Atheists and Suicide

reply to post by debunky

Originally posted by debunky
well: dying was the last thing i ever wanted to do.

I don't really have anything constructive to say on topic, but I gotta comment, that is the 2nd most awesome statement ever . Did you do it intentionally?

Bleh...probably not the best way to start the 2nd page.

[edit on 31-3-2009 by babloyi]

I don't believe life is pointless, however, I do believe that life is much more than the biological phenomenon resulting from chance governed by darwinian, physical, environmental laws.

If one speaks of "happiness" from an atheistic point of view, surely this cannot be considered a metaphysical quality. "Happiness" must be a consequence of evolution, a chemical response perhaps, to ensure the gene has the chance to persist. It would seem then that my question still pertains: if "happiness" is only an evolutionary "trick" to ensure you persist and pass on the gene then why continue in an existence governed by such caprice and illusion. In a purely physical/biological understanding of life "happiness" is a chemically induced illusion.

"Love" for significant others must be of the same order - there must be nothing metaphysical about it in an atheistic world view. "Love" too must be a trick of evolution to ensure that genetic information is passed on.

If atheism is correct then everyone and everything is a slave of the gene - a freak of nature which "selfishly" is determined to assure its own persistence and we are mere gene carriers rewarded with chemically induced "emotions".

If atheism is taken to its natural conclusion then everything emotional must be illusory and we are just slaves of a string of amino acids - why persist or are the illusions sufficient, or is this "sufficiency" itself an illusion contrived by the same basic material?

Originally posted by Supercertari
I don't believe life is pointless, however, I do believe that life is much more than the biological phenomenon resulting from chance governed by Darwinian, physical, environmental laws.

Are those the only possibilities? Couldn't something purely naturalistic and pedestrian have 'point'. Ofcourse it's not going to be a point assigned by a supreme being, but it hardly needs be.

If one speaks of "happiness" from an atheistic point of view, surely this cannot be considered a metaphysical quality.

It doesn't need to be.

"Happiness" must be a consequence of evolution, a chemical response perhaps, to ensure the gene has the chance to persist.

Well more likely to motivate an organism to repeat beneficial behaviour - eating, sleeping, sexing etc.

It would seem then that my question still pertains: if "happiness" is only an evolutionary "trick" ["motivator"] to ensure you persist and pass on the gene then why continue in an existence governed by such caprice and illusion.

Happiness is a physiological/chemical phenomena, not an illusion. An illusion is something that appears real when it isn't (or technically a paradox in sensory perception; I digress).

In a purely physical/biological understanding of life "happiness" is a chemically induced illusion.

It's a chemical induced state of mind, not an illusion.

"Love" for significant others must be of the same order - there must be nothing metaphysical about it in an atheistic world view. "Love" too must be a trick ["motivator"] of evolution to ensure that genetic information is passed on.

If atheism is correct then everyone and everything is a slave of the gene

Your saying that doesn't hold true if atheism were wrong?

- a freak of nature which "selfishly" ---

By freak of nature do you mean "natural process which is inanimate and as such cannot be selfish or selfless since it has no will"? Cos if you do you'd be right.

--- is determined to assure its own persistence and we are mere gene carriers rewarded with chemically induced "emotions".

Again, are you saying that doesn't hold true if atheism were wrong?

If atheism is taken to its natural conclusion---

Careful, if you aren't an atheist you probably can't reach the natural conclusion of atheism.

---then everything emotional must be illusory ["not illusory"] and we are just slaves of a string of amino acids - why persist or are the illusions ["not illusions"] sufficient, or is this "sufficiency" itself an illusion contrived by the same basic material?

Can't someone just enjoy a good thing? Does there really need to be something more than the naturalistic cause and effect? Couldn't a person conclude that if life has no meaning then (s)he is free to assign any meaning (s)he so desires? That (s)he therefore could strive to achieve anything in life that (s)he wants?

>>> Why should we care if it's meaningless? Why- How could it be that we would "need" meaning if life doesn't actually have meaning- How would that arise? Why do we need to be more than the sum of our biology?


On a side note:
I was a christian 4 years ago and then I became an atheist. The idea that life had no meaning and the there was no god was depressing... for about 2 weeks. I used to think that a godless reality would be to depressing to bear, but I guess you just sort of come to terms with it in a similar way to the death of a loved one. You used to put everything in the perspective of faith, you feel like your life has a purpose, that god has a plan for your life, which by and large is comforting. Life just become a little less comfortable and a little more serious and you stop caring whether your life has meaning, you just start striving for the things you want to achieve in life.


[edit on 1-4-2009 by Welfhard]

The thing about depression is that while for most of us we can usually find some reason in the real world why we are depressed, for others, and even for some of us sometimes as well, there is no apparent reason.
When "depression" of that sort strikes you, it can just make everything bleak, and hopeless, and painful and because there is no apparent reason, there is no obvious relief or solution.
Sometimes just realizing you are in such a funk will help you bide it out until the internal chemistry changes on its own or you do something to change it (like medication, meditation, herbs, exercise - whatever works for you)
None of this has anything to do with atheism. Perhaps religion is one of the possible crutches that some people have available to them - but as noted above, there are many other coping aids or solution. Belief in God is not necessary for coping.
For some of us non believers, religion can be a cause of angst and depression when one sees how often it is associated with evil doings; but that is a matter for other threads.


[edit on 4/1/2009 by wayno]

The truth is, religion is an invention to make people feel better about death. This is why every religion has an afterlife. Atheists are probaly more scared of death than religious people, so they aren't going to end it quicker. Im neither an atheist or religious,just open minded, but i still dont want to die any time soon

Originally posted by Supercertari
I don't believe life is pointless, however, I do believe that life is much more than the biological phenomenon resulting from chance governed by darwinian, physical, environmental laws.

To understand something .... is not to lessen its value .

An engineer fully versed in the dynamics of flight ..... is still capable of marvelling at a Jumbo-Jet leaving the runway climbing into the sky.

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"Happiness" is more of a cultural interpretation of a chemical reaction.

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The evolution of the human brain is an important aspect in this discussion IMHO.
The outer layer of the human brain is the most recent structure , with the deeper layers consisting of those structures from our shared evolutionary history with reptiles and mammals.

It is this outer layer which is responsible for our "higher functions" , our consciousness ....... all those things which we regard as the finest expressions of our species .

But since evolution doesn`t back up , so to speak , we have to contend with the subconscious influence of our older " reptilian "sub cortex on our neocortex.
The source of a lot of our woes as a modern human.
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We are capable of controlling / modulating the effect of our "primitive " animalistic brain , using our neocortex - responsible for the expression of higher culture / law/ ethics etc. etc.

This is a major thing to consider, we may have many many "influences" ....... but we are capable of " becoming conscious " of them .