China has "Kill Weapon" to destroy US Carriers

Originally posted by Retseh
Carriers are incredibly vulnerable as it is, especially to submarine attack.

The British showed the way in the Falklands conflict, the best thing you can do is hide them from the enemy, but that's easier said than done.

In the event of a real conflict with a well equipped opponent such as China, I would expect our carriers to be more of a liability than an asset.

A lot has changed since the Falklands! And I don't think carriers are as vulnerable to submarine attack as you think. Besides the anti-submarine patrol planes on board the carriers themselves, the destroyers in the carrier group represent significant ASW capability. Not to mention the Los Angeles or Virginia class SSNs that are almost certainly part of any carrier group.

EDIT: I did a little more research- and it looks like China's subs are better than I thought. The 2007 incident where the Chinese basically sunk the Kitty Hawk in one of our exercises is pretty telling. Amazing what they can do with diesel subs these days.

[edit on 31-3-2009 by moonwilson]

Originally posted by Harlequin
www.spacedaily.com...


^^ The USA has threatened to directly attack EU assests.

In the above scenario, they sound like legitimate military targets.

reply to post by Schaden


and US cities , in the same senario , are legitimate

reply to post by Harlequin


I was under the impression that GLOSNASS has not yet achieved global coverage

and the Chicom system was even more limited with 4-5 satelites in orbit.

[edit on 3/31/09 by FredT]

Originally posted by Harlequin
www.spacedaily.com...


^^ The USA has threatened to directly attack EU assests.

If the Chicoms are using Gallileo nav imputs and the EU refuses to shut them down then they are legit targts of war.

A modified SM-3 would do nicely.

No when push comes to shove the EU will blank out the area. Its that simple or they lose assets.

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by Schaden

 

and US cities , in the same senario , are legitimate

By that logic, if the Chicoms use EU GPS system then the tracking stations and base operation are then legit targets themselves too

In my lay opinion a ballistic threat ( even with nuke) is the least of the worries a Us carrier battle group, in that area, would face given how many aircraft and submarines China can deploy. The Sm-3 and even basic Aegis defenses should be sufficient to counter Bm threats and i think the Chinese will have to get closer to do damage.

Either way this threat estimate rests on the presumption that China will have space assets left for very long which must then also credit China with a means of protecting their own. Again i think the threat is overstated as your just not going to get a conventional warhead close enough; if the nukes start flying China is entirely dependent on Russian strategic moves for success.

Stellar

reply to post by FredT


The china system covers - china , which in this situation is all they need.

GLOSNASS *did* cover world wide in the early 199`0s , but ran out of money - they aim to fix the world wide coverage by 2011

reply to post by StellarX


ammo reloads are the issue with swarm attacks.

30 years ago, military scientists were having fantasies about weapons that wee emerging today.

Imagine what is being developed in all the secret US bases, all the things that have been achieved, without a single chinese-looking man to have a look at it ( sory, it's racism, but call it national security ).

The US Military Secret Weapons Branch is probably the first and only resort against any type of military aggression.
MAYBE there are a dozen so-called telecom satellites operating around the Earth, waiting for the go ahead to wipe out Beijing, Hong Kong, etc...
MAYBE there are nano-weapons specifically aimed at chinese people. I mean, people who have the genes of a chinese, and only them, will be attacked. You drop a basketball sized bomb in the middle of their country, and the wind and nano-programs do the rest.
MAYBe the US have managed to install nuclear devices aboard satellites, and that is a Damocles sword hanging over the Chinese.
MAYBE there are HAARP military discoveries that are better kept silent. By the way, do you think Katrina is a military experiment gone awry?

Anyway, the Chinese can do whatever they want, they'll make their move only when they are sure their golden elite will survive.

Originally posted by MattMulder

30 years ago, military scientists were having fantasies about weapons that wee emerging today.

Actually they weapons we are hearing about today were in use thirty years ago but perhaps thirty years before that military scientist where having fantasies about them?

Imagine what is being developed in all the secret US bases, all the things that have been achieved, without a single chinese-looking man to have a look at it ( sory, it's racism, but call it national security ).

Imagine what is being developed in secret Chinese ( and Russian + a few other countries) labs where western scientist wont work given the salaries paid? Imagine what you can hide when you have a actual police state where the government isn't allowing Chinese military officials to tour your weapons labs and the like? Why is it that so many have such limited imaginations when it comes to everything but supposed us super weapons?

The US Military Secret Weapons Branch is probably the first and only resort against any type of military aggression.

Which is , i suppose, why America's rivals have focused on undermining the US economy and industry in general. I should add that they have done so with a great deal of aid from various American governments but what can you expect from capitalist who more often than not seem to have a price for their loyalty?

MAYBE there are a dozen so-called telecom satellites operating around the Earth, waiting for the go ahead to wipe out Beijing, Hong Kong, etc...

And yet the US armed forces have until recently ( or perhaps still today) no means to update it's combat aircraft in flight with technical or even sometimes tactical information? I find it exceedingly hard to believe that the US have any orbital combat capability beyond that of it's communication satellites; in fact it can't even keep it's shuttle fleet working.

MAYBE there are nano-weapons specifically aimed at chinese people. I mean, people who have the genes of a chinese, and only them, will be attacked. You drop a basketball sized bomb in the middle of their country, and the wind and nano-programs do the rest.

Sure and the reverse can be said for Caucasians so what is your point? What would international corporations do without 1.5 billion Chinese and perhaps large segments of the rest of South East Asia? What would happen if the Chinese , like the Russians, probably to this day have tactical nuclear weapons hidden all over the US like at least some defectors stated? Why don't anyone credit 'terrorist' ( which would explain why the US is surrounding Russia claiming it's fighting terrorism) with these exotic weaponry?

"Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.

A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.

DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen

Or do you believe the JSF's and F-22's are really required to fight guys in caves?

MAYBe the US have managed to install nuclear devices aboard satellites, and that is a Damocles sword hanging over the Chinese.

Well then the Chinese government certainly knows how to act as acting scared isn't what it's doing when it suggests that it might not always keep on accepting US debt and require assets it can purchase as well. Again i consider it more like that the Russians have such weapons ( research FOBS) than either the American or Chinese governments.

MAYBE there are HAARP military discoveries that are better kept silent. By the way, do you think Katrina is a military experiment gone awry?

Haarp is a smaller version of the weapons sytems that the former USSR deployed for decades now. Perhaps we can ask Mr Bush what he thinks of the Katrina damage?

Again, my attitude is, if it's not going exactly right, we're going to make it go exactly right. If there's problems, we're going to address the problems. And that's what I've come down to assure people of. And again, I want to thank everybody.

And I'm not looking forward to this trip. I got a feel for it when I flew over before. It -- for those who have not -- trying to conceive what we're talking about, it's as if the entire Gulf Coast were obliterated by a -- the worst kind of weapon you can imagine. And now we're going to go try to comfort people in that part of the world.

Thank you. (Applause.)

END 10:39 A.M. CDT

www.whitehouse.gov...

So sure, maybe someone were sending the Bush people a reminder of their military power?

Anyway, the Chinese can do whatever they want, they'll make their move only when they are sure their golden elite will survive.

The Chinese government seem quite capitalist ( like the rest of the world) and i am confident that they too consider the US too big to fail at this point of time considering their export based general strategy for growth. I think the US public still has plenty of milk left in them and that both the US government and the Chinese government will continue to exploit them for as long as possible. I have criticisms of the Chinese government but at least i can see where they are coming from when that can not be said of the Bushes, Clintons or the Obama's.

Stellar

eddited

[edit on 1-4-2009 by Fatality]

Originally posted by moonwilson
EDIT: I did a little more research- and it looks like China's subs are better than I thought. The 2007 incident where the Chinese basically sunk the Kitty Hawk in one of our exercises is pretty telling. Amazing what they can do with diesel subs these days.

Exactly my point.

I also believe that the anti-missile defences of the Aegis equipped cruisers and destroyers, plus the last ditch Phalanx/RAM missile combinations could be very easily overwhelmed by a mass attack of supersonic anti ship missiles.

I'm happy to go on record as saying that the day of the carrier is over, they are almost impossible to adequately protect in anything but a limited conflict.

reply to post by Retseh


If there was a situation where hostilities between the PRC and the US, do you honestly think that the PLAN or the PLAA would be able to mass the launcher needed for these mythical mass attacks, with out the US seeing the preparations.

As soon as the launchers were rolled out they would be targets for real mass waves of cruise missles, that we do have the abliity to hide from the chinese.


And dont fool yourselves, that PLAN sub had a shadow and was allowed to play their little game, because we know that they arent going to do anything.
If there were hostilities those subs would have a very short life indeed, and would never get near a CBG.

The US controls the air first, with massive and powerful surveilance planes, and fighter bombers.
We also have ships with incredible surveilance capabilities. The missile destroyers are always present with their anti-missile power, and offensive missiles too.
The Chinese and Russians have a pattern of bragging about their newest unstoppable weapons systems every few months.
They may not get close enough to use it however.
We can keep track of so many enemy assets at the same time is what I am trying to say, and respond. Sure, nothing is failsafe, but they would pay a terrible price, immediately.

Originally posted by FredT
reply to post by Harlequin

 

I was under the impression that GLOSNASS has not yet achieved global coverage

and the Chicom system was even more limited with 4-5 satelites in orbit.

[edit on 3/31/09 by FredT]

They have 5 satellites up right now, and they plan to launch 3 in 2009 and 7 in 2010. 15 should be enough to cover the range of DF-21.

Originally posted by rundog
The US controls the air first, with massive and powerful surveilance planes, and fighter bombers.
We also have ships with incredible surveilance capabilities. The missile destroyers are always present with their anti-missile power, and offensive missiles too.
The Chinese and Russians have a pattern of bragging about their newest unstoppable weapons systems every few months.
They may not get close enough to use it however.
We can keep track of so many enemy assets at the same time is what I am trying to say, and respond. Sure, nothing is failsafe, but they would pay a terrible price, immediately.

You have to keep in mind that the missile will be used as a deterrence and not for an attack on the U.S. That means that it's highly unlikely that the Chinese would try to attack the U.S. CVN in say Hawaii. They'll only attack if the Americans decide to send carriers to the Taiwan strait ala 1996, and that would put the carriers solidly within range from millions of square miles of Chinese soil. I don't care how good your surveillance system is, it's impossible to keep track of all the mobile truck-mounted DF-21's to launch a preemptive strike. Short of using nuclear weapons, which neither country is willing to do(or else why even develop a ASBM? Just nuke the whole group), it'll be difficult to destroy the launcher even after it launches and reveals its position. Not that it'll really matter anyway if it means a carrier's going down.

I always thought carriers are an old concoction that serves little real purpose against truly capable opponents. They're only really useful as power projection devices against less capable opponents.

Originally posted by moonwilson
EDIT: I did a little more research- and it looks like China's subs are better than I thought. The 2007 incident where the Chinese basically sunk the Kitty Hawk in one of our exercises is pretty telling. Amazing what they can do with diesel subs these days.

I think the sub was already on station, quietly laying in wait. In those circumstances it would be hard to detect. The Kitty Hawk is an old CV, there are so many details we don't know, and will never know. I wouldn't extrapolate too much from that incident. In a shooting war, odds are not good for Chinese submarines. If they're not bombed at the pier, they'll be taken by Virginia, Seawolf, and Astute boats.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Schaden]

Originally posted by Retseh The British showed the way in the Falklands conflict, the best thing you can do is hide them from the enemy, but that's easier said than done.

Are you implying that Her Magesty's Ship Invincible HID from the Argentinian Air Force?

For your information Retseh the real reason why she was nick-named HMS Invisible was because of the amount of spray kicked up by the bombs and missiles, as they exploded harmlessly around her!

definitley an exhibitain from the koreans its all a game and show ponning china want to monitor how the west play with fire its not the first tune korea has launched a missle at japan they did one a year or 2 ago