Re: Humanoid Aliens

reply to post by iamjesusphish


he dont need to play any role in science even if there is a god figure after all why would he use tools that he gave u to work out this little predicement we are in

its depends on the denfinition of god and how the person see's the word.

I belive in god and aliens i dont see why i cant have both i mean after all it was an option provied for me to choose if its questionble its more than likey possible

sods law like monkeypiggy lol

reply to post by ChemBreather


lol i knew that would make you laugh.

Freaked me out for weeks lol

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by ChemBreather

 

lol i knew that would make you laugh.

Freaked me out for weeks

lol

sure did, Im just waiting for my million bucks you gonna show me next.....

But, God gave us the answeres and even if we fail to find it or understand it, dosnt mean he is wrong...

Genesis Time
Browse this page, it explains why evolution is impossible and only applies if you leave out the facts ! according to this site, we are in the day 6 of creation and supposedly we are at the end of the 7th day !! What hapends after the 7days? yea, it is monday all over again..

Originally posted by LogicalResponse
I think I'm being generous enough in even entertaining the idea that aliens are visiting earth in the first-place.

Start at square one.

It's a fact there are UFOs.
It's a fact these UFOs appear to be intelligently controlled.
It's a fact these UFOs possess performance capabilities which defy all known human aerospace technology.

It's also a fact the subject of UFOs is highly classified. There is a demonstrable effort by govt agencies to hide UFO knowledge, mislead and confuse the public, even to coverup the fact this information is collected in the first place.

There is plenty of evidence, yes evidence to backup everything I've said.
Consider everything in totality, without a prori assumptions. Alien visitation is the most logical explanation.

Compound that data with statements attesting to the reality of an alien presence by extremely credible scientists with security clearance, Dr. Eric Walker, Dr. Herman Oberth, and Dr. Robert Sarbacher, to name three, and I've got ample reasons to think aliens are visiting this planet.

Logically, I think human looking aliens could be explained by origination from a planet similar to Earth.

Guys, this conversation seems to be veering very far from its intended course. Discussion about deities, spiritual concepts, intelligent design and similar things are extremely large subjects in their own right and may require their own threads in order to allow room for elaboration . Perhaps they should just be saved for a later time.

Right now, I would like to focus on the likelihood of humanoid body-plans in relation to ET civilizations by route of evolution and biological selection. This means to keep things limited to (at least) semi-scientific restrictions. It is a speculative topic, absolutely, but there is no reason not to adhere to some basic framework in order to maintain a modicum of accuracy.

symmetricAvenger I will have bookmarked the video you linked me to and will have to view it at a later time. It appears to be an hour and a half long, which is more time than I have at the moment. Chances are it's going to have to wait until tomorrow. In the meantime, any possibility that you can give me a short description of what I'm about to watch so I know what I'm getting myself into?

reply to post by Schaden


Thats the point here..

Logically, I think human looking aliens could be explained by origination from a planet similar to Earth.

They would have logicaly been able to STAY here "enter the planet" and not die from god knows what in the first place !!!

and the other argment for the case of aliens that look like us imo is If indeed we are here via natural process then on a planet "like" ours given enough time "infinity helps" here you are bound to get aliens that look like Us

its basic logic 101



[edit on 30-3-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

reply to post by LogicalResponse


hey sure no problems im glad you book marked it.. all my arguments are based on mathmatics and facts not "god" or things like that i tend to leave that for when i die ; ) hehe nneewaays

I would like to focus on the likelihood of humanoid body-plans in relation to ET civilizations by route of evolution and biological selection.

That vid is for that question, he does alot better job than me going through all the steps and he really goes into detail hence the lengh of the vid.. he talks about evoultoin of man and Genes so its very helpfull for this debate i felt.. as its scientific and not just random WELL COZ IV SEEN ONE! kinda thing ..

and to further the question abotu how you could get a human type body plan from another planet kinda fits in to it also.. I had to mention the intervention aspect of it as looking human seems to be something given to us not enehently of this earth

so you may find that we are a hybrid of some sort ? but the basic shape helped. in selecting what one to make into a slave "sitchen" nibiru ect ect so it dovtails abit aswell into that...

But i would like to stick to the side of it that does not take into acount what he says about aliens and try to focus on the so called darwin standard model ect and no alien intervention.. as you want to keep it more specsifc and im happy to do that

reply to post by Schaden


You make some quite good points there

Heres an interesting link if you've not seen it before:

Humanoid Reports, 1000BC - Present
www.ufoinfo.com...

Cheers.

I apollagize if I went off-topic, wich I dont think my self.
As sayd, one will get humanoid looking aliens if they in a point in time came from somewhat the same source as us..

It is like making a dough you can bake difrent types of cookies with kind of thing, same ingreediences, diffrent shape.. ..

Hope I didnt ruin your thread... Salute ..

reply to post by Schaden


For the sake of the subject I am entertaining the idea of ET visitors as reported by various witnesses so we can have a foundation to work from. It is not my normal position on the matter, though.

With that said, I just wanted to address some things in your reply before moving forward.

It's a fact there are UFOs.
It's a fact these UFOs appear to be intelligently controlled.
It's a fact these UFOs possess performance capabilities which defy all known human aerospace technology.

Facts must be scientifically examined, verified and repeated through a course of rigorous testing and trials. More importantly, they require proof.

There exists no proof that any of these things are alien craft, which is what some people are claiming.

Are there UFOs? Yes. That is a fact. There are flying objects that cannot be identified.

It's a fact these UFOs appear to be intelligently controlled

I think I've said somewhere else on this forum: "Almost all UFO proponents argue that some sightings are of objects that "seem intelligent." Regardless of the noncommittal phrasing, they then use this evaluation to argue that the phenomena cannot be of ordinary or natural origin. That is, they use it as a means of falsifying other hypotheses. That line of reasoning is valid only if the phenomenon is actually argued to be an intelligently-directed vehicle, not merely one that "seems" intelligent. Hence the non-commitment occurs only to soften the premise when stated and to preclude immediate objection; it is negated in subsequent argument, when disputing the premise becomes untimely."

But once we get away from the question of UFOs being alien craft, and once we remove doubt of their existence we are still left with a very large problem: Human-like alien beings.

There a few replies of mine somewhere towards the beginning of this thread that address in specific why humanoid aliens present a logical conundrum. Evolution and biology (at least the very limited knowledge-base that our science has on the subject) suggests, by all reason, that intelligent alien life forms would be extremely unusual or exotic in nature.Therefore, proposing that they resemble the typical alien gray depicted in popular culture is glaringly inaccurate.

ok this is how one would infact get human looking aliens "thats if infact we are the standard model"

we have a gizzilion stars or whatever i dunno but we got alot.. now we know that our life is has afew simple things water heat dont get bashed by big rocks to offeten..

So how do we look for life like ours well we search for planets that can sustain our kinda life "no point in looking in places we dont think about"..

Now if that planet is like ours then it would give rise to close paramaters that made life on earth "becuase thats what we are looking for" so we automaticly would kinda have earth 2.0 now lets just say its got life on it..

would it have grass? most proberbly.. multicelled life most proberbly would have the same evolution path "most proberbly not" BUT! and this is the kicker.. it could infact have dinosors still ON IT!! how funny would that be hehe neways life on this planet may and proberbly is the very same bog standard thing but the more it devieds or something the more complex it gets "in the sens of looks ect" but you would still have the possiblity of it giving rise to a human some what looking creatur becouse of the paramata sets here on earth!

Now infinity is also a funny word because we have so many chances that life can do its thing eve if its on the other side of our known uniiverse the chances are its happen.

why? because we are the top of the food chain "even befor we was made or created in his image" ect ect

Nature itself dictates the best design for ones enviroment and Man is the best design by far "as it shows" so regardless of if buts whens and why Nature is the daddy and she plays by the rules set by the universe..

Thats how one would get a human type figure on another planet "but it is restricted to A planet of our type.. as you stated Not all live will be humanoid and i would find that equaly shocking as we are the only aliens that walk on 2 leg have arms ect ect

The odd against it are to great as our planet is made the same as every other planetry body baring the mixture but we could find one very close to ours and we only have to look at our own soloar system to see that

reply to post by LogicalResponse


Evolution and biology (at least the very limited knowledge-base that our science has on the subject) suggests, by all reason, that intelligent alien life forms would be extremely unusual or exotic in nature.

But befor they do make this statement they never use planet earth as there model, hence why the aliens will look nothing like the ones found on our planet.

do not forget that earth has gone through changes its gravity was less thats why dinos were so big and trees were humungus..

effects will make allll the difference to the outcome of ones body I understand this, but a human has many counterpart thats why we get verations in every speices because nature always trys the find the best path to keep life going.. and on a planet like earth given the right timeframe would produce something similar to us.. or dinos or a palathar of other wierd and wonderfull stuff

Originally posted by LogicalResponse
Why do UFO proponents, "contactees," "abductees" and other supporters always seem to depict their aliens as humanoid? Why are they insistent that these alleged life-forms follow the human body-plan?

There is some loaded language here that reveals assumptions. 'Depict' indicates that their description is creative rather than a simple report on what they observed. And 'follows the human body plan' implies that the body plan is exclusively human. We don't know that. And, judging by eyewitness reports of non human 'humanoids', it is not exclusively human. It's rather anthrocentric to speak of 'humanoids' and somehow imagine that this 'body plan' somehow 'belongs' to us.

Even if the entire process of evolution on earth were re-simulated with all of the original parameters of biological genesis in place, we still wouldn't come out looking the same. So why would a visitor from an alien world look like us? It's a near guarantee that they wouldn't.

Can you prove any of this? I don't believe so. Any conclusions that as based on this assumption are unsound. Therefore we cannot rule out the idea that some ET's might have a similar 'body plan' based on this assumption.

Let me give you one example ( out of possible billions: )....

Your example is of a race that did not evolve into 'humanoids'. However, no one is claiming that all ET races evolved into humanoids, only that some did and that some of those humanoid races, as well as perhaps non humanoid races, have visited earth. Therefore I don't see your example as being particularly relevant. As is evdent by your comment that:

Their 'ships' and other components melt, explode or "die" when exposed to earth temperatures and pressures...

Small wonder then that most of the ETs thats are reported are not of the type you hypothesize. The rest of your description is highly speculative and your "they would" this "they would have to" the other does not really stand scrutiny IMO because you are imposing limits that derive from a lack of imagination rather than the constraints of physics.

And that is just ONE example of ONE type of world that life could develop on.

Indeed, an example designed to support your belief. But just because you describe a non humanoid ET race that would have trouble visiting earth in no way proves that there are not also many humanoid ET races who are quite capable of visiting earth.

My point is this: Considering the possibilities of life in the universe, how intelligent life developed on earth, and how the mechanism of evolution itself works - the idea of humanoid aliens is absurd

But you completely failed to prove your point. The 'mechanisms of evolution' you invoke do not render humanoids appearing on more than one planet "absurd" or even unlikely at all because we do not have a full understanding of the mechanics of evolution nor of how similar planets may engender similar evolutionary paths.

That is not to mention that fact that it is an assumption that these various humanoid ET races that are reported to have visited earth have completely independent evolutionary paths from humans. We don't know that at all. That's the point, there is so much we do not know as yet that talk of "it's highly unlikely" or "it's impossible" is based more on our ignorance than our knowledge.

Something from another planet, with absolutely no similarities to earth...will get pretty weird pretty fast. At least by our standards.

True, but something from a similar planet could well be reasonable familiar, as in humanoid.

I don't see why they would even remotely resemble earth life.

Because their planets may more than remotely resemble earth? And that is not the only possible reason.


[edit on 30-3-2009 by Malcram]

Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by LogicalResponse
Why do UFO proponents, "contactees," "abductees" and other supporters always seem to depict their aliens as humanoid? Why are they insistent that these alleged life-forms follow the human body-plan?

There is some loaded language here that reveals assumptions. 'Depict' indicates that their description is creative rather than a simple report on what they observed. And 'follows the human body plan' implies that the body plan is exclusively human. We don't know that. And, judging by eyewitness reports of non human 'humanoids', it is not exclusively human. It's rather anthrocentric to speak of 'humanoids' and somehow imagine that this 'body plan' somehow 'belongs' to us.

Even if the entire process of evolution on earth were re-simulated with all of the original parameters of biological genesis in place, we still wouldn't come out looking the same. So why would a visitor from an alien world look like us? It's a near guarantee that they wouldn't.

Can you prove any of this? I don't believe so. Any conclusions that as based on this assumption are unsound. Therefore we cannot rule out the idea that some ET's might have a similar 'body plan' based on this assumption.

Let me give you one example ( out of possible billions: )....

Your example is of a race that did not evolve into 'humanoids'. However, no one is claiming that all ET races evolved into humanoids, only that some did and that some of those humanoid races, as well as perhaps non humanid races, have visited earth. Therefore I don't see your example as being particularly relevant. As is evdent by your comment that:

Their 'ships' and other components melt, explode or "die" when exposed to earth temperatures and pressures...

Small wonder then that most of the ETs thats are reported are not of the type you hypothesize. The rest of your description is highly speculative and your "they would" this "they would have to" the other does not really stand scrutiny IMO because you are imposing limits that derive from a lack of imagination rather than the constraints of physics.

And that is just ONE example of ONE type of world that life could develop on.

Indeed, an example designed to support your belief. But just because you describe a non humanoid ET race that would have trouble visiting earth in no way proves that there are not also many humanoid ET races who are quite capable of visiting earth.

My point is this: Considering the possibilities of life in the universe, how intelligent life developed on earth, and how the mechanism of evolution itself works - the idea of humanoid aliens is absurd

But you completely failed to prove your point. The 'mechanisms of evolution' you invoke do not render humanoids appearing on more than one planet "absurd" or even unlikely at all because we do not have a full understanding of the mechanics of evolution nor of how similar planets may engender similar evolutionary paths.

That is not to mention that fact that it is an assumption that these various humanoid ET races that are reported to have visited earth have completely independent evolutionary paths from humans. We don't know that at all. That's the point, there is so much we do not know as yet that talk of "it's highly unlikely" or "it's impossible" is based more on our ignorance than our knowledge.

Something from another planet, with absolutely no similarities to earth...will get pretty weird pretty fast. At least by our standards.

True, but something from a similar planet could well be reasonable familiar, as in humanoid.

I don't see why they would even remotely resemble earth life.

Because their planets may more than remotely resemble earth? And that is not the only possible reason.

[edit on 30-3-2009 by Malcram]

Thumbs UP dude.

There is some loaded language here that reveals assumptions. 'Depict' indicates that their description is creative rather than a simple report on what they observed. And 'follows the human body plan' implies that the body plan is exclusively human. We don't know that. And, judging by eyewitness reports of non human 'humanoids', it is not exclusively human. It's rather anthrocentric to speak of 'humanoids' and somehow imagine that this 'body plan' somehow 'belongs' to us.

Then I am going to be very clear: I propose that a humanoid design would be an incredibly unlikely result considering the variety of conditions that life may evolve from.

I'm not saying that the specific body-plan is somehow our sole property. I am saying that it could be a very unlikely result in a biosphere like our own.

Can you prove any of this? I don't believe so. Any conclusions that as based on this assumption are unsound. Therefore we cannot rule out the idea that some ET's might have a similar 'body plan' based on this assumption.

Scientists have run this type of simulation before and many like it. It's not so much my conclusion as it is that of those who study the possibility of extraterrestrial life or how life evolved here on earth. But I agree with their findings regardless.

Most recently, an augmented version of this was run in order to help support the existence of earth-like planets in our galaxy: www.cnn.com...

And no, we cannot absolutely rule out that some species somewhere in the universe will develop a similar physical arrangement of that of human beings. It is just incredibly unlikely.

Your example is of a race that did not evolve into 'humanoids'.

And they couldn't because of the environment they developed in. Planets that resemble earth's conditions are assumed to be incredibly rare and by far aren't necessarily the only kind of environment that could foster life. To say so is geocentric.

no one is claiming that all ET races evolved into humanoids, only that some did and that some of those humanoid races, as well as perhaps non humanid races, have visited earth. Therefore I don't see your example as being particularly relevant.

Actually, nobody has been really specific about what kind of lifeforms they are claiming are visiting us. But consdering the replies the consensus seems to be that they are typical "grays" or humanoid aliens. Nobody has given an example of or even mentioned non-humanoid aliens being a possibility aside from what I already described in the OP. So far everything seems to be in defense of or in support of the humanoid ET, and not the other way around.

So, yes, it is plenty relevant.

Small wonder then that most of the ETs thats are reported are not of the type you hypothesize.

Well, that and I made them up.

I also mentioned they would theoretically have the technology and ability to design probes or craft that could function just fine in almost any environment unlike their own. If interstellar travel is possible there would be no reason to believe that they couldn't do so.

The rest of your description is highly speculative

There was never a question that it wasn't.

and your "they would" this "they would have to" the other does not really stand scrutiny IMO because you are imposing limits that derive from a lack of imagination rather than the constraints of physics.

I'm not even sure what you are referencing here. What kind of limits have I imposed on my hypothetical race or even the races described by others in this thread? What problems exist that a sufficiently advanced technology couldn't solve?

There's hardly any lack of imagination here. If any existed, it would be in the assumption that aliens must absolutely resemble us.

Indeed, an example designed to support your belief.

Which doesn't differ at all from the examples provided by others in order to support their beliefs in humanoid ETs. But we also established that this was a speculative thread from the very beginning.

But just because you describe a non humanoid ET race that would have trouble visiting earth in no way proves that there are not also many humanoid ET races who are quite capable of visiting earth.

Humanoid ETs were never completely ruled out. They were simply deemed exceptionally improbable.

But you completely failed to prove your point.

Apparently not.

The 'mechanisms of evolution' you invoke do not render humanoids appearing on more than one planet "absurd" or even unlikely at all because we do not have a full understanding of the mechanics of evolution nor of how similar planets may engender similar evolutionary paths.

They certainly do. Life doesn't necessarily have to evolve on earth-like planets. Considering that, there is absolutely no way intelligent life would resemble human beings if - for instance - it developed on a world with a chlorine atmosphere and 8x our gravity. There is always this assumption that life can only develop on worlds similar to our own. So why replace one 'imposed limitation' with another?

reply to post by Donnie Darko


I'm not sure if your blatant back-patting is obvious enough, Donnie.

I am transposing my reply to you in the Lacerta thread:

Well, because there maybe certain universal archetypes on the kind of bodies that can be evolved, and humanoid might be one of them. Remember, evolution isn't a random process, there are certain principles operating behind the process of mutation which so far in science are unknown. Note, that a technological species will need to evolve the ability to manipulate tools and be able to stand up and stabalize their weight. What they evolve needs to have some kind of biological function. So while theoretically one could imagine a species with 10 eyes, biologically there may be no function for 10 eyes and thus 10 eyes would not evolve.

Again I need to stress none of our sciences are complete: whether that is physics or biology. We cannot say whether humanoid forms are rare or common. So if reports of ET's are mostly humanoid we cannot have any valid objection to them being humanoid.

I compare people like the op to people who believed the earth to be flat 500 years ago... besides "theory"what else do you have to back up your claims that aliens shouldn't look humanoid? do you realize that the galaxy is a pretty big place..? and just in our galaxy alone according to the drake equation there are possibly countless civilizations? I noticed you attacked us "conspiracy nuts" which is fine. .. in the future people will be laughing at anyone who thought there was no other sentient life out there.. just like people who laugh at people who thought the earth was flat. you are putting limitations on our universe and galaxy.. putting limitations on things that not even our top scientists fully understand...to say that life couldn't have formed bipedal elsewhere is just as ignorant as stating the earth is flat..... Until we traverse the sea of the galaxy or they officially meet us its very arrogant of you to state what they would or should look like...

[edit on 30-3-2009 by thefreepatriot]

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
I compare people like the op to people who believed the earth to be flat 500 years ago... besides "theory"what else do you have to back up your claims that aliens shouldn't look humanoid? do you realize that the galaxy is a pretty big place..? and just in our galaxy alone according to the drake equation there are possibly countless civilizations? I noticed you attacked us "conspiracy nuts" which is fine. .. in the future people will be laughing at anyone who thought there was no other sentient life out there.. just like people who laugh at people who thought the earth was flat. you are putting limitations on our universe and galaxy.. putting limitations on things that not even our top scientists fully understand...to say that life couldn't have formed bipedal elsewhere is just as ignorant as stating the earth is flat..... Until we traverse the sea of the galaxy or they officially meet us its very arrogant of you to state what they would look like...

I believe you are confusing what I said with some idea that I am dismissing the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligence.

In fact, as you will discover in this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com... I hardly dismiss the idea that they could have been pretty close to us actually.

[edit on 3/30/2009 by LogicalResponse]