Religion? Grow up

Originally posted by silent thunder
I think something very similar is going on when people take these ridiculous reductionst "pro" or "con" stances for or against religion. Their arguments all seem to me to be quite besides the real point.

Have you read the bible? If it were as well written as Shakespeare, I'd read it more often.

Originally posted by Welfhard

Originally posted by silent thunder
I think something very similar is going on when people take these ridiculous reductionst "pro" or "con" stances for or against religion. Their arguments all seem to me to be quite besides the real point.

Have you read the bible? If it were as well written as Shakespeare, I'd read it more often.

Don't be so literal-minded. I gave you a metaphor, not a dinner menu. You've got to savor it, let it grow on you. Or not, if that's your choice.

reply to post by silent thunder


Would you ask me to savour and let grow on me the sex and the city movie?

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Would you ask me to savour and let grow on me the sex and the city movie?

No.

But I'd say its not quite fair to compare the work of one person with a complex system formed of thousands of different imputs over many centuries and including a boutet of forms and facets such as art, literature, music, sensory experience, transcendent spiritual experience, piety, morality, etc.

reply to post by silent thunder


Is rubbish and more rubbish not the same is if it's made in different ways?

Lol, fair enuf. Go, read you dense archaic tome. I've got german homework do.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Is rubbish and more rubbish not the same is if it's made in different ways?

Lol, fair enuf. Go, read you dense archaic tome. I've got german homework do.

We can call "rubbish made in different ways" "recycling."

I honestly don't blame the anti-religious types too much. After all, 99% of religion has been presented poorly by a bunch of fantacs who don't know how to swing with a metaphor, either. You need to grasp the great mythic mindset, which has largely been lost since the Renaissance or so. And you picked a good word there, "archaic." To truly get the religious experience as it was meant to be gotten out of most Western forms of Spiritualty, you have to go far back, not only in your reading but also in your way of seeing, feeling, and responding. It's an almost...atavistic persuit, perhaps it could be said.

reply to post by silent thunder


Well at least someone can enjoy it, I guess; I was always more into classics and Egyptology than religious studies.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


You Said- "Yes but those codes and morals don't pertain to their beliefs regarding gods, the supernatural or the afterlife. Most have morals that develop from their childhood."

Tell me were your parents Christians or grew up in a Christian society? The morals that guide this country are founded greatly upon what the Bible & Ten commandments say. Laws against Stealing, Murder, stuff like that all part of the ten commandments, imagine that. Do you honestly think every culture has the same values and morals? There is no line between right and wrong it is all perspective and a code given to us by our beliefs.

Tell me what is so horrible about believing in something? You obviously do.

Oh and I meant the actual definition not the emphasis added- "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe." And you know if your an atheist when you sign up for Facebook or something what do you put in the religious affiliation box? Atheist.

reply to post by Thelast


"Did you every play the whisper game as a kid? Where something was said from one person to the next, until it went around in a circle?
It usually came back as something completely different than what was originally said. "

Excellent analogy.

Originally posted by asmall89
You Said- "Yes but those codes and morals don't pertain to their beliefs regarding gods, the supernatural or the afterlife. Most have morals that develop from their childhood."

Not much gets past you I can see.

Tell me were your parents Christians or grew up in a Christian society? The morals that guide this country are founded greatly upon what the Bible & Ten commandments say.

Bible and Ten Commandments? Lol. Don't you mean the Egyptian Book of the Dead? No, don't answer that. It'd be instant thread derailment.

Laws against Stealing, Murder, stuff like that all part of the ten commandments, imagine that. Do you honestly think every culture has the same values and morals?

Same morals, I've noticed a trend, but the codes and customs differ.

There is no line between right and wrong it is all perspective and a code given to us by our beliefs.

Yes but the morals, codes of conduct and taboos of society aren't based on my beliefs the same for the reverse. What's more is that modern western society is secular, but morals etc. don't change as fast as the net beliefs of the people therein. The morals that guide your country are founded greatly upon the morals of that guided old England. If you trace it back, the morals we have now, though considerably different, came from the 4 century Roman Empire and Constantine's conversion of Rome to Christianity from paganism. Ergo, our morals are imprinted on us based on the beliefs of people 1700 years ago, once again, morals and codes not based on our own beliefs. But thanks for illustrating my point.

Tell me what is so horrible about believing in something? You obviously do.

Unless your willing to accept that you are almost certainly wrong (almost certainly = infinity minus 1) you're lying to yourself. Tell me again, bearing false witness is 'wrong' right? Even when it's to yourself. And on the flipside, if you aren't willing to accept that you are almost certainly wrong, you are in denial.

And you know if your an atheist when you sign up for Facebook or something what do you put in the religious affiliation box? Atheist.

Yea, because social networking sites prove your point.

Oh and I meant the actual definition not the emphasis added- "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe."

Alrighty [cracks knuckles].
(Paraphrasing) A religion is a set of beliefs about everything/anything. Atheism, with it's "belief" that there is no God, by definition should be a religion, but these is one think making atheism different.

Definition of "belief":

–noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief. (Not hugely applicable due to the use of 'religious' which would make this circular logic.

dictionary.reference.com...

There are things we can 'know' (be reasonably confident) and things we can believe (faith/unfounded confidence). If we 'know' something, it's provable it's based on observation and investigation of the world around us, followed by empirical evidence and reasonable conclusion.
Point is that the atheistic belief that no god exists (or if you wanna get real particular, that god has no regard to humans) is based on the evidence that give us no reason to believe in god. It's a conservative and reasonable conclusion of those not wanting to venture away from the demonstrable.

It's different to all religions because they are based on faith, or belief without evidence. I have to wonder, if your belief is not base on evidence, what is it based on? I can only guess desire and comfort.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Welfhard]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Welfhard]

Yes other societies tend to have similar morals except those cultures who believe/d in cannibalism and human sacrifice, but we're forgetting them aren't we? Or how about how Spartan men had to rape a women to take her as his wife, or had to have homosexual relationships just to strengthen their army (I'm not saying that it's immoral but one shouldn't be forced to). But beside those exceptional few it is an interesting coincidence that most do have the same values. Now don't you think that points to the Universe being organized in a certain way and leading somewhere?

Do you honestly think that we know everything about ourselves and this Universe we live in? That we are just a random thing that happened that the universe was just entirely random? Is gravity random? Are the laws of physics random? Is religion random?

So answer me this, why the heck do humans experience NDE's (even if it is a chemical reaction) and see their dead relatives & what not. What is the purpose of that? Once your dead you can't feel anything so there is no need to have a painkiller chem released, yet people still seem to have consciousness even if their dead. And do other animals experience it too, or are we the only ones? To me there is just too many questions still unanswered and with the amazing coincidences or miracles of this world I am inclined to think it is not random and there is indeed some order to the universe. A God or Creator, Consciousness, Intelligence if you will.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by asmall89] Errors

[edit on 3-4-2009 by asmall89]

reply to post by asmall89

Yes other societies tend to have similar morals except those cultures who believe/d in cannibalism and human sacrifice, but we're forgetting them aren't we? Or how about how Spartan men had to rape a women to take her as his wife, or had homosexual relationships to strengthen their army. But beside those exceptional few it is an interesting coincidence that most do have the same values. Now don't you think that points to the Universe being organized in a certain way and leading somewhere?

No, it's called politics. In early days societies had religions which impart guided their codes and customs. How those things affect us today is called anthropology.

Do you honestly think that we know everything about ourselves and this Universe we live in?

No.

That we are just a random thing that happened that the universe was just entirely random?

No. Well, kinda > Semantics.

Is gravity random? Are the laws of physics random?

no.

Is religion random?

No.

So answer me this, why the heck do humans experience NDE's (even if it is a chemical reaction) and see their dead relatives & what not.

A better question is why do Christians see Christ while muslims see Allah, and so on and so fourth. It almost suggests they see what they expect to see. It's called 'Observer-Expectation Effect.'

Once your dead you can't feel anything so there is no need to have a painkiller yet people still seem to have consciousness even if their dead.

Time dilation, what they feel is along time is actually a few seconds, like the reverse of what we percieve when asleep.

And do other animals experience it too, or are we the only ones?

Certainly. Moreso if they have higher brain function.

To me their is just too many questions still unanswered and with the amazing coincidences or miracles of this world I am inclined to think it is not random and there is indeed some order to the universe.

Answer me this question:

Do you want the above quote to be right? About the world? Do you want there to be a god?

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Welfhard]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Welfhard]

And to be quite honest I get tired of arguing about religion because it is so unfair to everyone, since no one can prove it wrong or right. Science does prove some things are natural ocurance but it also proves that the universe is organized, which could be interpreted as proof of a higher power. No one person has all the answers, and everyone does believe in something. It is so unfair to attack religion just as its unfair for religion to attack other religions and science. There are many things to be discovered and I don't think we'll ever have all the answers, at least until we go out into space or die. I believe that everyone should respect each others beliefs/religion and move forward. Is one political party better than the other belief wise? No. Same with religion and what not. A person is not a misguided sheep because they believe in something or nothing.

reply to post by asmall89


Everyone has their right to their beliefs but that doesn't make all beliefs equal.

reply to post by Welfhard


I've heard about seeing what you expect in an NDE, my answer to that is that its all real. What you believe will be what you see. Honestly I don't think God as one being but all consciousness or intelligence of the universe. The people who are religious figures I see just as more enlightened than the rest of us. Do I want there to be a God, Yeah I do, but I don't think it would be one single being like its depicted in the bible and other religions, if that makes any sense at all.

No not all beliefs are equal because some believe in one thing more than others but no belief is ever wrong until its proven wrong, which is why religious beliefs are all equal for the most part, because no one can really prove any of them wrong. Did Jesus exist? Most certainly. Did he do all those miracles? We'll never know. Did Muhammad really have a vision from God or was it just something he ate, we wont ever know. Is the Big Bang theory right, or the string theory? We wont know until we're out there.
It's been real interesting debating you about this, you have brought up good points and I fully understand them, but I just naturally disagree about a few things

Originally posted by sc2300

So im proposing, realise that the thing you belief in is based on hope, not truth. If we really are evolving into a smarter race then you need to realise that you dont know anything. Even Evolution is a religion, a theory to make us feel better. The truth is we probably wouldn't even understand the answer if we knew it. Which is why we should be asking 'what if', not 'it is'.
Nothing will ever be ableto explain it all.

So are you infact offer an alternative that destroys hope?
What are you offer other than this. I'll tell you what you are offering. Nothing. Your truth is that you have nothing. No thing to explain why we are how, how we are here, how we should be while here and what happens after being here.

But look at it this way.

I don't know why atheists bother expressing anything about religion at all.
If we accept atheism and accept there is no G*D and we are instead experiencing a determanistic reality ruled by the nature of the universe and not a G*D, then that very nature, its laws and rules, its parameters etc have determined religion as being a logical aspect of existence expressed by humans. It has determined that our processes as humans would arrive at religious beliefs inspired by a G*D as an expression and as a consequence of cause and effect. So I can consider these religious beliefs as being entirely natural. Along with atheism.
What you would then be argueing about is that nature itself, which has also seen the logic of atheism, is wrong in inspiring religion via the processes involved in humans, so if as an atheist you were critical of religion you create a problem for your own beliefs too. Because if this is the case then Atheism may also be wrong as an expression of nature via the processes of humans. Religious believers would avoid this conundrum by believing that G*D is responsible, Atheist are stuck pondering how nature could be wrong in its processes given each expression of these beliefs are a direct result of natures processes.

So while you may deny the existence of G*D, it is also moronic to argue that a belief in G*D is illogical as there must be a cause for this and a logic in its expression, as from an atheistic persective the very prescence of religion is an obvious aspect of the fabric of reality, an expression of nature itself regardless of any actual G*D existing. Of course this moronic behaviour is not applicable to the logic of a believer of G*D, who accepts a G*D existing, as nature has intended that they believe. Atheist are stuck as describing an effect of nature and its laws as being wrong by criticising religion in any way. Atheist just have to accept religion as it is, as being logical in nature as it is simply and purely a fact of existence.
Religion, purely as an expression of nature, can attack atheist logic because believers accept G*D as determining their existence and not nature, this attack on atheists logic is in and of itself justified as defending nature because atheism is attacking the logic of nature when any atheist criticizes religion, religion that is expressed by human processes determined by nature, its laws and parameters.

Religion is here, it was always here, it will always be here.
Get over it.



[edit on 3-4-2009 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by asmall89
No not all beliefs are equal because some believe in one thing more than others but no belief is ever wrong until its proven wrong,

No you misunderstand what I mean. All have the right to believe what ever but some have plainly wrong beliefs - Hitler believed he was doing the work of God by making a pure race (this is ATS, it won't be hard to research that). Bush believed that it was right to go into Iraq.

These are just wrong on every regard - ethical, logical, whatever, it's just bad.

But if you base your beliefs on something logical and rational, maybe even demonstrable, it's better than basing your beliefs on fantasy or fallacies, like Holocaust deniers and people who assert that the earth is flat etc.

I've heard about seeing what you expect in an NDE, my answer to that is that its all real.

Yes well you can claim what you like about NDE's but you can't use them as evidence of a deity and/or afterlife because they naturalistic explanations.

Do I want there to be a God, Yeah I do, but

You should make sure that your desire isn't what actually motivates you to believe, because if it is, it suggests you are weak (unable to face an uncomfortable reality so you hide in more comforting beliefs.)

I'll tell you something, I wish God was real to- and the afterlife, that would be lovely, but I'm no where near convinced.

[edit on 4-4-2009 by Welfhard]

Sorry to interject into this battle, but...

Perspective is SO COOL...

If moral values are just a process of evolutionary process then the there is no such thing as objective moral values. When the murder of little kids for fun is called "wrong" or "bad" in actuality nothing can be meant more by it than "i dont like that" or "thats not helping humans survive".

On the other hand if there are objective moral values the Christian worldview is the only one that can account for unchanging, immaterial, universal moral laws.

reply to post by Welfhard

Again those beliefs are a point of view (although I agree with you and view them as wrong) but they some really believed they were doing the right thing. Like I said there is no real absolute line between right and wrong, it is only given to us through morals. I definitely don't condone what Hitler did and the holocaust deniers, I even have Jewish ancestors who we think were driven from poland.

About NDE's they do not necessarily have all naturalistic explanations, the most often explanation is '___' but it is only a theory. The capacity to make it in the brain exists but they have no way of proving the theory to be true. There was a case I read about in a recent thread about a woman who was Brain & Vitally dead during a surgery and had an NDE and could recall coversations and the tools used. Also '___' is a drug and like every other drug it is carried through the body by blood, how could it get around if the heart has stopped beating? Same with adrenaline. NDE's are perhaps the biggest mystery and to this day do not have not been proven to be naturalistic.

I must also bring your attention to someone close to me who is a neurologist and has done a lot of research and has worked with a major government organization (I will remain mum on which one) and she still believes in a God. Same with another I know a respected scientist & researcher, is religious.