Originally posted by silent thunder
I think something very similar is going on when people take these ridiculous reductionst "pro" or "con" stances for or against religion. Their arguments all seem to me to be quite besides the real point.

Have you read the bible? If it were as well written as Shakespeare, I'd read it more often.

Originally posted by Welfhard

Originally posted by silent thunder
I think something very similar is going on when people take these ridiculous reductionst "pro" or "con" stances for or against religion. Their arguments all seem to me to be quite besides the real point.

Have you read the bible? If it were as well written as Shakespeare, I'd read it more often.

Don't be so literal-minded. I gave you a metaphor, not a dinner menu. You've got to savor it, let it grow on you. Or not, if that's your choice.

Yes other societies tend to have similar morals except those cultures who believe/d in cannibalism and human sacrifice, but we're forgetting them aren't we? Or how about how Spartan men had to rape a women to take her as his wife, or had to have homosexual relationships just to strengthen their army (I'm not saying that it's immoral but one shouldn't be forced to). But beside those exceptional few it is an interesting coincidence that most do have the same values. Now don't you think that points to the Universe being organized in a certain way and leading somewhere?

Do you honestly think that we know everything about ourselves and this Universe we live in? That we are just a random thing that happened that the universe was just entirely random? Is gravity random? Are the laws of physics random? Is religion random?

So answer me this, why the heck do humans experience NDE's (even if it is a chemical reaction) and see their dead relatives & what not. What is the purpose of that? Once your dead you can't feel anything so there is no need to have a painkiller chem released, yet people still seem to have consciousness even if their dead. And do other animals experience it too, or are we the only ones? To me there is just too many questions still unanswered and with the amazing coincidences or miracles of this world I am inclined to think it is not random and there is indeed some order to the universe. A God or Creator, Consciousness, Intelligence if you will.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by asmall89] Errors

[edit on 3-4-2009 by asmall89]

And to be quite honest I get tired of arguing about religion because it is so unfair to everyone, since no one can prove it wrong or right. Science does prove some things are natural ocurance but it also proves that the universe is organized, which could be interpreted as proof of a higher power. No one person has all the answers, and everyone does believe in something. It is so unfair to attack religion just as its unfair for religion to attack other religions and science. There are many things to be discovered and I don't think we'll ever have all the answers, at least until we go out into space or die. I believe that everyone should respect each others beliefs/religion and move forward. Is one political party better than the other belief wise? No. Same with religion and what not. A person is not a misguided sheep because they believe in something or nothing.

Originally posted by sc2300

So im proposing, realise that the thing you belief in is based on hope, not truth. If we really are evolving into a smarter race then you need to realise that you dont know anything. Even Evolution is a religion, a theory to make us feel better. The truth is we probably wouldn't even understand the answer if we knew it. Which is why we should be asking 'what if', not 'it is'.
Nothing will ever be ableto explain it all.

So are you infact offer an alternative that destroys hope?
What are you offer other than this. I'll tell you what you are offering. Nothing. Your truth is that you have nothing. No thing to explain why we are how, how we are here, how we should be while here and what happens after being here.

But look at it this way.

I don't know why atheists bother expressing anything about religion at all.
If we accept atheism and accept there is no G*D and we are instead experiencing a determanistic reality ruled by the nature of the universe and not a G*D, then that very nature, its laws and rules, its parameters etc have determined religion as being a logical aspect of existence expressed by humans. It has determined that our processes as humans would arrive at religious beliefs inspired by a G*D as an expression and as a consequence of cause and effect. So I can consider these religious beliefs as being entirely natural. Along with atheism.
What you would then be argueing about is that nature itself, which has also seen the logic of atheism, is wrong in inspiring religion via the processes involved in humans, so if as an atheist you were critical of religion you create a problem for your own beliefs too. Because if this is the case then Atheism may also be wrong as an expression of nature via the processes of humans. Religious believers would avoid this conundrum by believing that G*D is responsible, Atheist are stuck pondering how nature could be wrong in its processes given each expression of these beliefs are a direct result of natures processes.

So while you may deny the existence of G*D, it is also moronic to argue that a belief in G*D is illogical as there must be a cause for this and a logic in its expression, as from an atheistic persective the very prescence of religion is an obvious aspect of the fabric of reality, an expression of nature itself regardless of any actual G*D existing. Of course this moronic behaviour is not applicable to the logic of a believer of G*D, who accepts a G*D existing, as nature has intended that they believe. Atheist are stuck as describing an effect of nature and its laws as being wrong by criticising religion in any way. Atheist just have to accept religion as it is, as being logical in nature as it is simply and purely a fact of existence.
Religion, purely as an expression of nature, can attack atheist logic because believers accept G*D as determining their existence and not nature, this attack on atheists logic is in and of itself justified as defending nature because atheism is attacking the logic of nature when any atheist criticizes religion, religion that is expressed by human processes determined by nature, its laws and parameters.

Religion is here, it was always here, it will always be here.
Get over it.



[edit on 3-4-2009 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by asmall89
No not all beliefs are equal because some believe in one thing more than others but no belief is ever wrong until its proven wrong,

No you misunderstand what I mean. All have the right to believe what ever but some have plainly wrong beliefs - Hitler believed he was doing the work of God by making a pure race (this is ATS, it won't be hard to research that). Bush believed that it was right to go into Iraq.

These are just wrong on every regard - ethical, logical, whatever, it's just bad.

But if you base your beliefs on something logical and rational, maybe even demonstrable, it's better than basing your beliefs on fantasy or fallacies, like Holocaust deniers and people who assert that the earth is flat etc.

I've heard about seeing what you expect in an NDE, my answer to that is that its all real.

Yes well you can claim what you like about NDE's but you can't use them as evidence of a deity and/or afterlife because they naturalistic explanations.

Do I want there to be a God, Yeah I do, but

You should make sure that your desire isn't what actually motivates you to believe, because if it is, it suggests you are weak (unable to face an uncomfortable reality so you hide in more comforting beliefs.)

I'll tell you something, I wish God was real to- and the afterlife, that would be lovely, but I'm no where near convinced.

[edit on 4-4-2009 by Welfhard]

Sorry to interject into this battle, but...

Perspective is SO COOL...

If moral values are just a process of evolutionary process then the there is no such thing as objective moral values. When the murder of little kids for fun is called "wrong" or "bad" in actuality nothing can be meant more by it than "i dont like that" or "thats not helping humans survive".

On the other hand if there are objective moral values the Christian worldview is the only one that can account for unchanging, immaterial, universal moral laws.