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Flint, Michigan: Government Considering Abandoning Parts of City, Cutting Off Police & Fire Service

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posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 11:43 AM
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I am glad I am dumb!

Like they say - "ignorance is bliss."

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 12:55 PM

Originally posted by visible_villain
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I am glad I am dumb!

Like they say - "ignorance is bliss."

They also say the best revenge is living enjoy that musty old Japanese babe magnet now!

Try not to drink and chat in the future...

Putting you on ignore now, as silence is blissful...

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 01:07 PM

Originally posted by visible_villain

Just plain stupid !!!

I hope you are not attacking another member.

That is the worst T&C violation on this board and is not tolerated.

The rest of the world needs to catch up to our humane living wage. Until that can be done we need to put extreme tariffs on ALL imported goods.

Now don't contradict yourself and state other countries wont buy our products they don't anyway. We have been and ARE the driving consumer engine of the world and we need to stop doing this self defeating course of action before it derails the entire world economy. This cannot last any longer we are out of money and the only way out soon will be to overthrow our Government and replace it with a real republic that protect American jobs and American interests instead of the global corporate monster.

I have seen more truthful intelligent dialogue come from the member YOU called stupid in just one of his posts than I have seen in a combination of any posts in a long long time.

This is the truth. We need to be together as a working people and shed the global corporate machine that has brainwashed the masses for years.

Lets be real here, very little of labor savings is passed onto the consumer they outsource jobs to widen the profit margin and then throw the consumer a small savings in return for being so mindless in our consumption of foreign goods. We need to recharge our system and the only way to do that is too make is too expensive to import goods and then you will see the jobs come back.

If we wait too long (hopefully its not too late) while we are still the number one consumer engine we will miss this chance. If we tariff the hell out of imports the corporations will have to come back to its consumer engine. If we wait until that engine quits we will not have that leverage and the world elite will have won and you and your children will work for an inhumane slave wage.

God why are people so asleep about this simple fact? Its like the invasion of the body snatchers or something. The average Joe used to understand this.

Edit for spelling I was too angry to check it before hitting send!

[edit on 3-4-2009 by LoneGunMan]

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 01:13 PM
reply to post by LoneGunMan

I have reached the same conclusion as you. In order to turn our economy around. We must take jobs back into this country. The way to do this is to make it more expensive to import manufactured goods than it would be to manufacture them at home.

If a manufacturer is able to produce parts for industry for less in the U.S. than it would cost them to import those parts, they will build manufacturing here instead of outsourcing jobs overseas.

But the worker themselves have to be cost effective to make this plan work. They more than likely will have to take a pay cut to keep the job. A little of something is much better than a whole lot of nothing.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 01:40 PM
reply to post by LoneGunMan

I would like to add an addendum to my last post. All goods that are from countries that have inhumane wages.

We should keep trading fairly with Canada Europe and Australian friends.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 02:25 PM

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
reply to post by LoneGunMan

I would like to add an addendum to my last post. All goods that are from countries that have inhumane wages.

We should keep trading fairly with Canada Europe and Australian friends.

What is an inhuman wage? In many third world countries the wages are extremely low and these inhuman wages are actually on the high end, so those who work these sweat shops actually feel lucking, and there is a million waiting to take their place. In the Philippines a rice planter/harvester works for about 3 bucks a day and that is back breaking work….

I do agree that companies do not pass on the savings to the costumer, and maybe that is why the DOW hit 14k at one point. Earnings well beyond what they should be caused this, and now we have a correction of the market. Japan saw this in the 70s when they worked their own people 16 hours a day for small wages. This lasted until the population decided they want more of the pie, and so their huge gains in the 70s will never be seen again.

A neat experiment would be to see if the price of produce would actually go up if farmers were unable to under pay illegal aliens. I would bet we would see at best a small increase in cost as competition would stabilize what the consumer would be willing to pay….in the end profit would take a hit, but maybe that is not a bad thing.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 02:39 PM

Originally posted by whatukno

I have reached the same conclusion as you. In order to turn our economy around. We must take jobs back into this country. The way to do this is to make it more expensive to import manufactured goods than it would be to manufacture them at home.

The problem is whether there are people willing to work these jobs. My dad once asked me, after I complained about how little I was making back when I was 19 years old, what do i think the job was worth per hour? I thought about it and I said about what I am making, and he said well get a better job then.

This is the issue for these jobs are not good ones and they should pay low wages, but what happens is we have people making great pay off a job that should not be great pay. How many people would be willing to work for 8 to 10 dollars per hour (or maybe less) in a job that might be mentally or physically hard but takes a low skill worker to do?

Put this in the newspaper...

Wanted: "rubber sealant applicator needed for sport shoe company, $8.00 per hour, guaranteed 10 hours per day of work", and see how many people actually apply....

Bringing these jobs back to America might sound good, but it is a more complex issue than just creating more jobs.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 04:13 PM
Oh please!

The big three cars are junk. From 1995-2005 I have owned one from each manufacturer and by the end of the 1st year I had in the back of my mind to paint lemons on the things. The PT Cruiser that I purchased has to be the worst of them. At 15,000 miles the engine blew and Chrysler refused to honor my warranty claiming the vehicle didn't have antifreeze. Of course it did not as I watched it spill onto the road when it self destructed. All I wanted was a smaller vehicle that would last when I traveled from school/work.

The plastic dash cracked down the middle and caved in and cracked the windshield doing so. Again Chrysler refused any kind of warranty work. The dealer's promise of around 30mpg was a farce as it is lucky to get 17mpg being a 4 cylinger. Even doing careful and slow driving it has never gotten over 20mpg. Whether old engine or newer engine it burns oil like a car three times the size. I still have this vehicle. It has 55,000 miles and is sputtering now. If the engine dies a second time I suspect it will become a chicken coop or raised garden.

Of course we have to get into what exactly is American made. My dad's 1994 beater Ford Ranger was made in Japan. My mom's Ford f150 was made in the US. The PT Cruiser was made in Mexico. My new Honda was made in Indiana.

I heard BMW mentioned earlier. You have to be aware of that fact that when BMW located their facility in Spartanburg SC they created over 5000 jobs for Americans not only working for them but, also for the parts suppliers that went into business around them. It has brought millions upon millions to this state. Many cars from Honda, Toyota, etc. are built right here in the USA.

Made In America? Hard To Tell!

Artists Look For Renewel In Foreclosures!
Hoping to turn Detroit into a mecca for artists.

I do feel bad for these folks though. This area has been wiped out for the most part with all the fabric manufacturing jobs that vanished in this area. Work for a retail store, hospital, school, or just do not work. Unemployment is at 17% now. What is thought of as American cars have ruined their own reputation though.

Ask any Honda owner why they bought a Honda. They will have bad experience stories to tell you or someone close to them let them in on the secret. It wasn't jaded press that turned many away from these vehicles it was in fact word of mouth. While they threw all their eggs into the large vehicle basket (which did well for a while). The small/medium vehicle market was half heartedly done for many years while they let the competition nearly take all that away.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 04:58 PM
reply to post by Xtrozero

I see, so you are of the opinion of A whole lot of Nothing is better than a little Something? An opinion shared by many in Michigan. Look where that attitude got Michigan.

I think that it's time that people stop with the entitlements. Stop making it possible and more profitable to ship jobs overseas to people who don't ask for so much.

In an economic downturn such as the one we are in today. Asking for more is not the solution. Working for less is. I would rather receive a small paycheck than none at all.

But that's just me. Of course when times are better, who do you think is going to get paid more. Someone who has worked at a company through thick and thin or someone who refused to work until the wages and benefits were to their liking?

My money is on the loyal employee, the one who would rather see the company they work for be able to make a profit and remain afloat.

Of course you may not see it that way. Thinking to yourself that you deserve more money. Perhaps you do, perhaps I deserve more money, but I will deserve it when the company I work for is able to pay it without going belly up in the process.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 06:43 PM
what did they say in Aliens? just take off and nuke it from orbit! yeah everyone in MI knows that Flint, Sagnasty and Bay City have been bleepholes for years. didn't they send tanks thru there in the 80's?
on the bright side Flint gave us The Dayton Family!

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 07:32 PM
Flint is part of my family history.
Well the fact that we didn't go there.
One of the Olds brothers offered a job there.
It might have been in Detroit and the offer was given
to someone already in the motor business.

So the story goes he was asked why he didn't go.
He said he didn't want to go to a one horse town like Flint.
Guess Flint really grew.

There is plenty of untaped technology around but you can't tell
it to the Relativists. So can't say if Flint would ever tap into any.

Even Lord Kelvin said we needed wind power.
Imagine, and he almost tapped non relativistic atomic energy
in his discovery of compressed air and liquid air and gases
anomalies to his doctrine of conservation of energy.

Got to run in Illuminati circles to figure that one out.

posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 07:34 PM

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
reply to post by LoneGunMan

I would like to add an addendum to my last post. All goods that are from countries that have inhumane wages.

We should keep trading fairly with Canada Europe and Australian friends.

One of the truly deceptive things about the global economy is how it has been used to hide inflation here in America.

In 1970 you could walk into Woolworth and buy an American Made button down dress shirt for $12-16 dollars. You could expect it to last for four to five years depending on frequency of wear and use...and expect it to help clean your car for another 2 years after that.

Today you can go into Wal-Mart and still buy a button down dress shirt for 12-16 dollars made in China. The material of course is no longer 100% genuine American cotton but a synthetic blend of various fabrics that are paper thin. You can reasonably expect buttons to start cracking after a few months, and the fabric to start fraying after 6, and by the end of the year the stitching will be coming apart at the seams and the material will be too course to even use as a rag on your car.

The American importer of the shirt is making 2-3 dollars more per unit in profit than they were back in 1970 on the same dollar amount sale.

The shopper thinks great, I can still buy a shirt for 15 dollars, life is good,
but it's no where near the same shirt.

Now meanwhile guess what an American employer inside America feels?
No need for a cost of living increase in real can still buy your work shirt for 15 dollars!

Now this is where they hide inflation and keep domestic wages artificially low...If you could find a Made in America Shirt, with Grown in America Cotton, and Made in America Buttons...made to at least that same 1970 standard...figure on 95-160 dollars retail.

That's the hidden infaltion...basically our corporations have robbed the third world of cheap labor and raw materials for a pittance of their actual domestic value, and then resell them here at a greater profit than they could realize under any other method.

What else you didn't see in 1970 were Credit Cards and Revolving Charge had American Express, and Diners Club, bill to be paid in full at the end of the month.

Over the past few decades America has slowly had it's manufacturing shipped overseas, and had high paying blue collar worker jobs dry up. That is more responsible than anything for rising inner city crime rates...Wal-Mart simply does not have enough jobs to keep the under educated throw aways of society marginally employed. We have the highest per capita prison population in the world and on any given day.
A large portion of them are drug related offences that to many inner-city youths has a greater appeal in the economic short term than a 8.00 dollar an hour job at Wal-Mart, while back in the 1970's chances are their neighborhood had at least a couple factories with jobs paying a significantly higher wage than that even with out being adjusted for gross inflation. We pay to warehouse on any given day 2 million people and have another 5 million people in various forms of work release, supervised release and probation.

Add those numbers to the unemployment rolls on any given day and you have a massive unemployment problem.

Take away all the people legally employed in the war on drugs and your unemployment problem gets even more massive...

The reality is American Corporations could easily afford to provide work opportunities for all Americans, but choose not to to pad their bottom lines.

Excluding cars which are now comparibly priced, inflation is hidden in cheap imported goods. Wages are kept artificially low as a result of offering people cheap, substandard products as a bare minimum to meet clothing, furnishing, and entertainment, and other household needs.

Relatively Cheap Credit was made readily available to relieve that pressure of asking for a raise or pushing for a union to ask for a raise. Why embarass yourself with rejection from the boss when you could but it on a Credit Card and pay for it later?

We have become in essence a form of endentured servants, and most of us have no idea what are labors are worth.

I quit a job in the mid nineties because I refused to participate in a mandatory drug testing program the company had just started after I had been working there for three years.

Two days later my boss called me up offering to double my salary to come back to work, I turned him down, two days after that he called offering to triple it. He did too, and I was stunned to realize that I had been worth that all along to him and possibly even more, but he just didn't see or have any need to pay it, since I wasn't asking for more money.

I never have made that mistake again...after my first year with a company and they have had a chance to see my work and tallents on my aniversary day I tell them what I really want to make, or I am one to date has refused to pay that sum.

Demanding a real wage should not be something people are afraid to do, but in fact they are, and they have lot's of outs, cheap imported goods, easy credit, government entitlements to supplement.

Sounds great just one problem...those cheap imported goods have left us with a staggering trade imbalance and no real savings.

That easy credit, a good deal of it has been loaned to our always loaning until recently banks from overseas banks looking to cash in on the boon.
That's what these bailouts to the banks are about, helping the banks to maintain their credit lines with foreign banks that have loaned our banks money to service the debt.

Now we are pretty much royally screwed except for the big corporations who have amassed an incredible amount of wealth in this system.

Now in all fairness, Detroit really lagged in the late seventies and most of the eighties, they really did catch up and pass foreign competitors in most price class qualities...but not entry level cars. In every level above entry yes, in trucks yes, in utility vehicles, medium and full sized sedans, and sports cars, America has it all over the competition.

If you buy any model foreign or domestic in it's first production could have a heartache and headache on your hands...if you bought an entry level American car in the first production year of the model, you have a real good chance of having some warranty issues and a possible Lemon depending on how stringent your State's laws are...

Here is the thing most American's just aren't going to want to realize until it's too late...

1 out of 7 Americans really is employed in relation to the Auto Industry...what in fact has kept our economy moving in a hyper inflationary bubble is huge infussions of cash from home and car sales.

Enough cash to keep most of the service segment of the economy humming along as brokers, sales people, managers and other highly skilled production type workers had plenty of money to burn in other retailers, and restaurants and stores.

Real Estate is now dead, homes priced out of the market for most people, few people have money saved, and can buy one without a loan that banks are shy of making because of the default rate.

Car sales are dead, my Toyota and Honda Dealerships are performing just as poorly as my Domestic Manufacture Dealerships...none of that cash is pouring into the economy.

More and more people in related industries in support of the auto business loose their jobs every day and it results in more and more people in non related service industries loosing their jobs too.

When business is down 60% people loose jobs and businesses shutter.

We need an economic growth engine and autos is our last one.

Where inflation could not be hidden...groceries and the math.


posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:50 PM
Well, we have Detroit, Pontiac and Flint surrounding the metro Detroit area. The culture of hate in these three cities will not get better. Through the boom times they have invested in hate and racism instead of good will and infrastructure.

The whole idea that Michigan will die is absurd. It is the communities with the city leaders and people who elect them in these types of sad cities that are the problem.

They have always said that if Detroit dies the rest of SE Michigan dies. I say that's more of the same political correctness that has gotten us into the trouble these cities are in now.

We had the Super Bowl, World Series and All Star Game and an NHL Championship in the same year and look what the Mayor did with all that good will... He screwed his chief of staff all the way to the bank and now he is rewarded with a 100k year job in Texas.

These are the values of the people that live in these cities. It's not the cities folks. It's the people that live in those cities that wreck them.

posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 12:11 AM
I live in the west side of the state about 15 minutes from Grand Rapids. I have to say that things are going downhill just as fast here as they are over there. Jobless rates are 12% and rising, restaurants are closing almost monthly, houses are emptying on my street and everywhere else; it's just not forecast to get any better.

I went to "Michigan Works!" to see about getting into programs for schooling and training and whatnot while I search for a job that actually pays as much or more than unemployment, and there were people there that I worked with years ago that haven't found anything around here and are considering or planning to move out of state. People are leaving in droves, and I may have to be one of them if I don't find something soon.

Pretty much the whole country is bad. It's a shame our automotive industry is getting so much blame for the depression. But when corrupt idiots are our leaders and we are duped into voting for them, I guess we can't expect anything to get better; that is, we can't expect them to help. Pretty soon it's going to be everyone for themselves. I am glad Michigan has a concealed weapons permit. Gonna have to get me one if the neighborhood gets much worse.

posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 01:28 AM

Originally posted by whatukno

I see, so you are of the opinion of A whole lot of Nothing is better than a little Something? An opinion shared by many in Michigan. Look where that attitude got Michigan.

No need to say "you" for it is not me, its just reality. Just understand my point is that a job doesn't mean also a good job or one that makes end meet.

I would love to see jobs come back.

posted on Apr, 4 2009 @ 01:35 AM
I was one who wanted to buy American. My first car was the Motor Trend Car of the Year, an American Motors Hornet. Later, it was the worst car of the year. So, I thought I would try again. I bought the Motor Trend Car of the Year, the Renault Alliance, co-built with American Motors. Once again, it became the dud of the year. I also bought a Dodge Van Conversion. Of course, the conversion part was cheaply done and failed miserably (roof leaks, mold, water lines blowing, electrical system imbalanced, etc.). The Dodge was ok for awhile, then developed problems with alignments, brakes. The Dodge had a great transmission and the V8 was doing great. I used traditional oil in the Dodge, and it got about 200,000 on the engine before a change. I used Mobil 1 in the four cyl Alliance and at 240,000 miles it never burned a drop of oil. I thought I was on the right track, a foreign car. Well, I bought a Lincoln next. What a repair nightmare. It was a Lincoln Continental. Thought a nice luxury car would be great for my wife. The suspension system, made with air shocks, was so expensive to repair I gave it away. Finally, I got another Dodge with a better conversion. It's great. I got a Buick Park Avenue. It's great. I got a Honda Insight for 65 mpg performance. It's the best car I have ever owned. And they wonder why we don't like American cars so much. Well, Flint, you got screwed by management and quality control. Bad decisions can ruin business. Americans want a car they can depend on.

As for tariffs, I wouldn't do that. Want a war? Tariffs enhance isolationism. All they do is make our world partners think you hate 'em. You economically blockaded their production. You sold them the materials, but you wouldn't buy the product they made with them. Think about it. Never go for tariffs. You tariff them, they tariff you. Nobody wins.

The solution to the Flint problem: ingenuity. America is famous for it. Stop thinking like a welfare handout is next on your dream list, and go out and start a new idea.

California is doing great. You wouldn't know it on the news. We make computers, entertainment, and a lot of the things people want now. A big difference between us and Michigan: quality control. We made sure the computers and entertainment, agriculture, etc. were the best. Had that been done with the automobiles, your town would also be thriving.

Sure, we had some housing foreclosures. I think that was a good thing for my kids. I didn't see any way that they were going to be able to buy a home of their own in this state unless something brought housing prices down. It's just a quick window of opportunity for now. The economy is coming back sooner than you think. It will come back almost as fast as it went.

The most important jobs in America: sales. Sales persons move products, which create jobs. If a sales person calls you on the phone, you might want to give them some respect. They are working, and they are doing something about this place. Maybe you don't want to buy anything right now, but someone does. I know, because I am selling to them. When your neighbors are buying from me, they are helping you. You go back to work and produce the products that I sell, and so it goes.

I suggest you pray at night for some strength to go forward with your life. Be sincere in your prayers. Move in a positive direction. When you go to bed at night, tell yourself "Tomorrow I am going to do something positive about my situation."

When the sun comes up, start finding a job and/or creating a business. Get your imagination moving. Here's how to do it. When you are looking around you, what problems do you see that are common to many people around you? Let's make a list:
1. Security. Can everyone pay you $10 a month (x1000 homes) to provide security?
2. Convenience. Do people need lawns maintained? Are there seniors on fixed incomes that need meals? Are there disabled who need transportation? Are there people who need to rent a room? Are there people who need a ride? Start providing services for a reasonable fee.
3. Clothing. Where do people get their clothes? Can you do better for them?
4. Medical needs. How do people get there and back? Are there ways to bring services to them?
5. Entertainment. People will pay a small amount to be entertained. Keep your fees low, and provide entertainment for large groups.
6. Resale. Start providing a location where people can barter or sell their goods.
7. Food. Rent or lease some lots and convert them to small farms to provide fresh food to locals.
8. Maintenance. Paint, repair, replace items in your neighborhood for a small fee.

Really, just use your imagination, and you can be the force that turns your neighborhood around. Go to the Yellow Pages. Look at the types of businesses your neighborhood used to have. Analyse which came first when the town was built. Start with those types of businesses. Perhaps there was a general store, message center, etc. Look at old movies, like Little House on the Prairie, or the Waltons, and see what simple towns were like before they developed into larger cities. Begin by building small towns within the framework of the dead cities. Coalesce with your neighbors into real small town America. When the foundations begin to form, the city will rebuild.

You can do it.

[edit on 4-4-2009 by Jim Scott]

[edit on 4-4-2009 by Jim Scott]

posted on Apr, 5 2009 @ 05:27 PM
I wish we could start over but you could not do this in the US.
1). Electric System by Tesla Coil. Tesla built a platform 6ft. by 12ft. and was flying around on it. Flood lights float in air like in movie Dune, weather ins., video, music etc also.
2). Power it by a Searl Generator.
3). Oxygen infused and Ozone purified water system
4). EMF corrected system that sends out signal as the body's cells divide nine times the first cell then will not die. animals grow to huge sizes like twice as fast in half the time. Live extended lifespan 200 plus years
5). Orgone generators if rain needed are placed on roofs.
6). Communications longditdatual faster than speed of light. etc.

Just to list a few it would be interesting to see ideas for such a real futuristic city on paper. The tech we have today is mostly junk in contrast.

posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 10:51 AM
reply to post by Xtrozero

The reason the Big 3 cut so many jobs and the reason that Michigan is doing so poorly is the issue of entitlements.

Having a job that pays well and allows for an income that includes disposable income is a great thing. However when a company cannot sustain that workforce or those wages it is illogical for them to pursue talent in a workforce market that expects those wages.

A company in order to be profitable will choose to export it's jobs to areas where the population is willing to work for less.

UAW workers have essentially priced themselves out of jobs. If it were I running the Big 3 I would be eager to move the entire operation out of the country to places where the labor force would work for far less.

But hey, keep striking for more, keep fighting for more, in the end UAW workers will end up with nothing and Michigan manufacturing will die.

I hear it all the time "We have given up enough" as more and more jobs are cut by the Big 3 trying to keep their heads above water. (I know labor costs aren't the only reason the auto makers are doing poorly, but it is a large portion of the problem)

Sorry for the "you" but it irks me sometimes when I hear people in this economy demanding more when they should be trying to help their businesses survive. When a company does well the workers should do well. When the company suffers the workers should also take cuts to make sure they have jobs.

posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 05:54 PM
There have been a lot of positing of possible causes for this and even some finger pointing, but I'm overall impressed at some of the positive ideas for change that could help bring financial stability back to regions of SE Michigan such as Flint, Pontiac and Detroit.

I would like to add another that no one else here has pointed out as of yet.

I think we can all agree, although we may beg to differ on the details of why, that the Manufacturing/Production based Economy of the American Factories have gone and went. Outsourcing and Off-shoring are the signs of the times and cities dependent upon Manufacturing/Production are feeling the hurt first and foremost.

As much as I dislike King George the First (George Bush Sr.) there was a speech he gave that said something odd and out-of-place but now, in retrospect, actually rings with a resonance of sensibility (Man, I never thought I'd say that in a million years!). He said something along the lines of [NOTE: Paraphrased from distant memory over 15 years old!]] "The United States can no longer compete profitably against foreign rivals (in Manufacturing). Our economy must become Service based and we must position ourselves to be the Police of the World in order to remain financially relevant." (I can't Google the exact quote because every search criteria I use comes up with 125 Million Page Results about George W. Bush's Service Record instead.)

Although I don't quite agree with the Police of the World statement, his call to move our Economy from Manufacturing Based to Service Based is very poignant in light of our current Financial Crisis, especially in cities like Flint, Pontiac and Detroit that rely heavily on Manufacturing for their Economy.

We simply cannot compete against German, Irish, and Japanese Manufacturing. As China and India become more Industrialized, even the Germans, Irish and Japanese can't compete with these new-comers. Other than stubborn, ignorant pride, why would we think we somehow could? Moving to a Service Industry makes much more sense economically and is a way we can continue to compete even on a Global Scale without a need to redesign our entire Infrastructure and pour Billions into building new competitive factories that still won't save Manufacturing in America if there is no vision and innovation behind them...and certainly if there is no market which will buy them.

Just as the Industrial Revolution gave birth to the Manufacturing Economy, the Informational Revolution with the dawn of the World-Wide-Web gave birth to the potential for a Service Economy. In the past 10 years alone, almost all of the Fortune 500 Companies are now Service-Based. In the past 10 years the majority of our GNP has become Service-Based. Perhaps it is time for us to show the world that we are Kings of Information Services just as we were Kings of Manufacturing in the post-WWII Era.

As times change, we must either change with them or go the way of the dinosaur.

Flint, Pontiac, Detroit, and all of America for that matter, can go quietly into the night, or they can find new way of remaining relevant and financially competitive in this Brave New World of Information. They can hedge against the inevitable by sticking with Manufacturing and asking for bail-out after bail-out, or they can re-invent themselves and become the new Silicon Valley of the United States and the World (and that is but one example of how they could go in Service Economy...the imagination and ingenuity are the limits).

This is the 21st Century. Maybe Detroit needs a new nickname for the 21st Century. How about Waretown (Softwarecity) instead of Motown (Motorcity)?

It is a new Century. Stop clinging to last Century and don't be afraid to dream a little dream! It's beginning to sound like everyone in SE Michigan has forgotten how to do that!

posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:56 PM
reply to post by whatukno

Yeah, executive entitlements:

Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. provide executives with two free cars a year and free gas as part of broader "vehicle evaluation" programs that require managers to give the companies feedback on how their vehicles perform. Execs, families fly in style

But why drive when you can fly?

In 2006, Ford paid $517,560 so executive Mark Fields could fly to work in Michigan from his Florida home and back on weekends on the company's aircraft. The automaker and Fields agreed to change the perk and now he commutes first class, at a cost of roughly $29,000 a year, according to the company's latest proxy. Ford still covers the tax on this perk.

Ford also paid for the family of CEO Alan Mulally to fly between Michigan and Seattle. They used to fly on company aircraft, but the automaker is selling its planes. Ford now will charter private aircraft for the CEO, and his family will be allowed to travel with him on trips. Ford also will pay for coach-class flights for Mulally's family when it travels at his request.

Meanwhile, Mulally's total package was valued at $22.8 million in 2007, including $2 million in salary and a $4 million bonus. Ford gave Mulally stock and options awards it valued at $12.3 million on March 5, 2007, and March 30, 2007, the dates they were granted.

Mulally also received $1.4 million in perks. Ford's executive perks include personal use of: company phone cards and cell phones, car and driver service, season tickets to athletic events, club memberships and fuel and car washes for evaluation vehicles loaned to executives.

Mulally's perks also included $752,203 for his personal use of the company's jet, as well as personal use of the jet by his wife, children and guests "to ease the burden of Mr. Mulally moving to Southeast Michigan and away from his family in Seattle, Washington," according to the company's proxy, filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

These limitations don’t affect most people, but for executives at the highest levels of corporate America they represent a material portion of compensation. For example, Lee Iacocca’s canceled supplemental retirement benefit has caused a media storm. Since Lee retired in 1992, and the SEC only started providing filings online in 1995 with the birth of the Internet, I couldn’t figure out what Mr. Iacocca is losing. But looking at my old friend, Bob Eaton, the GM executive who succeeded Mr. Iacocca, Lee is a major loser in the bankruptcy of Chrysler.

In 1997, Mr. Eaton had earned an annual pension annuity of $1.4 million, assuming that he worked until age 65; $830,200 if he retired immediately. This supplement pension annuity cost Chrysler’s shareholders $4,048,068 in 1997. In 1998, Mr. Eaton sold Chrysler to Daimler-Benz Aktiengesellschaft, in a well-timed divestiture that saddled the Germans with massive loses for ten years.

Under PBGC rules, Mr. Eaton can only receive $51,750 per year. Under bankruptcy rules, he must give back his company car and other perks. In 1997, there were 1,250 executives at Chrysler covered by the supplemental plan so this catastrophic loss of income will only impact retiree communities in Florida and the Detroit suburbs.

I guess these annuities will go to pay secured creditors like the US Government.

In the case of Rick Wagner, things are even worse. The supplemental pension benefits at GM “are not pre-funded and are paid out of the Corporation’s general assets.” So there is nothing to back up these obligations at GM and the benefits will be wiped out. As of May 2008, Mr. Wagoner had $19,669,000 in supplemental or ERP benefits that, under the plan, payout over a five-year period post-retirement. Since Mr. Wagoner was let go in March 2009, it appears that he will lose virtually all of this money. Pretty tough medicine and a good reason to resist bankruptcy until the bitter end.

Fitz Henderson, the new CEO, will also be a loser in bankruptcy – standing to lose $3.4 million.

It is overcompensation of executives and excessive retiement, perks, and severance packeages that screwed the Big 3, not the unions. When you hear about the "legacy costs" you have to understand that they are conflating executive retirement costs with workers' retirement costs. Mostly they try to cut the workers while keeping executive pay and perks as intact as possible.

So please quit blaming the workers: they contributed to their own pensions and the auto companies made money on the invested deferred income of workers. The execs, on the other hand, didn't fully fund their own retirement funds, relying on the company coffers to backfill for them.

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