If the Automakers were to be nationalized...

reply to post by asmall89


I see something like Fred Flintstone drove down the streets of Bedrock.

Mainly, human powered.

reply to post by pyrytyes


Oh nope you couldn't do that people breathing too heavily will create too much CO2 and thats bad for the environment.

Originally posted by asmall89
After seeing this, is it really in our best interest for our government to take over our Automakers? (I think not).

Commie Cars:
(mods feel free to move this wherever it belongs, thanks)

Uh, let's see, these countries had how much experience at building cars, compared to the USA? Apples to oranges I'd say.

Do you believe in planned obsolescence OP? Seems to me a lot of great cars are already made by that company you mentioned. Seems to me that it might be considered "commie" for all that data and blueprinting and tooling to be used to regenerate the classic styles of GM and Chrysler with updated and efficient guts? I'll take a 67 Camaro please. I don't need restyling or any other fluff. Just the same old body panels which I can get (actually can build a whole Camaro basically) from Year One parts or other suppliers.

What do you need all these union engineers for when they are being paid to produce non-innovative, stale crap? Look at the cars for Nascar c ompared to the 1970s. It's like they're frosting the same old cake but with spackle instead of even using frosting anymore. Car's are not hard to make cheaply, but salaries are hard to hide. Kinda like a beaten egg white expands in size dramatically? That's the analogy that seems to fit. They close plants, but they've been designing and selling planned crap for years. Now they're getting beaten by semi-socialist Japan whom the US supposedly vanquished in WW2?

I guess only commies would make something to last forver or re-use an old body style? I guess true Americans want to produce rental car fleet crap generation to generation? How much is the American desire for endless newness worth in the Ayn Rand financial model??

Me, I'll be comfortable in the Mad Max future at least from a car perspective because I prefer the classic cars which are dotted across America and which are so far superior in styling and which only need a bit of tinkering to make go. New cars are passe. Strap the right fuel injection on a classic V8 and it'll get great MPG.

I believe that the companies should be allowed to fail, no intervention. Better car companies will come along and take their place in this supposed free market system we have.

The difference between what the Russians did to that Italian car and what Americans do to our cars, is we actually improve them (usually). We don't take a modern car and equip it with drum brakes made out of aluminum. I actually think that GM and Ford have come out with some decent stuff lately. I've riden in a new Ford 150 and have to say it was probably the best new car I've been in lately.

I'm a hot rodder as well and I love my '67 Mustang I understand the fascination with cars as much as anyone. As hot rodders we like to improve on what we have, update it. Thats what the companies should have been doing in the 70's and early 80's but were over ridden with worrying about the Unions and Smog/economy controls put in by the government, they forgot to keep their eye on the ball. There's good cars out now too, but the reputation of the companies has just killed them for the past 20 years.

For instance, GM put the old Iron Duke in the Pontiac Fiero which ruined it, instead of putting the latest 16 valve 4 cylinder in. This is the type of stuff that killed the company. But what do hot rodders do? They take the car and stuff a V8 in it.
Thats what the American Car fascination is about, taking a good idea and making it better. Not going backwards.
I doubt the government will be any better at providing the cars with the latest and greatest.

Originally posted by asmall89
I believe that the companies should be allowed to fail, no intervention. Better car companies will come along and take their place in this supposed free market system we have.

True, IF we can keep the country together through the massive shake-up that would cause. If things proceed badly, cars might never return as we have them today. Also, roads will get worse in that scenario.

The difference between what the Russians did to that Italian car and what Americans do to our cars, is we actually improve them (usually). We don't take a modern car and equip it with drum brakes made out of aluminum.

Good point, but we also have to respect each others "intellectual property rights" yeah? This, I think, is a huge smokescreen behind which much car-pork is hidden. For example, if I invent the tech for disc brakes (better than drums) why, I then need to protect that invention and make sure that it only gets used A: When someone pays me, or B: When someone has enough legal might to subtely design a somewhat different disc brake. Although as the original inventor of the "official disc brake" I will sue them of course, but in the end, everyone will copy my design anyway. Lawyers and court workers and judges will be richer, of course.

I actually think that GM and Ford have come out with some decent stuff lately. I've riden in a new Ford 150 and have to say it was probably the best new car I've been in lately.

Yes, the truck division is different, so next question is: Is it good that more Americans are buying trucks? Well, I would have to say on a political level, the answer to that is yes because I want Americans to be mobile and enabled to travel. But even the biggest truck can be effectivly wrangled by the DMV so really the DMV are the ones who should colletively mobilize on the car makers since they're the ones who graft the people daily.

There's good cars out now too, but the reputation of the companies has just killed them for the past 20 years.

The cars of today can't be worked on by the buyer and that is where the soul of the US car manufacturer of the era we are discussing, lies.

If they wanted to really change things, they'd provide a free diagnostic repair computer which you could plug in and dial yur problems up easily and get parts for under 200 bucks. The cars of today support politics and repair divisions at dealerships. The cars of old were 100% in the hands of the buyer. The main question is: How do we keep the huge power-structure involved in owning a car dealership intact? And my answer would be, lose all car dealerships and have all car sales web based and have the car drivin to your house.

Also immediately find other professions for all mechanics. These manufacturers could, for example, use their own trucks to convert their mechanic-fleets into mobile repair fleets which interact with local mechanic shops.

I am saying all there needs to be is a shift to the older way of putting the whole car into the hands and driveways of the customers. If that means taking your mechanics and putting them on their backs under that new car AT the house of the buyer, then why not? They need to EMPOWER, not DISEMPOWER, the customers.

Everybody who is sucking off the human race for profit, be they opium manufacturers (UK/US sends in green-thumb teching corps to help them) or planned obsoklesecnce schem-sters unions of blind workers, ALL who are sucking off the productive labor of humans and not paying it forward toward humans in general, will be disempowered within the next 20 years, imo.

For instance, GM put the old Iron Duke in the Pontiac Fiero which ruined it, instead of putting the latest 16 valve 4 cylinder in. This is the type of stuff that killed the company. But what do hot rodders do? They take the car and stuff a V8 in it.

You are right and my question for you is this: If the Fiero was a great car and we can agree that it was DESIGNED cool but full of shat parts, then why can we not simply take all the CAD models of that car, slap in new suspension parts and a four banger with correct computerization of fuel/air and so on --WHY DO WE NEED SOME NEW CRAP? It's all been designed already. Lawyers and judges tell us that "stealing even from the unused past, is a crime, because those ideas/designs are still owned" but those designs don't ever get used!

It is as if we are talking about a convoy of ships (brands) here, all sinking, all with proven parts of floatation devices down in each of their hulls. Idiot captain and crew cannot figure out how to get those flotation devices (ideas already owned abd liked) out on deck! Who wouldn't want a retro or newly styled Fiero if it cost three-grand and had a PS2 built into the dashboard with every Sony PS2 game loaded onto a hard drive in the dashboard?? Do you see where I am going with this? Intellectual property says that we must let the old ideas and designs die, for if we simply lay hands on them and if there are not a thousand million phone calls and meetings between legal parties and profiteers, then we violate some archaeic code which says that ideas left dormant have value even in their slumber. I say, if your idea comes to frution, that smaler car co's come into the mix with this sort of rotten mix of DMV and Govt and GM/Ford in other countries... Well, I am sure GM and Ford can sue all the little guys quite easily from Brazil especially if they make anything that looks like a Fiero.

But seriously, redesign the Fiero (Pontiac is a great hot rodding brand) put better imprt style parts on it and a simple computer to dial four cylinders with fuel and air and it could rebuild the hot rodding culture in America overnight. Other countries are moving this machine under other brands, using American workers. What market relevance do GM and Ford have if not nostalgia?

GM is taking orders from Obama, sounds to me like GM is already nationalized.

They plan to put GM into bankruptcy, while using tax payer money as financial support.

Also, as someone who is in the auto industry and deals with all the manufacturers, it's not surprise to me that GM is the first to go. 80% of all cars in the US that are bought originate from the internet, and GM is easily the worse paying in that area. In my work, I do little to nothing to promote GM because it's a money loser to do so, where as Toyota and Honda pay much much more. Ford is not as good as Toyota and Honda, but is only slightly behind, but still miles ahead of GM. I keep GM around in case someone just wants a GM car that bad(and some do), but we don't spend any effort towards getting people too.

And that is also ignoring the basic demand in the different brands as well. And in the case where there is actual and legitimate demand for a GM car, GM won't pay anything towards it. Ford does this as well with the mustang, but Toyota and Honda do not.




[edit on 1-4-2009 by badmedia]

Anybody ever been to traffic court or hell? I heard there's no escape from traffic court. Ha ha.

Seriously, there's several spheres converging so even the amazing ideas and Alexandric-type thinking like I have displayed above, wouldn't work, because of the DMV.

NEWSFLASH: Americans are controlled by their wheelchairs. Oh you don't have a wheelchair? Tell it to the DMV. Tell it to the CHP, tell it to the Staties, Townies and Judges who milk, milk, mlik the desire of humans to travel.

So when that human desire to travel is only possible via some egg-shaped little dork-of-a-car which is super-hi-tech (you can't work on it) and which is actually looking more and more like a wheelchair every day, well, I think only a smallpeeps original graphic will help. No charge:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ae4e56b8b896.gif[/atsimg]

Enjoy the ride! He who dies with the most toys registered and licensed to the DMV wins!

reply to post by smallpeeps


I completely agree with what you have all you've said. And I'd definitely be for the diagnostic computer plug in you mentioned, I really wish they had that on the Fiero we used to own, we never knew what was wrong with it (probably because the whole computer & engine sucked). A good idea/design completely ruined by them.

But yeah after working on the Fiero I have no desire working on any car that has a computer on board, there's just no way to tell what exactly is wrong with your car with out a diagnostics test on it and it costs you a bit of money to get one done. Back before they started complicating everything, people could actually work on their machines but now it takes a specialized technician. But modern American & Japanese cars are nothing compared to European I remember on my sisters Audi 80 they placed the fuel injectors on top of the air filter, wtf? At least we haven't done that to my knowledge.

In my opinion the car companies just need to sit down and talk about everywhere they went wrong and maybe they'll realize it. Then they need to start doing the right thing by breaking itself up. Like the pic by the way, its so true.