Life is NOT precious...

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posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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I make this thread to open a debate about a topic that is usually discussed in many other threads.

When any thread has some sort of death related to it, the flow of conversation is usually directed towards something different then what was originally planned.

Whether or not LIFE is "valuable"

Now, to get a better understanding on my perspective, I will give a layout of myself, my beliefs, and history.

As a child up until now, my family has always been in a relatively decent financial situation. Better than most, but not "rich". What I like to call, upper middle class.

My dad always works and my mothers job is practically being a mother. It has been their duty together to raise a functional family that stays close together, and so far, it has.

I am currently in high school, but life so far has been great. But that isn't my point. I have seen dropouts, drug addicts, athletes, everyone, change. Some for the worse and others for the better.

Now, lets speak of the drug addicts (this is not a discussion about legality or whether it is good or not - but the environment many are put in) and how they work. I see fights, no respect for their peers or themselves. I live in a good area of town as well...it is not like many of them are "poor".

But when someone, anyone, harms another person - they lose all respect from me. When I hear of a murder or a beat down, their own life (in my eyes) has been degraded. They are no longer helpful to society (if they ever were in the first place), but a parasite. A leech who encourages black market trade along with harming those who actually help.

THOSE people, should be gotten rid of. Or, without beating around the bush, killed.

We as a species are in it together and IMO, our goal is to better our lives. People like that do not help.

People included in that group are those who abuse welfare, etc. Any person who takes more out of the system than putting in.

Now, that shapes my view on everything. The human race is a species just like any other, just gifted with intelligence. I do not believe in heaven and hell, so I also think the rules of survival sort of apply to all species simultaneously. There are many species out there who eat their babies, get rid of them early on, make them fight other siblings, etc.

I do not see how we are exempt from such type of rules. Why must we cherish every life when some are not fit for this world? When some just leech off of YOUR work?

The title may be a bit misleading. I still believe that there are MANY, in fact most, of the lives on this planet are precious. Engineers, teachers, waitresses, food makers, etc, all help society. Those are the true lives we should be treasuring.

This topic also relates to abortion.

Most of the time, it is the uneducated, mainly the poor but not always, who find themselves in these situations.

If there is one of the non-precious lives, which I have already defined, who have a baby, the chances I see that the baby will turn out the same outweigh the latter. That is why I support abortion. I just see it being another face I will have to feed, and potentially another criminal.

Yes, there will be the exceptions like anything. As stated in another thread, that baby that was NOT aborted could be the next Einstein...or Hitler. I just view it as another person on welfare.

To make this thread a rap I will just say this.

We as a species are in it together. I believe we all should work on a fair system, and there should not be people who can get away with doing nothing, just leeching off of others. When I get the feeling that there is someone who will be like that or is, is when I think their life is not precious. That is when, I do not care for their life.

I would love to see your thoughts on this situation, which is discussed so much in other threads but not given the light it deserves. I will not even bother replying to those with a few sentences...at least do your best to try and prove your point.



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posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 09:03 PM
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So you argue that all violent people should be violently killed?

So you argue that all people not contributing to society should be round up and shot?

Are you saying that people can't change, and that people don't even have a right to live and make mistakes?

What are you trying to accomplish OP? While these ideas may make up your version of a utopia , I think I speak for a good many people when I say that you sound your advocating a totalitarian nightmare where everyone is a slave constantly facing the barrel of a gun.

Please correct me if I misunderstood.


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posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by FritosBBQTwist
 




I am currently in high school...


so, what has your big contribution to this world been so far...



THOSE people, should be gotten rid of. Or, without beating around the bush, killed.


besides advocating murder?

you just lost all respect from me

I don't know whether this is enough sentences for you or not - but, it's OK if you don't reply - I don't really need one



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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I too, am in high school, so I can relate. I understand that those that seem to CHOOSE to live the lower lot in life, like take drugs, choose the party life, engage in harmful sexual activities and/or just be a bum and loaf off of society can make me frustrated. I find it very annoying and sad that some people choose to live unsustainable lives even though it will harm them. They know that what they do is wrong, they knew that it would end them up in a mess, yet they still choose to live a life of "pleasure' regardless of what becomes of them.

One word: Consumerism.

It's plagued our society, mainly in the states, and people have chosen to LIVE FOR THE MOMENT. This, and I cannot stress it enough, is what is killing us. They want that next high, they want to escape problems by drowning in alcohol and laughs, they want to escape, they want that next material object, they want to look a certain way, they want to feel a certain way, and they want it now. Today's people want to get what they can out of life, with little to no regard to other life around them, or future consequences. What can we do? How can we combat human nature?

I read a quote somewhere, and it said "In the Soviet Union, democracy triumphed over Capitalism, in America, Capitalism triumphs over democracy" That is actually my grad quote because there is so much truth over it. Bloated corporations and the almighty dollar is what is killing us, causing dropouts, depression and the constant strive to be better, only to ultimately fail in the attempt to crush those beneath you to end up on top.

So, we need a way to kill this, to end the overly involved large corporations in our lives and their propaganda to propel us in telling us what we need, making us spend and strive to get that next fleshy desire. It's wrong. So what uniform, governing body can control and influence an entire nation? Government.

I know, my suggestion is heretical here on ATS, but I see it as the only way. We should not kill those that "plague us" and are "parasites" but instead enforce change. A benevolent Government must step in and take charge, to the point of Authoritarianism if we want to defeat consumerism and the selfish desire. If we can change an entire nation at once, we will become collective and serve each other instead of our flesh. When we learn how important each life is, then maybe we will value someone just as much as ourselves, and maybe then, we won't do such stupid things.

Hope my opinion has had some insight.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 09:21 PM
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I can understand your post, but one key thing you miss out is education, and im not talking the bull# they teach in school.

You see from the begining of time "for man" we have had many questions that need asking

here are 2 of them Who is God and Why are we here... Now take them out of this equation, it makes our task somewhat more understandble as to what infact is going on down on little old rock we call earth..

Hypothiersise this!

Humans were created by a nautral prosscess according to how the universe works and functions "dont add astal plane and diminetions ect" just think nature for now, we roam about and evolve.. we are pack hunters who then formed into tribes, Now this is the tricky part as we know ritual stuff "worshiping of the sun and the stars" mostly for food ect.. ok? so lets keep moving "this methord" was a big Bulb moment for the people in charge "tell them anything and they will follow us + abit of fear into the mix is always good"..

Now we get to a moden day verision of this "religion" in some respects holds many of the same functions BUT with the God aspect or the "messenger" call him her what you want..

Now this only happend "so we are told" on avrage 2000 years ago BUT we know the planet is atleast 5billion years old..

Did god get bored? neways..

So now we have this in place, how do we make an even more affective system? We introduce MONEY.. you see money has on thing that relgion does not "a face"..

It is only used in a sens of "identity" with ones homeland and in this is more easy to use to nail you.. Euro usd yen ect, all based on the same princilples "controll"..

Now when it comes to human socity we tend to over look WHO or WHAT is infact running the show here. and its in our face WE ARE we are the ones who minipulate We are the ones who go to war WE are the ones who think money has a value "we are the ones who make POOR" a reality.. Humans "the smart ones" will always use there best wepon against other humans "there mind".. everythning we do see and here is a minipluation of the masses to keep them dumb and like sheep. being yourself is against the order of the day and the reason why is "without order you indeed get chaos" a chaos that is void of power that other men wish to wield upon other men..

Its not a problem of how we live or god or anything els we wish to point at to shy away from the fact some men are stupid and others are not..

its the law of the jungle and just becuase you dont live in one dont ever think the lion sleeps becuase he sure as hell does not..

The sooner people wake up to the fact of this the better.. We are one race who use prides and pacs and tribes as a way to find common ground. our so called leadrs are abusing the very thing we trust in them and that is friendship and trust.

This is key..

I point you to the mear little ant.. oh how very tiny you are mr ant but very smart and how very dumb you make the so called Top of the apex human look..

If god wanted to creat man in his own image and in his own likeness, the universe would not be here for humans are DEFUNKED by blindness and totaly aragance of there own self importance.

If i had a choice. i would be an ant, humans are there own worst enermy and it stinks.




posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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you cant change anyone and look at the power they have over you.

you cannot determine the value of a life based solely on productivity....

furthermore, there are far many more solutions to our problems than killing off the ''leeches''..

who is anyone to say anyone is a leech and that they aren't one themselves?

furthermore, you are what you hate.

and finally, you bring up many points that I did when I was your age...try surviving without your parents and provide for yourself and truly experience life without any help whatsoever....you will find that your mindset can change from experience of life.


I personally believe that rehabilitation is key...


people are products of their environments and even more so, products of their thoughts and attitudes shaped by their environment.....

but if you take anything away from this, take away the knowledge that you have to be the change you want to see.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:00 PM
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Well imho i think this is crazy, you highschool students and your ideas. Speaking about the fact that these "bad" people are looking twards thier next fun time and to have certain needs and are useless to society at large. Have you thought about yourself or people you know in school? Every school has clicks, every student has needs and wants. oh mommy/daddy can i get the next cool gaming system or that really awsome phone or this new kick -** shirt so i can fit into some click? Now adays even the goths (outcasts and loosers in my day) have a click. What pray tell do you contribute to society? Nothing except idiotic ideas. You plan to change after highschool right? Or are you planning on becoming a squeegee kid on the corner using a squeegee to wipe windows and make money to eat but not pay taxes? Well some of these "bad" people need to learn what the bottom is in order to pick themselves up and get back in the game of life. The ones who are a menace to society are dealt with and put away out of societies sight. Granted they are still sucking money from us. But hey maybe you should ask mommy and daddy how much you cost to live and then figure out if they should buy you that next awsome item you want for xmas.

Get out and get a job and start helping us to pay for your education. Which by the way i want my money back, cause obviously it's money being wasted.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by anubis9311
 


I find this extraordinarily offensive. And what Spira said, too. As a high school student, I volunteer most of my time. I work for my grades, and my GPA is over a 4.0. I cannot pay for college and neither can my parents, even though both have degrees above Masters from Ivy league schools, and due to the economy and unemployment we are in debt. I am taking out loans under my own name and have no problem paying them off after college.

Some high schoolers don't have their heads on right, but please, don't generalize. I intern for free for many organizations, I tutor two girls, one is a Freshman in high school and the other is a 5th grader. I send out my own resumes, I do my own work, I don't have a car, and I set goals for the type of career that I want in the future.

I found what you wrote very offensive and I implore you not to pin your generalizations of my generation on all of us, because honestly, I am a contributing member of society. I have worked at hospitals, businesses, I have tutored, I have worked at blood drives, I do research work and submit it to organizations, I network myself (instead of having my parents lay my path for me), I get good grades, I applied to college myself, I got into my number one school, I pick up litter when I go hiking, and I donate a portion of any money that I get for birthdays and holidays, and I put most of the rest in the bank.

If you still think I'm a stupid high schooler, then I have some words for you that I would not put on this website. ATS has just preached against personal attacks and that's exactly what you just did. My situations is proving you wrong. Sorry.

And in addition, even with my grades, work ethic, and experience with different student organizations I was given no scholarships because I opted not to take AP classes because instead I took three extra science classes, two extra english classes, two extra math classes, and an independent study. I also was granted very little financial aid because my father was employed from February of last year to December. It was his first job in three years and he is currently unemployed since December, but the government ruled that based on our income last year I deserve to pay for college in loans, even though because of the cost of living we are currently in debt. Therefore, I have no problem paying for it myself, but if more people supported educations, students like myself could attend college for free, instead of paying over $100,000 total of my own money after graduation. For my undergrad degree.

These are MY contributions. I know many adults who have never done half of the volunteer work that I have, who have gotten free rides their entire lives. Just because I'm in high school does not mean I am worthless.

[edit on 3/29/2009 by ravenshadow13]



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:22 PM
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You said you don't believe in heaven or hell, not sure where you are with religion/spirituality but promoting spirituality or whatever you want to call it, should be our biggest priority as a world. If the energy isn't for that purpose, then there is no use debating or discussing anything. And killing people that are lesser off is not going to be helping us in any meaningful way.

Who is not fit for this world? Between genetics and a poor environment, where is the personal freedom for these "lesser" beings? They didn't choose their genes, family, or crappy public education system. Or a person who is "quality" gets hit in the head and can't work. Should he be killed since it's a drain on the system?

Ayn Rand or whatever her name is has a similar idea to yours I would say. She would say basically, "Well kill me then, that's fair". But is that really how it'd be? For about 99% they would be asking for help.

[edit on 29-3-2009 by ghaleon12]



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:37 PM
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Imagine for a moment, (really try to imagine this), that your did not live on the right side of the tracks, and that your parents were not upper-middle class, but very, very poor. Your dad still goes to work everyday, sometimes for 60+ hours a week, and your mom looks for work wherever she can...you live in a subsidised housing project, even though your dad works a lot, and is never around because of it, it is just too expensive to move somewhere else. All the kids in your neighborhood are derilects and drug users. They never really believed that life could be any other way. (Maybe their parents do drugs too..). The high school where you go has bars on the windows, no football field, and seriously supervised detention, (think metal detectors). There are no clubs to join, and all the kids at school are ill behaved...got that?? Would you have the strength of character (not instilled by your environment) to rise above this situation? Now, imagine you are born into even worse poverty, homelessness and illness. Utter destitution. (Think starving babies in Africa).

YOU THINK YOUR LIFE IS MORE VALUABLE THAN THOSE WHO HAVE SUFFERED GREAT OPPRESSION????

I am sure that you will experience adversity in your life, and this will help. The bottom line is that no one life is any more "valuable" than the next...and to assert that we should round up and kill non-productive oppressed people is the most disturbing thing I have read in quite some time, and I read a lot.

There is a deep concern for your growth and well being, and I hope that your intolerance can be attributed to your youth. Reassess these ideas...put yourself in the shoes of others prior to passing judgments, empathy is a good thing.

That said, I can understand why you are so frustrated...high school is just the start...really. This might be a good thread to show to your parents, and it may be time to reconsider the influence their sociopolitical positions have had on you. Your life has NO value in the name of hate, so you must learn to over come.

One last thought: people overcome adversity everyday. They stop using drugs, the get off welfare, they contribute and produce. Why would you ever think it is right to deny someone the oppertunity to change and grow into the best possible them? (and by execution no less). I feel disturbed.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by anubis9311
 


You obviously don't know where your coming from. Maybe you solely relied on your parents to fund you, but as for many highschool students these days, we have jobs, even if they are lower class jobs. But in any case, they do fund our "habbits" that we do to fit into "cliques". Don't get me wrong, I love my parents to death and raising children is expensive, but now, I do not rely on them to get me the next gaming system or t-shirt. Like I said, most kids my age have jobs.

Yes, sometimes it takes someone to reach rock bottom before they realize what needs to be changed, but wouldn't it be best if we could quicken the process and eliminate that step? It would prevent much pain and hardship. Benevolence is key, but if you don't agree to that, then you can continue living in your consumer-saturated heaven, feeding your flesh with little regard to others. It's a democracy, so it's your choice.

You under-estimate the ability of the people that will be a part of your future. Us "high school kids" sometimes go on to University and College, and are the ones who will run your country, put your tax paying dollars, serve you your food, take care of you in a hospital or care home, make your life better or make it worse. Don't get me wrong, I don't have the experience of an adult, but I have ambition and the will to get it done. Being already accepted to University due to my high marks, and going into Political science and Business, there is a good chance I may be the one handling your money or making administrative decisions that will effect YOU.

If YOU have a problem with the BENEVOLENT and COLLECTIVE ideologies of a select few young people who stand out from the average, consumer driven teenager of today, then go ahead and raise your own children and hope they turn out to be exactly what you want; Selfish consumers.

Or maybe head back to high-school yourself.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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people are products of their environments and even more so, products of their thoughts and attitudes shaped by their environment....

I agree with this!!

But i also think raven is being put in the same pot as the OP in some ways.. not everyone is a leech..

But then humans aint perfect no matter how many good and bad people we lable the fundermental flaw is us as a hole and how we treat each and view each other

Like i said ants have more brains than humans "team players" i dont see no team play from humans only madated laws that we think make us who we are when infact they only limit us to one system..

the joke is on us all regardelss of money or what job you have.. at the end of the day they are both pointless and only reason why you have a job is to make some other prat rich and keep the system going..

I wonder how many people have hunted there own food or would infact hunt there food everynight for a week in the jungle with no car no tv no flashy ipod

very low im guessing..

That is the REAL us this us we have now is FAKE and we all play the game we are the ones to blame for every crappy thing that happens on this planet.. not god but YOU AND ME.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by For(Home)Country
 


You're right. I mean, I basically just wrote the same thing before. But getting into college or university doesn't mean everything because people with money can go to college even if they're failing everything. Or like, you can get straight As and A+s like me and not get any financial help for school when you need it.

The system is flawed. But it's fine. Really.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by symmetricAvenger
 


It's funny because I think, at least among my friends, more and more of us have learned to hunt or forage for things. Spent the time learning which plants are edible and which are inedible. I mean, I do that... but most people my age just go to Starbucks.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by ravenshadow13
reply to post by For(Home)Country
 


You're right. I mean, I basically just wrote the same thing before. But getting into college or university doesn't mean everything because people with money can go to college even if they're failing everything. Or like, you can get straight As and A+s like me and not get any financial help for school when you need it.

The system is flawed. But it's fine. Really.

You're right, the system is flawed, and because of demands for the perfect financial means, we are losing out on a lot of good people that will never get the good education, reputation and prerequisites for certain jobs that they would truly make a positive difference in.

However, if someone wants to spend thousands of dollars in education and end up failing, I don't care because that money will just keep the good professors teaching.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:50 PM
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Since you have lived in an ivory tower all your life, your functional values are very nice. Would that all those you are judging be from such a world as well, though many are not.
It takes a great deal of trauma to break many people, to destroy their self esteem so that only bullying, top dogging or hurting another gives them any feeling of control over their lives. This is all psychosis and it is deliberately put upon billions of people who are not so fortunate. And I don't believe any of these people are worthy of your disrespect. Though you may need to protect yourself from them, their presence should make you very aware that the leaders and the cartel and the system that delights in turning them out so they can have complete mastery over the human race, but keeps a small number safe like you to feel good, and continue to vote them in, needs to be changed ASAP. Before you play the numbers game, please go and look at all the little newborns in the hospital. Then go "one,t wo, three, four...you're out!"

Me, I'm for healing the human race, and throwing the cartel off this planet.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by For(Home)Country
 


Well like honestly I cannot afford the college that I'm going to. But it's so unique and I know I will do well there, and it provides a lot of opportunities for me and doors to get to where I want to be. So like... I'm taking it all out in loans when my boyfriend who has uneducated parents and lives in an area with like no cost of living gets to go for basically nothing. But in the end I'll be in a ton of debt but I'll be happy and I'll have the career that I want, and make the changes that I want to see made. So... in the end... four years from now you will hear me saying "Oh man, I owe over $100 thousand bucks... and have no apartment and need to find a job" but I think in the end it will be best for me.

I think that says something. I'm willing to put myself in debt for a good chunk of my life so I can study what I want to study, in a place where I can do well.

Bummer. But, whatever, lots of people owe money. I guess I should owe some money, too.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by FritosBBQTwist
 




I am currently in high school...


so, what has your big contribution to this world been so far...



THOSE people, should be gotten rid of. Or, without beating around the bush, killed.


besides advocating murder?

you just lost all respect from me

I don't know whether this is enough sentences for you or not - but, it's OK if you don't reply - I don't really need one


My current contributions?

Have a job.
Go to school for its purpose...not to find the parties for the weekend.
Don't disrespect anyone like most people.
Will get further education and a good job.

More than 90% of other kids my age. What do you expect me to be doing now, running a business? Do not be naive and realize that I am talking about the old bums who do not give two craps about their life and only feed off of others.

For the education part. No, I am not advocating for us to round up everyone who doesn't follow a strict guideline.

As any average ATSer can see, the topic on whether or not life is valued enough in society is argued over across all the boards. My point I am trying to make is that there are MANY people (those with REAL crimes in jail, [violence], people who do not care for a job, I do not need to keep repeating) who do not contribute to society and are in their middle ages.

You must be crazy to actually think I want all of those people to be rounded up and killed, even though I made a "mention" of it in my OP. But I am directing that to those who commit crimes...and those who abuse welfare should literally just be left to starve to death.

I am not talking about those who hit a rough patch in the road. Or poor people, because there are many people in poverty who still hold a job, have kids in school, whatever. I respect those.

Ghaleon, I am not religious and feel that it has done its course (in a good way)...I find myself more spiritual than anything, meaning I hold certain morales.

I also find it odd that I am being taunted for being in high school. Ravenshadow said it all for me and I will not bother wasting my time anymore replying to posts regarding that. It would be amazing how much different your posts would be if I never mentioned that.

There is also an idea afloat that hating on the poor is my provocative...which it is not. The only thing I said is that the general group in which I am talking about is in the poverty stricken group. So the whole argument that "KILLING THE POOR" is not my impression in which I want to leave onto all of you.

Once again, I will put it in laments terms.

Why are people who give NO HOOTS about anything still valued by you?

Regarding the bad gene pool statement - one quote for you. Survival of the fittest.

To put things in a better perspective, I will use this as an example.
Why shouldn't we just kill all of those on death row (who have no doubt committed the crimes)? Just WHAT are they doing for us anymore?

I get the notion that some of you do not even bother reading everything I am typing, and that you are coming here to question me rather than express your own ideas.

Example:"Anubis: Get out and get a job"...I have one. Mindless insults are not needed here, so either contribute with something constructive rather than giving false critique, or leave the thread.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:57 PM
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reply to post by FritosBBQTwist
 


"My current contributions?

Have a job.
Go to school for its purpose...not to find the parties for the weekend.
Don't disrespect anyone like most people.
Will get further education and a good job. "

Actually that is about what 90% of people our age do. I don't party at all. I go to school and OWN school. You want a good job?

Do you mean one that pays well? Because mine sure won't.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by mystiq
Since you have lived in an ivory tower all your life, your functional values are very nice. Would that all those you are judging be from such a world as well, though many are not.
It takes a great deal of trauma to break many people, to destroy their self esteem so that only bullying, top dogging or hurting another gives them any feeling of control over their lives. This is all psychosis and it is deliberately put upon billions of people who are not so fortunate. And I don't believe any of these people are worthy of your disrespect. Though you may need to protect yourself from them, their presence should make you very aware that the leaders and the cartel and the system that delights in turning them out so they can have complete mastery over the human race, but keeps a small number safe like you to feel good, and continue to vote them in, needs to be changed ASAP. Before you play the numbers game, please go and look at all the little newborns in the hospital. Then go "one,t wo, three, four...you're out!"

Me, I'm for healing the human race, and throwing the cartel off this planet.

I don't believe in discarding or in abandoning those less fortunate than us, but I believe that we need to build them up but here is the key:

At the same time, we need to work to eliminate the external forces that have generated these negative situations on these people. These people that we talk about, the dangerous, the down and out, come out of the womb the same as anyone else, the same as the most successful or loving or great person you know. Something somewhere in their life, whether in the beginning or later on spun their path so that they ended up where they are today. But in truth, it was something on the outside, some selfish determination of another person that influenced these people. Getting to the root and getting rid of it is key.

No, we cannot look down on these people, or even suggest doing away with them. They need help, but at the same time, get to the root of the problem that assisted in them ending up they way they are.





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