Its time to defeat the powers that be - by adopting communisim!, page 2

reply to post by mental modulator

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I'm not a socialist, I'm a communist.

I live in Europe which is already a socialist society pretty much everywhere.

Socialism is just another means of supporting capitalism - it just shares a few more of the crumbs from the table of the rich with those of us at the bottom.

reply to post by count66

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But them people will be lazy and rich people will have nothing to make them work hard.

Everyone will become lazy and the terrorists will win with out terroristisms

reply to post by count66

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Well I dont really see why anyone would bust their butts just for a few extra luxuries. But maybe.

As far as people competiting goes. That is what drives people to succeed, put in long hours, spend their resources. If I wanted to pay to have something invented I would start a contest between several groups of talented people and then make the reward huge. This is how you get to the best solution the fastest. This is why the government/military outsources advanced projects to civilian companies. The competition produces better results faster.

reply to post by count66

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It actually shares less crumbs in the end. It is just and illusion. They hand you some extra crumbs and then take back even more in taxes. Plus socialism stagnates the growth of your economy, and makes most of the population government dependent and less free.

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

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We already bust our butts for extra luxuries that we pay way over the top for as we have to pay for profit margins and the costs of companies advertising etc so that they keep their competitive edge.

As for the reward driving competition I agree that is the current scenario as we have all been conditioned to behave that way.

For example, put a hamster in a cage and give it a reward for turning a wheel - if the hamster turns a wheel faster then give it a greater reward.

Its time for humanity to grow up and finally to step out from the animalistic behaviours of our current society.

Communism demands an intellectual and spiritual awakening of the Human race - one whereby the need for advancement comes from a genuine desire to help, to achieve for the sake of achieving.

I know people will say thats not possible etc - but it is - look at the amount of voluntary work ordinary people undertake throughout the world everyday.

Its the current systems organised by the powers that be that keep us trapped in our animalistic chains and make us believe that we are not capable of any better. Competition is another word for steal in human industry.

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by count66

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It actually shares less crumbs in the end. It is just and illusion. They hand you some extra crumbs and then take back even more in taxes. Plus socialism stagnates the growth of your economy, and makes most of the population government dependent and less free.

Exactly, then everyone gets lazy and nobody works, everyone gets a car even if they don't work, then the Islamists take over and its not very good. I also don't want to wear a helmut of any kind, research shows that if you wear a helmut you get even lazier and your brain gets stupider by the resultings. NO thank you socialistisms! I prefer my job at walmart and my other job at mcdonalds thank you much!

reply to post by count66

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This explains it better than I ever can.

The Communist Manifesto became the bible of those who sought to destroy freedom, and subject individual spirit to the dictates of the greater good of the community. Many people around the world came to believe -- and still believe -- that the forcible leveling of society was preferable to individual Liberty. The Communist Manifesto was nothing less than a blueprint to destroy individual liberty and free choice, and return the world to the dark ages of government-run slavery.

www.tysknews.com...

Those who have the urge to dictate to their fellows; who crave the power to rule every aspect of the lives of everyone around them; arrogant enough to believe they are able to 'reinvent' the government created by the Founders; those who consider themselves superior, by virtue of birth or education or overblown ego, to the mere mortals who constitute the People of this nation, do not like the Freedom which our Constitution was created to preserve.

That Constitution was created specifically to reign in petty tyrants such as these, which is why it was necessary to shred the Constitution

Consider the stated goals of the Communist Manifesto:

* Abolition of the family.
* Abolish countries and nationality.
* A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
* Abolition of all right of inheritance.
* Centralization of credit in the hands of the state.
* Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
* Free education for all children in public schools.

reply to post by mental modulator

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Thats socialism not communism.

My thread is debating communism - under communism - there are no taxes, the wealth you generate in your factory is distributed to the workers in that factory - think of a co-op that runs on a multinational level. At the moment the shareholders get all that wealth that you generate - my question to you is - why should that be the case - why can't you get that share which is what communism says.

You still have to work to receive that distribution of wealth from your factory or your company - only those who cannot work for legitimate reasons such as disability or retired workers would be maintained by the rest of us - but the difference is - is that they would be maintained at the same level as the rest of us and not forced to live in sub standard conditions through no fault of their own making

Originally posted by mental modulator
reply to post by count66

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But them people will be lazy and rich people will have nothing to make them work hard.

Everyone will become lazy and the terrorists will win with out terroristisms

That is a myth. It is in our nature to seek to improve ourselves and our environment. However, welfare recipients fear self improvement because they know they will loose their benefits. Unfortunately it makes them look unmotivated and lazy, when in fact they are actually oppressed.

Let everyone have their needs met and some disposable income, without fear of loosing it, and set them free on the road to self improvement and they will improve. In the long run the costs associated are small because you have less crime, less stress, less sickness, fewer courts, fewer prisons, fewer government agencies, etc.

reply to post by infolurker

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The centralisation of credit in the hands of the state means no mortgages which are raised to pay interest and create profits for the mortgage providers.

Centralisation of transport tends to mean that transport is run not for profit - therefore those routes that are needed but are never built because they are not profitable will be built.

abolishment of state means no more wars and should even help abolish racism.

Graduated taxes means the wealthy pay more rather then less taxes so that they contribute their fair share to society rather then hide their earnings in offshore tax havens.

Abolition of private property means not your own home or land but rather the ownership of land for profit, e.g. a second house which you rent for profit or land rented for profit.

Secondly this source is a supporter of Reganomics - one of the main reasons we are in this current economic mess - hardly a great recommendation for trusting this persons economic opinion - quite the opposite I would say.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by count66]

Originally posted by count66
reply to post by infolurker

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Some of the facts stated in the source you pulled this info from are untrue and if you read the manifesto you will see why.

Secondly this source is a supporter of Reganomics - one of the main reasons we are in this current economic mess - hardly a great recommendation for trusting this persons economic opinion - quite the opposite I would say.

Tell the Truth!

Are these the 10 goals of the communist manifesto?

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of wastelands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc., etc.

(Now I wait for the spin... LOL) A dead fish still stinks no matter how much perfume you try to put on it.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by infolurker]

reply to post by count66

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But the thing you dont see is that some people will attain greatness in a capitalistic society. This motivates the rest of us to strive to be better, smarter, faster. It is exciting, it is what keeps us wanting to live. Personally, I would rather be dead then just work to get through life and be handed the same mediocre products as everyone else. It is an eve more pointless existence.

As far as people evolving past their animalistic natures goes, have you ever driven through most of the urban areas of the US? These people are driven by animalistic nature. We are all driven by animalistic nature, some of us just hide it better It is our nature, just like you cant train a crocodile to be a bird, you cant train a human to not want to compete. Its nature. Its part of evolution to strive to be a greater species. It is satisfying.

Now there is nothing wrong with helping others, but if you look most people who volunteer are people who are already successful to a degree.

reply to post by infolurker

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I edited my post,

I actually made an error in getting two different replies mixed up - its 2.20am where I am so am very tired at the moment.

Originally posted by count66
reply to post by mental modulator

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Thats socialism not communism.

My thread is debating communism - under communism - there are no taxes, the wealth you generate in your factory is distributed to the workers in that factory - think of a co-op that runs on a multinational level. At the moment the shareholders get all that wealth that you generate - my question to you is - why should that be the case - why can't you get that share which is what communism says.

You still have to work to receive that distribution of wealth from your factory or your company - only those who cannot work for legitimate reasons such as disability or retired workers would be maintained by the rest of us - but the difference is - is that they would be maintained at the same level as the rest of us and not forced to live in sub standard conditions through no fault of their own making

Ok I see your point with the wealth from a factory being evenly distributed. That is kind of cool. You should start a factory like that. But to do that, those group of people all have to have an equal amount of money to invest in building the factory, r&d, etc... Because I guarntee the guy that laid out all the cash is going to want a bigger share. He would be a fool not to want that.

Now I asume you are going to say the gov'ment would just hand them the resources to build that factory. But that means they would have had to take those resources from someone else, and that guy is going to be a tad peeved.

There has to be taxes to have a government. How would a government sustain itself without taxation?

reply to post by drwizardphd

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Communism is not a failed ideology - that is the conspiracy that we are fed - that it is.

Communism is the true path to liberation and thats why the powers that be truly fear it and so desperately spin this lie.

True communism existed for a mere 10 years, i.e. the first ten years of the soviet revolution before it was killed by a war of attrition by more soliders from more states then were involved in the first world war.

reply to post by drwizardphd

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Ok, he just personally fired the head of GM. If that is not socialism I dont know what it is.

He wants nationalized health care - SOCIALISM.

He wants to tax the rich and upper middle class to pay the poor (lazy) - SOCIALISM.

He wants to Treasury secretary to have the ability to take over any business that he sees as a danger to the economy - SOCIALISM - bordering on communism.

He wants to control compensation levels for employees of civilian companies - SOCIALISM - bordering on communism.

He believes the government can do a better job of providing services to the public than private companies - SOCIALISM.

and the list goes on.....

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

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Such companies do exist - they are called co operatives - look up John Lewis company in the UK.

There would be a need in the first years of communism to redistribute the wealth so that resources could be shared out evenly - remember currently 10% of the population of the world own 85% of the assets - so the current system is a load of rubbish.

At least if the extra resources are shared out so that many people can start a factory which they may never have had the resources to do before they can start generating their own wealth.

How many good people do you know who have the will and the skills to carry on a successful business but who just don't have the resources.

Of course resources would have to be directed to where they were needed - for example you wouldn't want everyone opening the same type of factory.

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

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Ok I checked out the John Lewis company and in the USA we call that employee owned companies. However, this is not communism. John Lewis is a capitalistic company making a profit, by marketing, and in your way of viewing things, over pricing its goods like every other company.

Goods are not generally over priced. There are just a lot of expenses to doing business that a person who is not intimately involved in that business doesnt understand.

For example, I worked for a company when I was in my 20's. I saw all the money they were taking in and thought if I start one of these I will be rich. After I left and started my own company, I guickly realized that most of that money went back out to pay expenses that I never realized existed.

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