Why host Fictional stories on ATS, instead of BTS?

reply to post by Terapin

Originally posted by Terapin
Loam, you are an interesting sort. You stated quite clearly right away, that you don't care where CW is placed, yet you keep coming back to attack my posts.

Why is it your posts express opinions and my responses constitute attacks?

Originally posted by Terapin
I changed the title in hopes people would discuss the topic, and not simply bash the post as you seem to keep doing.

While you are congratulating yourself on your word choices, let me remind you that you only felt compelled to change this thread's title when the plain meaning of the words you originally selected were completely unsupportable.

Originally posted by Terapin
Some oppose the idea without discussing it.

Frankly, it's a bit like discussing flavors of ice cream. You either like vanilla or you don't.

Originally posted by Terapin
One poster did not wish to make the single additional click to get to BTS

You mean like another poster who simply can't ignore the threads he doesn't have an interest in?

I see your point completely.



[edit on 29-3-2009 by loam]

Originally posted by Whisper67
in the realm of Poetry, there are some excellent poems related to conspiracy, news, science, spirituality..all of the main forums in ATS are represented. Why take something so relavent out of ATS when it's simply a manner in which the theories are expressed in an alternate word form. Not a paragraph on a subject but a stanza.

I'll just repeat myself here as this wasn't responded to by the OP.

reply to post by loam


Loam, why wont you discuss the idea. Please explain why Member created Fiction, should be separated from Literature, and Member created Art for example? What is your theory for why this is a good idea.

reply to post by Whisper67


There is some great member art related to UFOs and Aliens etc.

I have nothing against creative writings or any form of artwork. I simply wonder why people are so against the idea of placing ALL artwork in the same area.

There is a big difference between discussion a possible UFO sighting, and creating a fictional story that involves UFO's. ATS is a conspiracy driven site while BTS is established for more creative endeavors.

I can see that this is something that no one wishes to discuss in any sincerity as no one seems willing to post their theory on why writing should be separated from other forms of creative artwork that is found on BTS.

reply to post by Terapin

Originally posted by Terapin
Loam, why wont you discuss the idea. Please explain why Member created Fiction, should be separated from Literature, and Member created Art for example? What is your theory for why this is a good idea.

1. I fail to understand what problem your 'solution' is designed to solve.
   
   
2. The owners created it this way, so if they are inclined to agree with you, I'm sure they will accordingly change it.
   
   
3. I absolutely love vanilla ice cream.
   

Satisfied?

Terapin...I think you're right. Fiction is BTS-ish. Obviously. The reason I would probably keep it in ATS anyway is so that creativity expressed by ATS-Members has the chance to gain a wider audience. So, if I were the maker of this site I would probably not have this on my urgent-to-do-list.

Originally posted by Terapin

Some oppose the idea without discussing it. One poster did not wish to make the single additional click to get to BTS, despite the fact that other member Art is held there.

If this is all you drew from my post I understand why this thread is now 6 pages long.

I admitted it was selfish but also had 4 other paragraphs of content you chose to ignore... as I am now going to choose to ignore this useless thread as your convictions of being correct are rampant and won't change. Good luck changing the means of communication over long distances!

Originally posted by Terapin
reply to post by Whisper67

 

There is a big difference between discussion a possible UFO sighting, and creating a fictional story that involves UFO's. ATS is a conspiracy driven site while BTS is established for more creative endeavors.

I can see that this is something that no one wishes to discuss in any sincerity as no one seems willing to post their theory on why writing should be separated from other forms of creative artwork that is found on BTS.

Wow, I thought I had been, albeit briefly, discussing this with sincerity and without malice, just giving my theory.

Again, especially with poetry a lot of conspiracy theories are presented and discussed. I really don't see how this is any different then started a thread on ATS about possilbe dabblings of the NWO, PTB in our lives such as flouride, economy etc. You'll see these very ideas brought up in the poetry section...again, the only difference being a different arrangment of words.

As far as the collaborative writing goes, I know for myself I'm slowly weaving in typical conspiracy ideals into my story and have seen these suggestions within other writers posts as well.

Whether you agree with it's location or not, I hope you enjoyed what you did read and thanks for taking the time to do so.

reply to post by Terapin

Originally posted by Terapin
ATS is a conspiracy driven site while BTS is established for more creative endeavors.

Perhaps, therein lies the confusion. You obviously believe ATS must be exclusively driven by conspiracy subject matter.

I went to the main page to take a look... Here is what I found:






I counted 62 public forums. (Give or take a couple.) I also counted 43 of them I would be hard pressed to call "conspiracy driven".

Am I wrong here?

Is it your position they should all be moved?

[edit on 29-3-2009 by loam]

reply to post by loam


I don't think... Well. Okay.
For most of those topics you can cite an article or another source and back up a thesis with evidence.

You just can't do that for Fiction. That's part of it's nature. I think the stories are great and build off the truth, but they don't provide the truth. I mean, they can, but say you found out some important information you would post it with evidence in another board. Not the Fiction board. That's just how I see it.

I'm a writer, too, but I don't submit my work on ATS because I don't think it is relevant.

reply to post by ravenshadow13

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
I'm a writer, too, but I don't submit my work on ATS because I don't think it is relevant.

That brings up another interesting point. I am decidedly NOT a "writer".

I actually don't see myself that way.

I'm not a gardener either, but I occasionally like to water the lawn.

Just clearing up any confusion some might have about how I see myself on this subject.

Like I said earlier, the problem with this discussion is that it's kind of like discussing flavors of ice cream.

My $0.02.

[edit on 29-3-2009 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by ravenshadow13

 

I'm not a gardener either, but I occasionally like to water the lawn.

Well actually that just makes you a lazy gardener, but a gardener none the less.

Plus you're a "fragile earth" fsme, whatever that is , so you must do your watering well.

reply to post by Scurvy


You had three points regarding the subject .A, B, C as you termed them. 'A' was asking why I mentioned the subject. It is pretty clear that I thought alike content should be grouped together. 'B' was your stating that you liked it where it was simply because you didn't wish to make one simple click to get over to BTS. You even admitted it was simply a selfish reason on your part. 'C' was about how fiction is just like the rest of the content in some ways. For example they both can deal with Aliens or secret societies etc. But there is a substantial difference between the two.

Here is an example of my point. One can write a fictional story about a boy growing up in the occupied territories, the difficulty his mother has getting clean water, and the lack of food, and end the story with the boy being burned alive by white phosphorus. Tragic indeed. On the other hand, one can have a deep discussion on the history of Israel, the ongoing political difficulties and various international agendas all with the realm of facts as they are known and various peoples opinions on them. The difference is that one thread is a work of fiction created by imagination that you are simply required to accept on face value, and the other thread is an attempt to understand the realities of the world we live in through a close preponderance of the evidence at hand and a discussion full of questions.

Fiction has it's place but it is not the same thing as discussions of reality. There is no Denial of Ignorance when it comes to creating Fiction as one can make the story turn in any direction desired. Fiction even deliberately invokes the "Suspension of Disbelief" as a method of moving the story forward. We do not question the physics of light saber in a story, we simply enjoy the battle. When one seeks to uncover the truth about the world we live in, one must attempt to exclude any fictions and to seek out fact. We must never suspend our disbelief, but rather must ask the hard questions to get to the truth.

I agree, there is a good deal of wild speculation that goes on in some threads on ATS. The ancient cities on Mars some choose to discuss comes to mind. While reading 'John Carter of Mars' is exciting, it is not the same as a discussion on the evidence we have for understanding the environment on Mars. In Fiction you can talk about the four armed green men of Mars, in fact, you would have to offer evidence that there is a biosphere to support such a being. Fiction requires neither facts nor debate.

If people feel that Fiction is perfect for ATS, and creative endeavors also belong on a site labeled "THE MOST POPULAR WEBSITE FOR ALTERNATIVE TOPICS", then why separate Member Art from Member fiction? Why create Below Top Secret, for topics that are not always about facts? Why not lump them all together?

I simply pointed out that BTS was created for this purpose and expressed my opinion that Collaborative writing would fit in better on BTS simply due to the official promoted purpose of ATS. Creative Fictional stories certainly fit in with Art and Entertainment, and that is a major sub group on BTS. There is no Art and Entertainment sub group on ATS so CW gets lumped in with "General and Shared Topic Discussion forums." Collaborative Writing is not discussion by definition, so it's placement there is somewhat erroneous.

AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, terrorism, and dozens of related topics with an impressive demographic mix of members.

The site promotes "productive debate and collaborative discussion." Fiction is neither debate, nor discussion. It is invention and creation. In the ongoing saga of the Voyage of the Penelope and the Yydryl, there is no discussion. No one goes. "Hey I liked your post but perhaps you could have made the captain taller and with a beard." People simply add to the story as they see fit, using their own unique creativity and without discussing their ideas within the thread.

Fiction is still good, and has an important place in society, but BTS was created for a purpose. It has a subgroup specifically for Art and Entertainment, that includes Literature.

Have you ever gone to the Grey area and felt like you were reading fiction?
Have you ever gone to the UFO/Alien forum and felt like what you were reading was simply unbelievable?
Have you ever visited any of the forums and had to discern what you read as being implausible?
Have you ever discovered a contest simply by browsing ATS, even though it could have under your theory been more suited for BTS?

I sincerely hope that this thread has not caused you an ounce of grief, that you somehow feel empowered by it.

Your question may have been a valid one, yet you continued to use members comments to your advantage and placed spin on so many quotes from others.

I enjoy finding contests from the ATS board, I would have missed so many great short stories and poems had they been on BTS.

Admittedly, some of the short story contests I have discovered at the last moment. I would missed them had they been on BTS.

I also love BTS, and it is not less than Above it is even deeper and more personal. BTS is where I go when I need a personal level. When I need some love or to rant.

ATS is where I come to learn and grow, and when I first came here I was an even worse writer than I am now, but the members have been teaching me and I have come along way.

I just want you to know I have no hard feelings, and know that you and many others have a right to your opinions, but let the writers make this decision as it is about where we choose to be.

reply to post by antar


Indeed I have seen threads on ATS that while purportedly about serious topics, seem more like wild fiction. That is simply the nature of the beast when one is dealing with the alternative topics found on ATS. Just because someone wishes to discuss the faeries they saw in their backyard, does not mean that others cant open the door to investigation and to examine the evidence to draw their own conclusions.

I see contests as a different matter. They are obviously apart from regular discussion and designed to add a bit of fun and challenge to the site. They are not truly about discussion and anyone can participate and win exciting prizes. It is a means to award points but does not drive much content. Many websites have contests for a variety of reasons, as a reward for their members.

While it is understood that writers may wish to choose to remain separated from the other creative member content found on BTS, one should point out that Collaborative Writing is an exclusive club that regular members are not allowed to actively participate in. That can not be said about the regular discussion forums. CW denies access to discussion and query. It is entertainment rather than discussion. For those allowed to participate, it also is an outlet for creative concepts, but they do not have to be based on anything concrete or related to ATS topics in any way. The number of views is low, perhaps due to the fact that it is such a separate concept from the general discussion boards, and because of the very fact that it is exclusive rather than inclusive. If it was placed WITH the other member generated creative material, it might attract more visitors. Or it might not. But in any case, it would do no harm to put all member artwork together, and writing is indeed an art form.

I mentioned how it might be a great idea to get CW and Member Art together so that the artistic members of BTS could perhaps illustrate the stories being created in CW. Some, including a Mod in the writing forum, thought this was a wonderful idea. Yet it seems CW writers still wish to isolate themselves from Member Art.

It seems as though in general, those who have spoken against moving CW to the Arts and Entertainment forums are the Writers, while the main board members seem to be for the idea. Loam is an exception as he is a writer who stated that he doesn't care one way or the other. I do not wish to create an Us vs. Them concept as it is counter productive. I was simply seeking discussion on the merits of artists working, and residing, together in a space that was specifically set up for them. I am reminded of the thread created by the Writer Mr Wupy in the CW forum overview, where he asks about CW "Do we have a goal? Do we have a reason for being? Is there an objective to our existence?" There was a short discussion about generating interest and what collaborative writing means, and it's goals, or lack of, but the discussion died out rather quickly. Perhaps moving CW into the Arts and Entertainment Forums might provide valuable input from fellow artists that would revitalize both activities, and create some new and interesting works of collaborative art. A member Illustrated collaborative story would be a great thing to see indeed. Embrace the Arts and Entertainment Forum and discover all the wonderful things that can grow out of a truly collaborative effort.

Some simple Stats to consider:

ATS - Post to Thread Ratio 14:1
BTS - Posts to Thread Ratio 12:1 (almost the same as ATS)
Collaborative Writing - Post to Thread ratio 12:1 (exact same as BTS, Interesting)
Member Art - Post to Thread Ratio 31:1

Seems like those Member Artists are on to something there. That is a higher number than Aliens and UFO's, Secret Societies, or even the NWO generates.

reply to post by Terrapin


In the latest Collaborative effort a few of the contributors did not even have writers status until they joined the story and created their own characters. You 'seem' to be flowering the issue with a whole bunch of verbiage and speaking for others to suit your agenda.

Would you like to join us? You can if you wish and then perhaps you would understand just how exciting and rewarding working with your fellow ATS members can be. It is very challenging and I have the deepest respect for the artists that can manage their threads and continue to add quality posts to the collaboration.

It's simple...

ATS is more than just a forum for Alternative Topics, it' also a COMMUNITY of people who enjoy discussing the myriad topics explored here.

The bottom line is ATS is really a collection of sites, each forum is a site in its own right. I believe it's a mistake to think that since the writing forums are on the ATS Domain they have anything to do with or in any way "diminish" the value or credibility of the other forums. They simply don't.

It's all part of a bigger picture, an honest and ethical media site/company (The Above Network, LLC) that caters to those who make it what it is... The Membership.

Our Membership asked for an outlet, on the main domain (the traffic is almost 1000% more on ATS vs BTS, >1,500,000 unique IPs a month versus a few thousand on BTS) for their creative side long ago...

We obliged and I wouldn't change a thing.

Seeing as how ATS gets quoted/sourced by most of the "big guns" in the MSM (New York Times, WIRED Magazine, San Francisco Chronicle, CNN, etc...) almost weekly it's obviously not an issue for the credibility of the site either.

I do appreciate the concern though and I understand how it could appear as though it may be a problem if one doesn't understand the nature of the site as a whole.

Springer...

reply to post by Springer


Thank you for your response on why Collaborative Writing is placed in "General and Shared Discussion Forums" instead of "Arts and Entertainment"

Makes perfect sense when put in the context of "some members wanted it."

I never stated that Art diminished the credibility of ATS in any way. You missed my point.

If Richard Farley had created his Obama 'HOPE' artwork on ATS it would have been isolated from the general community by placing it in BTS, despite the fact that the MSM and public at large has discussed his poster a great deal and it has had a significant social impact. If someone wishes to create a fictional tale about goblins, and have it read by a very small fraction of board members, it gets pigeonholed into General Discussion Forums, despite there being no discussion involved, and is placed in an exclusive area on ATS. Seems that some art has more value, and gets special status, while other art is considered unworthy of participation within the community, despite their common ground.

No matter. You make the decisions, thus this is the way it shall be. You might wish to create a sub group in the Collaborative writing forums for discussion of member illustrations for the creative fiction stories. Art belongs together as it fosters creativity.

-Peace

[edit on 30/3/09 by Terapin]

reply to post by antar


Antar, I have never suggested that the work being created by members within Collaborative Writing has no value and should be terminated. To the contrary, I have always believed that it should be included within the greater art community on BTS. I feel that both parties would benefit by association.

I have indeed read a fair amount of the Penelopy tales, and in truth make my living as an artist of sorts. My work can be found across the country from Hawaii to our nations capitol in the Smithsonian Institution. I well understand that Art is important to society as it reflects on the human experience. I simply had wished to see CW placed in the proper context, alongside the other creative outputs of board members. You will note that the majority of non participants in CW who expressed their opinions here, felt that it was out of place. A few Mods also indicated that the idea had merit.

It is clear however, that the powers that be do not feel the same way, and so be it. Artists on ATS are destined to be segregated from each other, and thus marginalized. Creative writing has been on ATS for many years now and until this thread, no one has ever discussed the idea of including member art for illustrations. That is what happens when Artists are segregated from each other. Tunnel vision.

The arts are a powerful vehicle for communication, a way to express visions that are beyond the capacity of words and a medium for cultural enlightenment. Knowledge of the arts is an indispensable foundation for enlightened citizenship in our increasingly complicated world.

The responses of artists to the events of 9/11 are just one reminder of the essential role that the arts play in exploring the emotional dimensions of experience, in shaping the way people talk about critical issues and in formulating visions of the future, both for artists and their audiences.

[edit on 30/3/09 by Terapin]

[edit on 30/3/09 by Terapin]