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Spanish Court Weighs Inquiry on Torture for 6 Bush-Era Officials

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posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
I think Bush should be tried by Americans in America. He should be subject to all the rules and regulations he ignored while in office. I cannot wait to see him behind bars, but if it isn't an American trial then it cannot be recognized as legitimate by our own laws and our Constitution.


Heres the problem I see, its not just Bush and Co. who have used the constitution as toilet paper... Obamas doing it, Congress is, and has in the past, done it... Lets not just focus on a former unpopular president...lets not stop there, lets hold EVERYONE accountable!




posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 06:22 AM
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Originally posted by Fox News
reply to post by questioningall
 


terrorists are not subject to international law, the geneva convention does not apply to them...


But would you be happy with that if it were US citizens being held as terrorists and therefore not subject to international law?

Any Tom, Dick or Harry can be accused of being a terrorist, in any country - including US citizens. If Iran was holding US citizens as terrorists and was accused of torturing them would you be happy to still say that international law doesn't apply.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 06:37 AM
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reply to post by nine-eyed-eel
 


"These persons crying out against Bush et al (would they be better off under a jihadist/Islamist umma - I think not),..."

Sure, like those are the ONLY 2 choices we have. Yours has to be the most pathological post I've ever seen on this site, and that's a very heavy duty standard... Yes, we need to be honest enough about the darker side of ourselves, but there's no real reason to believe anything resembling the pathology level of this paradigm is necessary.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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This is a good start, but as many have said, I hope it doesn't end there. These "advisers" do not hold all the responsibility for what went down. The guys above them who took and carried out the advice (and who had probably been very specific about what they were looking for beforehand) hold as much if not more responsibility.
I won't be satisfied until Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld et al are un-pardoned, and then move on to the complicit members of congress and business.

Leave no stone unturned in searching out every inch of the rot; even to the cellars of the Rockefellers. Why not?



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by questioningall
 


So my next question.... how many other countries are going to join in the indictments against the Bush adminstration, also a following question....... will George W. Bush and Dick Cheney's names ever be on any?

Kissinger's been an 'indicted war criminal' for decades now ...

Has that made any difference ? Well, there's a few countries he makes sure not to visit, but that's about it ...



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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terrorists are not subject to international law, the geneva convention does not apply to them...


You assume that every single individual sent to torture camps were actually guilty of being a terrorist. Sadly some of these suspects were innocent men. Take the case of Chinese Muslims who were traveling the silk road through Afghanistan and were turned in by the local population for the reward money. The locals would turn in anyone for that money, and travelers were fair game. Not all the suspects in Guantanamo or other torture camps were terrorists, but were tortured all the same.




I'm still waiting for someone who was tortured to show up and put his scars and disfigurements up as evidence. So far all I have heard was they was tortured.


How about the ones who are DEAD? Water boarding doesn't leave a mark, it just kills you when taken to the extreme. How many suspects died during questioning?

Report: 108 Died In U.S. Custody

Documents Shed Light on Abu Ghraib Death

The Death of an Iraqi Prisoner

White House Watch: Call it torture



Torture is useless. A suspect will admit anything, even fabricate admissions. The CIA has admitted this (scan down to find article):

According to former CIA interrogators and intelligence officials, torture has produced little actionable intelligence.

"...according to a former senior C.I.A. official, who read all the interrogation reports on (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed), ‘90 percent of it was total #ing bull#.'"




Who should be held responsible for US torture violations?

John Yoo - Alberto Gonzales Torture Memo

From Washingtonpost.com

In December 2007, FBI agent John Kiriakou, who participated in Zubaydah's capture and early questioning, told ABC News that every decision leading to the torture of CIA detainees was documented and approved in cables to and from Washington.




What it comes down to - now that the US has sanctioned (by our actions) the use of torture in violation of international law then we have put our own citizens and soldiers at risk of torture as well. We opened a can of worms with this one. Should Spain capture an American suspected of a crime they would be justified in torturing said American. After all its an eye for an eye.

If American intelligence is now using torture abroad how long before they bring these tactics to the mainland? Perhaps the FBI or CIA doesn't like your collection of assault rifles, so lets torture you and see where your loyalties lie. Maybe your part of some home-brewed terrorism plot to protest taxes? Let's torture and find out.

There's a reason torture was banned under international law by the Geneva Convention, but Bush and Cheney found it more expedient to ignore it.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by projectvxn
I think Bush should be tried by Americans in America. He should be subject to all the rules and regulations he ignored while in office. I cannot wait to see him behind bars, but if it isn't an American trial then it cannot be recognized as legitimate by our own laws and our Constitution.


Not to derail the thread, but ...*Cough...Gary McKinnon...*Cough
C'mon now, you cant have it both ways. If they are able to extradite him for crimes committed etc...then ANYONE else should be fair game in the world court eh


..Ex



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 


Well, wouldn't prosecuting a former president for war crimes set an example to be followed, not just in the current administration (as you are so certain is the case) but also in future ones? No one is above the law...right? Why are people so quick to say that we need to "move on" and forget about prosecuting Bush.

I wonder how a rape victim would respond if she found out that the police had to move on because her attacker has not been prosecuted after 7 or so years and there is a new person who 'possibly' could, maybe very well be potentially worse?????

Logic???



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


You know, I watch FOX news from time to time when I need a little levity, and it always spirals down into "depressing" mode.

Today they were talking about the Wigurs, from Xin Jiang (Sp?) province and how they had trained with Al-qaeda...

I've known the Wigurs existed for a while now and I've also known that China oppresses them as it does Tibet (they just lack the Dalai Lama to be a PR person for them). My issue is that the anchor on Fox, some nerdy-looking fellow, was adamant about these 'terrorists' (again, assuming ALL of them did wrong, which is, in effect, the reasoning for why Guantanamo has to be closed - the fact that not nearly ALL of them are bad people) being allowed into the US and given "welfare".

Please...he continued that they should be sent back to China...ok, so someone who likely did nothing, except for perhaps disagree with his country on it's human rights abuses, will not be sent back by the US to meet his end at a People's Firing Squad...

I don't get it, someone clarify for me...

Are we aligned with China or are we against their political and economic doctrines...

It appears FOX would like to have it's cake and eat it too...rah-rah for the free-capitalist society, boo-hoo on civil rights....WHAT?????

Why are they still in business?????????? Can anyone answer that question? Why do they have any credibility whatsoever? I don't get it? Am I on something? ...or are they? ...is it the fluoride???



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 01:36 PM
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I say we charge Baltasar Garzon with stupidity. Al-Qaida attacks our country...we strike back...and this idiot wants to charge some of our government officials for defending our homes The Spanish inquisition is back to protect muslim terrorists. Spain is already run over by muslims so what can we expect.



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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inquisition back to defend muslim terrorists? not quite, this wold be about each mans accountabillity for his own actions, and in this case yes we do need other countries to support our people in bringing dubya to stand accountable for his actions.

that being said, i truly did not see this coming.

but then again you never do.....

nobody expects the spanish inquisition!

thats right...

they have the element of surprise!



posted on Mar, 29 2009 @ 07:18 PM
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I told you all many years ago this issue wasnt over and why the issues regarding torture and other things are public there's alot more information that hasnt been disclosed that bush and clinton did under there administrations. Why this government spacificly the FBI and DOJ have there own fights going on with lawsuits that are not public theres more going on here then any one really knows.

I know of 2 law suits bush and others will not get out of that havent been publicy disclosed and wont be there under seal and there isnt even a jury pool for either one of them yet.

I remember in 2006 when people tryed to sue the CIA and NSA for things and there suits didnt go very far thats because they didnt go about it the right way if I had done the filings both would already be in court. I do know there's a effort on behalf of the geneva conventions and those tied to it that have warcrimes charges filed against bush and others that have yet to be carried out.

The last time I checked the U.S. Marshals office in the United States was contacted and flat out told do your jobs as Federal Employee's and place these people under arrest. Why it hasnt been done yet that doesnt mean it wont be.

I dont know all the end fighting thats been going on in the last 2 years as ive stayed out of it as much as I could but theres no way given whats been done that someone or some group isnt going to take matters into there own hands with or without following the law.

Bush had 4 or 5 assigination attempts on his life why he was in office only 2 that were made public the reason why the Secret Service didnt make the other ones public apprently because they came pretty close in 2006 and 2005.

Even rumsfeld has a price on his head for 100 million dollars I know people that had serious thoughts about collecting on that money when it was first put out. That being put aside beside geneva and the swiss I know that several states have threated bush why he was still in office if you attempt to place this country under marshal law we will succeed as a state.

I have nearly finalized my bill to succeed. When its finished it will be placed here along with a detailed explaination of how to take it to your state representatives to succeed in the event of a attempt of forced servitued under military occupation or any other time. Its now 25 pages and written like any other law you see passed or being preposed to be passed in the house of representatives.

Not to get off subject the fact is no matter what bush and clinton supports choose to admit or deny your presidents before both of these men and this current one are breaking the law and I know for a fact the intelligence agencies arent putting up with it anymore.

I wouldnt be surpised if I woke up one morning and a whole agency just up and decided to ignore any orders from this adminstration for its continued un ethical conduct as far as covering up crimes of the past adminstration.

And to be realistic about it theres the high likely hood that a whole agency if not many of them just tell this government drop dead. Congress couldnt even pay the security to keep the public at bay in the 2006 primary elections nor could either party and no money was paid for the security back then.

Its 2009 not 2006 I know the democrats were given one mandate get the united states out of iraq. Its been 3 years and no one in washington in the elected has done anything accept for spend money. Why I dont know the full details of the intelligence war thats been going on in the last few years I can see evidence of it poping up all over the place its starting to spill over on the streets just like I said it would.

Im not congress and im not elected I drafted my current bill in less then 2 weeks and its more litterate and easy to understand then any bill ive seen in 20 years next to a few bills passed or preposed by ron paul and others.

They cant keep the people at bay forever I know the legal system and provided there isnt another attack in this country or around the world I need 120 days for my bill plan to work. Congress has had 3 years sense 2006 they have millions of dollars to higher typiest that can type faster and spell better then I can and they pass bills every day without reading them.

Sooner rather then later there illegal conducts going to bite them in the @$$.

Thats my 2 cents for now.

Falcon.



posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 01:26 PM
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my.auburnjournal.com...


The imminent indictment in Spanish courts of former officials of the Bush Administration is being applauded by civil and human rights organizations and legal scholars. The popular wave of support for indictment of Bush officials will inevitably lead to Bush himself.


The rule of law, justice, and basic integrity require the indictment for criminal wrongdoing of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales and other high officials of the former Bush Administration.


For more on the Spanish courts war crimes case against former U.S. officials:


* Marlise Simons "Spanish court weights inquiry on torture for 6 Bush-era officials". The New York Times, March 28, 2009

* Paul Haven "Spanish court considers trying former US officials". Associated Pub, March 28, 2009

* Julian Borger and Dale Fuchs "Spanish judge accuses six top Bush officials of torture". The Guardian, March 29, 2009

* Sebastian Rotella "Spanish judge considers trying U.S. officials over Guantanamo". Los Angeles Times, March 29, 2009


I will be watching as will the world, I bet, to see if one thing will lead to another 2 people (Bush, Cheney).



posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 



Those that legally cease to exist cannot have any legal basis for making charges of any nature, even torture.


How exactly does one "cease to exist" simply by disregarding military uniform?

CIA Agents and Delta Force commonly disguise themselves as anything from goat-herders to journalists while in cover operations involving lethal action, do they also "cease to exist" and are to be summarily executed by the enemy if captured?

Didn't think so.


Torture? No. There was no torture at Guantanamo. There may have been some enthusiastic persuasion, but no one is crippled, marked, nor disfigured.


The old "It's not fat, it's well-rounded" argument.


Normally in court, you must prove wrongdoing.


Then why have we only charged less than 200 of the 900 detainees at Guantanamo after 8 years in detention?

It took less time to convict all the Nazis at Nuremberg.

Most of the men in secret detention facilities WERE NOT CAPTURED BY THE US.
They were handed over by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and Iraqi Police & National Army in Iraq.

The US paid enormous bounties to anyone who turned in "terrorists", upwards of $50,000 dollars.

According to Time, activities leading toward release of the 140 [Guantanamo] prisoners have accelerated since the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case. It said U.S. officials had concluded some detainees were kidnapped for reward money offered for al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. (our emphasis)



A former CIA intelligence officer who helped lead the search for Osama bin Laden told AP the accounts sounded legitimate because U.S. allies regularly got money to help catch Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Gary Schroen said he took a suitcase of $3 million in cash into Afghanistan himself to help supply and win over warlords to fight for U.S. Special Forces.

www.talkleft.com...

In countries where most people live on less than $5 dollars a day and petty blood feuds reign supreme, that's a very tempting offer to turn in a Shi'ite cleric, or a rival tribesmen or someone who owns a large opium crop; to kill two birds with one stone.

The majority of the men held at Extraordinary Rendition sites around the world like Bagram or Guantanamo are nothing more than mere peasants, low-level foot soldiers or just people who were made into scapegoats.



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