The Selfishness of Selflessness, page 3


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reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 01:41 PM by Wertdagf
reply to post by Welfhard


Everything is selfish and everything is selfless. Those who fail are proof of a better choice, or of a greater understanding. We use their mistakes to fortify ourselves. They are the soilder who jumped on the grenade for his squad.

How many hitlers does an evolving soceity need to see before it expands beyond it? How many killers or rapists? I think there is a number for all societys.


reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 01:44 PM by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Wertdagf


I dont disagree with the definition Wertdagf, I was simply responding to the way both the Op's examples and the Christian comment I quoted were using the word.

Even the example the OP uses of selflessness meaning "sacrifice for the next generation" is not considered, "selfless" by those who study evolutionary behaviors. They would say it is still the act of the "selfish gene" ensuring that the genes will survive in the future, because the survival of the individual is a foregone conclusion. It wont.

I too am fascinated by altruism and selfishness, and have done a lot of thinking on it. I am not sure we can do anything that is not selfish in the sense of us deriving some form of benefit. Even the hermit I mentioned might just be trying to get the person in need back out of his area. Or not wanting them to die there and stink up the place. Perhaps not only would that hermit have to be annoyed by the act, and expect no God to reward him/her, but they would also have to act knowing that saving the other would kill them and they left no children, and were completely unrelated to the person being saved.

So, I dont disagree that it is more selfish to act as the wiki link suggests, your own good at the expense of others. But as outlined in the OP, I wonder if much of anything we could ever do would have absolutely no benefit to us.


reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 01:46 PM by Wertdagf
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


yeah i thought abou tit more and came to a better understanding which i posted while you were responding. thats why i removed it.



reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 02:14 PM by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Welfhard


Yeah, it is a difficult subject to really pin down because of all the levels of selfishness that are possible.

You, your genes, your group, your soul, etc.

It is still a cool discussion. I doubt we will arrive at any final conclusion, this debate has been raging for thousands of years that we know of, but it is still enjoyable reading and debating it.

Science is bringing us some fascinating information on morality, including selfishness and altruism.

One aspect of it I find most interesting in evolutionary terms are computer generated models of evolution that seem to show that pure altruism cannot survive. In an altruistic system, it is inevitable in evolutionary terms, that "cheaters" will arise, and attempt to benefit from altruism without being altruistic themselves. Once this occurs, if the more truly altruistic do not discriminate themselves against the cheaters, the cheaters will overrun to extinction the pure altruists every single time.

Cancer in the body is an example of the immune system failing to recognize and discriminate against "cheaters" who have arisen in a basically altruistic group. And we know how that ends if some form of discrimination is not introduced.


reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 02:25 PM by Wertdagf
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Sometimes you need to suffer to grow. Sometimes empathy will call for you to hurt somone or allow them to suffer. Empathy is cancer resistant....


reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 07:39 PM by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by John Matrix


What just happened there?



I agree. And to Questioningall, I agree with you too. I am admittedly selfish on many levels. But I also tend to derive more pleasure from selfless selfishness than selfish selfishness.

I also feel good when I do things for others. Most of the time. But I do also do things for others when it doesnt feel so good too. I have an 82 year old neighbor who often will call me to come up and help with this that or the other, and even on the days I would rather be doing something else, I go.

And sometimes I also feel that helping someone is the wrong thing to do, (if they are too dependent but capable of helping themselves,) and in those cases I think the highest good is served NOT helping them, even if it pisses them off and I have to hear what a jerk I am.

Selflessness is not a clear cut thing, it is a very complex dance of weighing your own highest best interests against the highest best interests of others.

I tend to think it is not just selflessness that matters, but very discriminate selflessness. You have to sort of use your intuition to guide you in the right times to give and the right times to refuse.


reply posted on 28-3-2009 @ 08:02 PM by TruthParadox
reply to post by Welfhard


I've thought of this before, though I never thought it would be brought up on ATS...
You're right, every action is selfish - it has to be.

If you sacrifice your life for your son, you're only doing it because it's your son.
If you sacrifice your life for someone else's son, you're only doing it because you want to be the guy that sacrificed his life for someone else's son.
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