fighting communist russia and communist china for world domination? You never help your enemy! How many civil wars have been fought the last fifty years with each side aiding their constituents, directly or covertly? Don't ignore the facts......
reply posted on 12-4-2009 @ 07:14 AM by FadeToBlack
reply to post by count66
If you rid the benefit of making more profit from working harder, the company wont profit that much in the first place. The reason why Capitalism is a much better model from a business perspective is mainly because of hard workers, entrepreneurs, ect. People who make a difference.
Every employee who makes the same amount as their co-worker suddenly loses their incentive to make progress because at the end of the day they know for a FACT that no matter how much they work, they will always make the same.
You get a raise? You get paid the same. You get a job that is difficult? You get paid the same. I mean, comon! Who wants to be a brain surgeon and barely make ends meat?! This totally takes out any motivation. As a nation, you would just eventually wither and die due to lack of any progress.
I argue for Capitalism because of the freedom it provides. Not only that, Communism as a system just doesn't work. We all know Democracy doesn't work due to mob rule, however, a Republic is what makes (or made depending on your perspective) this country a defining influence on the World.
One could argue that it is a bad thing for us to have so much influence, my message is to say that no matter what our country is doing in international affairs today, at the homeland we have much more freedom and prosperity when compaired to other nations.
And that is always a good thing.
[edit on 4/12/2009 by FadeToBlack]
If you rid the benefit of making more profit from working harder, the company wont profit that much in the first place. The reason why Capitalism is a much better model from a business perspective is mainly because of hard workers, entrepreneurs, ect. People who make a difference.
Every employee who makes the same amount as their co-worker suddenly loses their incentive to make progress because at the end of the day they know for a FACT that no matter how much they work, they will always make the same.
You get a raise? You get paid the same. You get a job that is difficult? You get paid the same. I mean, comon! Who wants to be a brain surgeon and barely make ends meat?! This totally takes out any motivation. As a nation, you would just eventually wither and die due to lack of any progress.
I argue for Capitalism because of the freedom it provides. Not only that, Communism as a system just doesn't work. We all know Democracy doesn't work due to mob rule, however, a Republic is what makes (or made depending on your perspective) this country a defining influence on the World.
One could argue that it is a bad thing for us to have so much influence, my message is to say that no matter what our country is doing in international affairs today, at the homeland we have much more freedom and prosperity when compaired to other nations.
And that is always a good thing.
[edit on 4/12/2009 by FadeToBlack]
reply posted on 12-4-2009 @ 07:57 AM by count66
reply to post by FadeToBlack
I would have to disagree on several fronts.
Firstly communism doesn't remove the right to reward for working harder, it merely removes the right to unjust rewards - i.e. paying someone several million a year for which there is no justification.
As for capitalism being the best system to encourage workers - well I have heard a lot of Americans on here decrying Socialism as a stepping stone to communism and how that would lead to people becoming lazy and just sponging off the state.
I have also heard a lot of Americans claiming that their society is the freest and most prosperous - neither of these claims are not backed up when you investigate the facts.
Western Europe have been operating as Socialist Democracies, (Monarchies and Republics) for the past 50 years and their workers are the most productive in the world.
The following table shows the average US$ produced per hour by a worker in each of the relevant countries - the table has been taken from the Conference Board and the Groningen Growth and Development Centre and is based on 2008 figures.
Luxembourg : 57.5
France : 56.6
Belgium : 55.9
Norway : 53.0
Ireland : 51.8
Italy : 50.3
USA : 49.6
Japan : 37.3
As we can see even socialism encourages more productivity then more Capitalist societies such as Japan and the USA.
Why? - its very simple - there is an old motto - a happy worker is a productive worker and where the wealth generated by the worker is returned to either the worker or society such as taxes being used to provide free education and health care as in the socialist societies shown above, then the worker is happier since they know that those basic needs for themselves and their families are guarented no matter what happens.
Secondly I would say that in Western Europe we have as much freedom if not more than many in the US - With the exception of the UK none of these countries allow the government to spy on their phone calls, emails and internet usage.
As for Prosperity, lets have a look at another table;
Countries of the World
Gross National Product (GNP) per capita - 2005
(Wealth levels around the world)
GNP per capita (dollars)
1 Luxembourg 65 602 $
2 Norway 59 768 $
3 Switzerland 54 925 $
4 Denmark 47 363 $
5 Iceland 46 655 $
6 United States 43 743 $
7 Bermuda 41 875 $
8 Sweden 41 042 $
9 Ireland 40 232 $
10 Liechtenstein 39 412 $
11 Japan 38 984 $
Again we can see that the more socialist leaning countries enjoy either greater prosperity in many cases or almost equal prosperity then the more capitalistic societies such as the US and Japan.
This data shows over and over again that the more the state is geared towards the benefit of the worker (the Wealth Generator) than towards the shareholder (The wealth taker) then the society is generally more productive and more prosperous than those societies where the shareholders are king.
Remember capitalism doesn't benefit business - it benefits shareholders and bankers a crucial mistake which is made by many. Business is ran, operated and generates wealth through the efforts of the workers and the owners. After a business has been in existence for a time, in order to expand that business, it must either take on Investors or debt to finance same. This now makes the business beholding not to the owners or workers but the faceless bankers or shareholders which do not have the business really at heart - rather all they care about are the bottom lines and they do not tend to care how those bottom lines are reached. As we have seen in the financial services world, the shareholders will often encourage reckless business practices to grow profits often to the detriment of the business. Also, this has happened before - 1930's - so its not an isolated example.
Socialism and Communism have been programmed into the minds of people as something terrible and evil (particularly in the US) when in fact it is the other way around (capitalism is the evil system) - why has this false indoctrination taken place? - simple - if workers and business owners know the truth then the powers that be will lose their ability to manipulate production, wealth and societies through the machinations of the stock markets. In the capitalist system - they have the power to make of break countries and societies, to enslave citizens to mountains of debt, to gear what is produced by companies to the stock markets needs which are often not compatible to the needs of society - e.g. the lack of production of much needed cheap medical drugs as they would destroy profit margins.
I could go on and on but I think I have made the basic point of my message.
[edit on 12-4-2009 by count66]
[edit on 12-4-2009 by count66]
I would have to disagree on several fronts.
Firstly communism doesn't remove the right to reward for working harder, it merely removes the right to unjust rewards - i.e. paying someone several million a year for which there is no justification.
As for capitalism being the best system to encourage workers - well I have heard a lot of Americans on here decrying Socialism as a stepping stone to communism and how that would lead to people becoming lazy and just sponging off the state.
I have also heard a lot of Americans claiming that their society is the freest and most prosperous - neither of these claims are not backed up when you investigate the facts.
Western Europe have been operating as Socialist Democracies, (Monarchies and Republics) for the past 50 years and their workers are the most productive in the world.
The following table shows the average US$ produced per hour by a worker in each of the relevant countries - the table has been taken from the Conference Board and the Groningen Growth and Development Centre and is based on 2008 figures.
Luxembourg : 57.5
France : 56.6
Belgium : 55.9
Norway : 53.0
Ireland : 51.8
Italy : 50.3
USA : 49.6
Japan : 37.3
As we can see even socialism encourages more productivity then more Capitalist societies such as Japan and the USA.
Why? - its very simple - there is an old motto - a happy worker is a productive worker and where the wealth generated by the worker is returned to either the worker or society such as taxes being used to provide free education and health care as in the socialist societies shown above, then the worker is happier since they know that those basic needs for themselves and their families are guarented no matter what happens.
Secondly I would say that in Western Europe we have as much freedom if not more than many in the US - With the exception of the UK none of these countries allow the government to spy on their phone calls, emails and internet usage.
As for Prosperity, lets have a look at another table;
Countries of the World
Gross National Product (GNP) per capita - 2005
(Wealth levels around the world)
GNP per capita (dollars)
1 Luxembourg 65 602 $
2 Norway 59 768 $
3 Switzerland 54 925 $
4 Denmark 47 363 $
5 Iceland 46 655 $
6 United States 43 743 $
7 Bermuda 41 875 $
8 Sweden 41 042 $
9 Ireland 40 232 $
10 Liechtenstein 39 412 $
11 Japan 38 984 $
Again we can see that the more socialist leaning countries enjoy either greater prosperity in many cases or almost equal prosperity then the more capitalistic societies such as the US and Japan.
This data shows over and over again that the more the state is geared towards the benefit of the worker (the Wealth Generator) than towards the shareholder (The wealth taker) then the society is generally more productive and more prosperous than those societies where the shareholders are king.
Remember capitalism doesn't benefit business - it benefits shareholders and bankers a crucial mistake which is made by many. Business is ran, operated and generates wealth through the efforts of the workers and the owners. After a business has been in existence for a time, in order to expand that business, it must either take on Investors or debt to finance same. This now makes the business beholding not to the owners or workers but the faceless bankers or shareholders which do not have the business really at heart - rather all they care about are the bottom lines and they do not tend to care how those bottom lines are reached. As we have seen in the financial services world, the shareholders will often encourage reckless business practices to grow profits often to the detriment of the business. Also, this has happened before - 1930's - so its not an isolated example.
Socialism and Communism have been programmed into the minds of people as something terrible and evil (particularly in the US) when in fact it is the other way around (capitalism is the evil system) - why has this false indoctrination taken place? - simple - if workers and business owners know the truth then the powers that be will lose their ability to manipulate production, wealth and societies through the machinations of the stock markets. In the capitalist system - they have the power to make of break countries and societies, to enslave citizens to mountains of debt, to gear what is produced by companies to the stock markets needs which are often not compatible to the needs of society - e.g. the lack of production of much needed cheap medical drugs as they would destroy profit margins.
I could go on and on but I think I have made the basic point of my message.
[edit on 12-4-2009 by count66]
[edit on 12-4-2009 by count66]
reply posted on 13-4-2009 @ 01:52 PM by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by count66
Very good post, Count! I will have to look into these numbers and what happens to the money behind the scenes. If they are true you make a good case for socialism being a more effective means to achieve success. Wow, I never thought those words would come out of my mouth.
Very good post, Count! I will have to look into these numbers and what happens to the money behind the scenes. If they are true you make a good case for socialism being a more effective means to achieve success. Wow, I never thought those words would come out of my mouth.
reply posted on 13-4-2009 @ 02:22 PM by justsomeboreddude
Ok Count did a little quick research.
USA most productive in the World, Ireland Second probably because you are so efficient.
Also, I learned Norwegians kick butt as well.
Also, I know this is probably nitpicking, but you cant really count Luxemburg because they only have like 250k people and they are mostly in to banking. Banking is bound to lead to high $/hour/capita.
This whole dollars thing you brought up is interesting. I never really thought about it before, but it is kind of not right to compare that as related to productivity. Like you could be productive as hell at picking bananas, and society needs bananas, but its not going to yeild good per capita or per hour dollars. This is because some things yeild higher profits per hour depending on what you produce. So of course larger countries are going to make a wider variety and average out more than smaller countries.
I will say though that I was suprised to find France legitimately high on the list of productivty. I always think of them as the poster child for this bastardized version of socialism and captialism that we are headed too. So maybe its not going to get as bad as I think. Which has to be good. But I still dont like it one bit
USA most productive in the World, Ireland Second probably because you are so efficient.
Also, I learned Norwegians kick butt as well.
Also, I know this is probably nitpicking, but you cant really count Luxemburg because they only have like 250k people and they are mostly in to banking. Banking is bound to lead to high $/hour/capita.
This whole dollars thing you brought up is interesting. I never really thought about it before, but it is kind of not right to compare that as related to productivity. Like you could be productive as hell at picking bananas, and society needs bananas, but its not going to yeild good per capita or per hour dollars. This is because some things yeild higher profits per hour depending on what you produce. So of course larger countries are going to make a wider variety and average out more than smaller countries.
I will say though that I was suprised to find France legitimately high on the list of productivty. I always think of them as the poster child for this bastardized version of socialism and captialism that we are headed too. So maybe its not going to get as bad as I think. Which has to be good. But I still dont like it one bit
reply posted on 30-4-2009 @ 10:10 PM by charlyv
reply to post by count66
ATS took out my last comment because it was "Unfriendly". So Be it.
Obviously, you never had to fight for this country, because if you did, I am certain that you would have a different point of view. All of that aside, and in a totally new scenario: Go to Wikpedia and lookup "Freedom" and then lookup "Communism" and drop out anything that does not match. It looks like what you get is "Communism". As I said, you would not be able to post such points of view here, because in "Communism", there is no such thing as global posts of your point of view. Take it to the bank, and choke on it. Thanks, CharlyV
ATS took out my last comment because it was "Unfriendly". So Be it.
Obviously, you never had to fight for this country, because if you did, I am certain that you would have a different point of view. All of that aside, and in a totally new scenario: Go to Wikpedia and lookup "Freedom" and then lookup "Communism" and drop out anything that does not match. It looks like what you get is "Communism". As I said, you would not be able to post such points of view here, because in "Communism", there is no such thing as global posts of your point of view. Take it to the bank, and choke on it. Thanks, CharlyV
reply posted on 16-6-2009 @ 03:14 AM by syntax132
Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by charlyv
We are all slaves under capitalism and our style of democracy. There has to be a better way.
What's wrong with discussing the pros and cons of different systems? I think that's really what the OP is about....looking for something better.
I've been doing the same lately. That's when I started learning about a participatory economy based government. I'm not saying I'm done looking. I personally want to learn as much as I can about alternatives to Capitalism. Attempting to guilt people into shutting down the exchange of ideas is not going to do anyone any good.
You're confusing capitalism with corporatism.
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