Got info on Memphis-Misraim?

I noticed there's another rite, not recognized by most Masons, called Memphis-Misraim. I have several questions on it.

1) It's recognized by the Grand Lodge of France. Why do you consider them fake Masons if the French Grand Lodge considers them Masonic brothers?

2) They teach the same doctrines as you. Liberty, equality, brotherhood, pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, etc. How, then, are they "evil" and "satanic" to you? Especially since they're your brothers, not only in Masonry but in mankind. I fail to see how unrecognition of them is Masonic conduct.

reply to post by Guuzorz



This rite as far as I know is not really in use in english speaking countries.

You will found it mainly in France, and somes lodges in Québec, mainly in Montreal.

This system share the common degrees of blue lodges and go over the 33 degree.

It is a joint between Memphis rite and Misraim Rite by a coucil in Narbonne, Those rites are inspired by Egypt, they were promoted in late 18th century by Cagliostro.

Revival in France in mainly due to Robert Ambelain, He played a great role in the diffusion of the rite.

BTW.

Grande Loge de France, is a regular masonic body according the landmarks and traditions of Free-masonry, but is not recognize by the Grand Loge of England.

In France, only Grande Loge Nationale Française is the ''official'' structure recognize as regular free-masonry.

Grande Loge de France, deals only with scottish rite.

So, Supreme Council of Grande Loge de France is recognised as a regular body by others masonic structures, even though their blue lodges are not.

More info about Memphis Misraim here;

www.memphis-misraim.org...

Sorry available in french only,

I guess these Brethren would be more pleased to have their work translated.

Recognition, not recognition; It's all politics. It does not matters much really. 90 % of masons never visit other lodges, so recognition isn't really a problem.

I said.

Originally posted by Guuzorz


1) It's recognized by the Grand Lodge of France. Why do you consider them fake Masons if the French Grand Lodge considers them Masonic brothers?

It is not recognized by the National Grand Lodge of France, which is the regular body. It was actually the Grand Orient of France that closed those rites, back in the late 19th century.

They teach the same doctrines as you. Liberty, equality, brotherhood, pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, etc. How, then, are they "evil" and "satanic" to you?

They are neither evil nor satanic. Most Masonic bodies simply considered them money-making scams. Both rites invented a hundred degrees, and then gave those degrees to anyone who could pay for them. The regular Masonic bodies saw this as a fraud.

They teach the same doctrines as you. Liberty, equality, brotherhood, pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, etc. How, then, are they "evil" and "satanic" to you? Especially since they're your brothers, not only in Masonry but in mankind. I fail to see how unrecognition of them is Masonic conduct.

Basically, in mainstream Masonry the Memphis Misraim Rite is retired in the States.
It was surrendered to the Grand College of Rites , who keep all of the relative documentation of the Rite, as well as other defunct rites.

However, to say that Masons hold those who practice the rites system as evil or satanic is wrong.
Don't know where you got that idea, but there are several different types of Masonry, though the main one people refer to is mainstream masonry.
And while they do not universally recognize each other's regularity, they do not view the other as evil or satanic to any degree.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
It is not recognized by the National Grand Lodge of France, which is the regular body. It was actually the Grand Orient of France that closed those rites, back in the late 19th century.

But what makes the Grand Lodge of France irregular (according to the UGLE, which apparently you consider the body that decides who is and isn't a Mason, which seems very un-masonic to me), as opposed to the National Grand Lodge of France?

Originally posted by RuneSpider
Basically, in mainstream Masonry the Memphis Misraim Rite is retired in the States.

Though I'm not one, I have met a MM Mason (an acquaintance), which is why I ask. Who decides what Masons are and aren't mainstream? There are Memphis-Misraim lodges that work those rites, who don't abide by the Grand College. What makes them automatically irregular, if they abide by all the core Masonic principles, consider you brothers, and are recognized by most French Masons?

And I've browsed Mason forums, many members consider Memphis-Misraim "a form of Satanism and Thelema thinly guised as Masonry."

The UGLE is the head o mainstream Masonry, and because they are the head o mainstream Masonry, they hold what is and is not regular.
However, like I said, there are various other Grand Lodges, such as the Grand Lodge of All England, who hold that the United Grand Lodge is not regular.

As or the rite, I've heard various bits about it, mostly that it's considered a degree peddling rite system, capitalizing on the fascination with Egypt at the period of it's inception.

Awesome. It's like British versus French. I can believe it.

Originally posted by Guuzorz


But what makes the Grand Lodge of France irregular (according to the UGLE, which apparently you consider the body that decides who is and isn't a Mason, which seems very un-masonic to me), as opposed to the National Grand Lodge of France?

As I'm not a UGLE Mason, I do not consider them the body that decides regularity. However, no US or Canadian Grand Lodge recognizes the Grand Lodge of France either. It is not considered unmasonic to withhold recognition from organizations that claim to be Masonic if their practices differ from traditional and orthodox Freemasonry.

Nevertheless, I can find no evidence that the Grand Lodge of France recognizes Memphis or Mitzraim.

Who decides what Masons are and aren't mainstream?

The historically legitimate Grand Lodges of the jurisdiction decides.

There are Memphis-Misraim lodges that work those rites, who don't abide by the Grand College. What makes them automatically irregular, if they abide by all the core Masonic principles, consider you brothers, and are recognized by most French Masons?

They are not recognized by most French Masons. The largest grand body in France is the Grand Orient, which does not recognize them. The National Grand Lodge of France does not recognize them, and apparently, the Grand Lodge of France does not either.

In recent years, the Grand Lodge of France has been working to eventually be recognized. It is therefore unlikely that they would grant legitimacy to Memphis or mitzraim.

And I've browsed Mason forums, many members consider Memphis-Misraim "a form of Satanism and Thelema thinly guised as Masonry."

Neither Memphis nor Mitzraim are satanism. They aren't Thelema either, although Aleister Crowley was Grand Hierophant of both Memphis and Mitzraim in England.

Which leads to another problem. There's not just one Rite of Memphis or Mitzraim, but instead there are lots of different groups now who call themselves by that name. The Rite Memphis-Misraim admits both atheists and women. Other versions are more or less traditional. The branch that Aleister Crowley headed came from John Yarker's line, which was eventually assimilated into the O.T.O. The branch that Harold Van Buren Voorhis headed in the United States was collidified into the Grand College of Rites. The branch that Garibaldi headed in Italy was absorbed and tabled by the Grand Orient.

Today, members of Memphis and/or Mitzraim are not regular Masons, meaning they have not been initiated, passed, and raised in historically legitimate Lodges. Therefore, they belong to an entirely different fraternity than ours.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Guuzorz



They are neither evil nor satanic. Most Masonic bodies simply considered them money-making scams. Both rites invented a hundred degrees, and then gave those degrees to anyone who could pay for them. The regular Masonic bodies saw this as a fraud.

Sorry 14, but there, you have gone too far!

Paying for degrees !!!!!!

Excuse me, If this might have been some cases back then, was it really the only reason why these rites were dismantled ?

But could anyone tell us how it cost being admitted Shriners with the 32nd that come along ?????

What is it, to take profanes Make them EA, FC and MM the same day ????

In Memphis-Misraim, don't expect to be Master Mason in the same day you enter Apprentice. A lot of work. Degrees are given only if works are done and provided to the lodge and miminal attendance to meetings, many would consider maximal.

They are very serious Masons.

View link provided in my previous post.

Not even true they admit women, some lodges do, others don't. Some Grand Lodges do others don't.

Sorry again, Grande de Loge France is a regular masonic body. They respect all the landmarks and customs. UGLE doesn't recognize them, but not on the base of their regularity.

Grande Loge de France deals only with Scottish rite, Their Supreme Council is fully recognized but their blue Lodges are not.

Grande Loge Nationale Française, UGLE recognized, is working with many rites, mainly Emulation work witch is the same as UGLE. In France, they are the fringe masonry.

This is all politics, since UGLE recognize only one masonic body for a single jurisdiction. BUT exception has been made in USA with Prince Hall Grand Loge. I guess they should do the same with France with GLdF (Grande Loge de France) and GLNF (Grande Loge Nationale Française).

Grand Loge of Minnesota was about to recognise GLdF a few years ago, they changed their mind after being pressured.

I repeat, this all about politics.


I have seen so many brethren from UGLE recognized lodges visiting so-called irregular or co-masonic organisations. This is a practical joke.

Grand Lodge Alpina from switzwerland have ambivalent behavior for so long. It didn't stop the world turning.

I would laught at that if it wasn't that brethren have to hide their visits, check if they haven't been followed by other members of their lodge and being reported.

I have seen on a masonic blog; a Georges Washington Union bro: being called Bogus mason. EVEN IF the guy Was doing twice a month 600 miles to attend a meeting. Some Bros with a smaller towe rope, don't even show up.

Hypocrisy reigns, since some masonics structure are not recognized because ties with unregular or co-masonic organisations, at the end members do what they want.

In France, and lodges under; Grand Orient de France, Grande Loge de France, and Droit Humain can visit one each others.

IMO, Recognition has a lot to do about politics. Their 33rd degrees meet ones each others, but forbid their members to do the same.

I said,

Originally posted by Nimrod


Paying for degrees !!!!!!

Excuse me, If this might have been some cases back then, was it really the only reason why these rites were dismantled ?

No, the fact that the first 33 degrees of both rites were plagiarized from the Scottish Rite was also a contributing factor.

But could anyone tell us how it cost being admitted Shriners with the 32nd that come along ?????

When I joined the Shriners I paid 200 bucks, including fez.

What is it, to take profanes Make them EA, FC and MM the same day ????

It's a ridiculous practice.

In Memphis-Misraim, don't expect to be Master Mason in the same day you enter Apprentice. A lot of work. Degrees are given only if works are done and provided to the lodge and miminal attendance to meetings, many would consider maximal.

Nowhere did I say that Memphis and/or Mitzraim were bad, and today's Rites that bear those names often have little resemblance to the originals. The fact that they are "irregula" from a Masonic political standpoint should not discourage any who want to go that route, as long as they understand beforehand that they will not be recognized by the mainstream Masonic community.

Not even true they admit women, some lodges do, others don't. Some Grand Lodges do others don't.

No regular Grand Lodge may admit women or atheists. These are two of the 25 Ancient Landmarks of Masonry that, if a Grand Lodge breaks, loses its Masonic status automatically.

I would laught at that if it wasn't that brethren have to hide their visits, check if they haven't been followed by other members of their lodge and being reported.

I don't think anybody is going to follow someone around to see what Lodge he's going to. It's internal: if a regular Mason is knowingly visiting a clandestine Lodge, he knows himself that he's violating his obligation as a Mason, he doesn't anyone else to tell him.

In France, and lodges under; Grand Orient de France, Grande Loge de France, and Droit Humain can visit one each others.

Which is the main reason why the GLdF is not currently recognized.

Then Should UGLE ban itself ????

www.dalyclan.org...


What about those female lodges, and organization such as Eastern Star. Can men attend those meetings ? What's the diffrence between that and a mixed Lodge.

We do agree that giving same day full blue grades are ridiculous. But this practice occurs.


__________________________

''I don't think anybody is going to follow someone around to see what Lodge he's going to ''

I saw it myself, '' regular'' Brothers being followed, taken in pictures entering the ''doomed'' Temple.

IMO, In such case a Defendant Brother may ask for a masonic trial.
Since you recognize a M.:M.: to is apron, case dismissed.
And if a brother is not happy in a Lodge, he may go elsewhere. I even think he has the right to make a mistake, and be forgiven.... even if he is not a 33'
___________________________


More info on Memphis-Misraim could be found here:

www.fm-fr.org...

Sorry, no translation available here.

_______________________________

'' and today's Rites that bear those names often have little resemblance to the originals.''

I do not agree this rite seems quite the same at is was.

____________________________

Ties with Grand Orient, and other masonic bodies :

''Which is the main reason why the GLdF is not currently recognized.''

Have they been push that way by UGLE position with one Grand Lodge for one Jurisdiction ? Making exeption when it manages, like Prince Hall Grand Lodge.
________________________________

A lot of politics.

All these Grand Masters know one each others, write to one anothers, talk to each others, and belive me they don't call themself, sirs.

_____________

In Montreal, If you are Memphis-Misraim Member you could go at least 20 different lodges outside your Grand Lodge, to regular not ''recognized'', co-masonry as they call it, Feamale-Male lodge, Grand Orient, Glde France, etc...Without any problems.

There is more lodges ''irregular'' than recognized by UGLE. And it is growing.

If you are a French speakin mason, that is a lot more than what you can expect from the ''mainstream'', witch is not so main outside US and UK afterall.

You will be welcome almost everywhere in Europe. through CLIPSAS.
58 Grand Loges are members, you could visit every one of them.

www.clipsas.com...

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Nevertheless, I can find no evidence that the Grand Lodge of France recognizes Memphis or Mitzraim.

en.wikipedia.org...:Rite_of_Memphis-Misraim#MM_in_Modern_American_Freemasonry

Here you go. Its recognized in a number of jurisdictions outside of the US.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Guuzorz]

"However, your edit says ALL GLs, not all US GLs, and there are GLs that are in mutual recognition with GLs that are in mutual recognition (friend of friend) with UGLE wherein: AAPRMM is NOT deemed irregular; or is deemed regular; or is not addressed (there are SOME GL's that do not have a GL Constitutional clause like GLMA's 700-701 stating what is and isn't a regular appendant body, and simply deem GLs to be what GLs should discuss regarding regularity) . . .--Vidkun 15:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)"

"Grand Lodge of Romania and the Grand Orient of Italy (both of which are recognized by GLMA) both allow M+M (aka AAPRMM). GCR did not have the right to claim exclusive ownership of extant rites. www.masonicforum.ro... --Vidkun 20:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)"

Proof that it's accepted in some jurisdictions, and thus is only "clandestine" according to the UGLE and American Grand Lodges.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Guuzorz


1) It's recognized by the Grand Lodge of France. Why do you consider them fake Masons if the French Grand Lodge considers them Masonic brothers?

It is not recognized by the National Grand Lodge of France, which is the regular body. It was actually the Grand Orient of France that closed those rites, back in the late 19th century.

They teach the same doctrines as you. Liberty, equality, brotherhood, pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, etc. How, then, are they "evil" and "satanic" to you?

They are neither evil nor satanic. Most Masonic bodies simply considered them money-making scams. Both rites invented a hundred degrees, and then gave those degrees to anyone who could pay for them. The regular Masonic bodies saw this as a fraud.

Since the author of this particular post is using the emblem of a Masonic Past Master, I will assume him to be so until I find out otherwise. In any case, he is absolutely right that Memphis Misraim is generally considered to be a sham money maker and at the very most is popular among new agers who want to be thought of by some as Masons and are willing to apy for it. Im from the United States and we dont recognize it here.

Also, for those of you who are interested in it, watch out. There is a con artist former Freemason out there whose initials are BC who will tell you that he is reviving Memphis Misraim and will even try to get you to joing and become a Magus (what they call their Master Masons). The only thing is, his "lodge" is entirely on line and you get to pay for the priviledge of gaining each of the 90-some degrees. I honestly dont know why the French recognize it, as it has always been seen as a money making con since it appeared on the Freemasonry scene a little over a hundred years ago. As I say, watch out for this BC fellow as he will try to get you to take part in his Rite of Memphis Misraim as if he is selling Amway. He will tell you that the Masons in his Lodge meet in caves and the like but that if you are willing to become part of his "order" and make donations that one day they will build the most amazing Masonic lodge the world has ever seen. The kicker is that he only ever was a second degree Freemason (Fellow Craft) before he was expelled for unMasonic conduct. You will know you have run across him if you find a site or him claiming to be the President fo the Ancient Egyptian Rite of Memphis Misraim from Washington State. Oddly enough, he also lists the head of the whole order as a woman named Brenda Carnes, or the like and I have always found it strange that they ahve the same initials. He also claims to have been the first member of the Grand Orient of the United States of America, which while not a mainstream Masonic obedience is an actual functioning alternative Masonic body run by some of the most upstanding and wonderful Freemasons I have ever known, though Mr BC will try now to discredit them at every turn.

There. Now you know.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
The UGLE is the head o mainstream Masonry, and because they are the head o mainstream Masonry, they hold what is and is not regular.
However, like I said, there are various other Grand Lodges, such as the Grand Lodge of All England, who hold that the United Grand Lodge is not regular.

As or the rite, I've heard various bits about it, mostly that it's considered a degree peddling rite system, capitalizing on the fascination with Egypt at the period of it's inception.

Its not accurate to say that the United Grand Lodge of England is the head of mainstream Masonry. While the various Grand Lodges of the United States (each state has its own Grand Lodge under which the Lodges in that particular state function) are recognized and to a certain extent modelled after the UGLE, the UGLE does not control Freemasonry in the US. Now, it is true that if a Grand Lodge in the US did something with the UGLE found objectionable, then the UGLE could withdraw its recognition of the Grand Lodge of that state and hence all the Lodges under the control of that Grand Lodge. However, the same can happen in the US. Recently, their was a bit of a set-to when the Grand Lodge of Minnesota withdrew its recognition of the Grand Lodge of West Virginia, allegedly over racial ideas that Minnesota did not approve of.

What people need to realize is that there is no central governing body of Freemasonry in the United States other than at the State Grand Lodge Level. Someone mentioned the Grand College....the only Grand College is the Grand College of Rites in Illinois which is a sort of museum which teaches about rites that so called regular Freemasonry does not recognize, among them the Rite of Memphis Misraim and all its variations.

As a Mason, I really am surprised at the number of people who arent but claim to have extensive knowledge of Freemasonry based on what they think they know. To those individuals, I would recommend reading a book, or contacting the local Lodge in your city and asking to meet with the Lodge's secretary and get a tour of the Lodge and he will answer your questions to the extent that his oaths and obligations allow him to. Yes. Masons have secrets, but they are nothing more sinister than handshakes and other modes of recognition which we have a right to and dont have to disclose to anyone else. Besides if you are really curious, dust of your library card and check out the books on Freemasonry. Most of what you want to know...what you are just salivating to know has all been in print for more than a hundred years.