Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Any thoughts on this? Obviously as a Christian I don't support this, but maybe some Atheists do? I'm curious...

I really wish you would stop assuming all atheists want to eliminate or get rid of religion. Frankly, I couldnt give two poo's about what you want to believe in....its not my business, ande I wouldnt push my beliefs on my kids, they can do or believe in what they want.

It just sounds so ignorant making assumptions

Nope not at all. I don't think all Atheists would want to do that, in fact most of the Atheists I know are fine by me.

I'm talking about a "few" ie; the author and his publisher maybe. That's all. Also, remember I didn't write this article, I'm just trying to make people aware of it, that's all.

Yes, it's a big stinkin' conspiracy.

It was not much different than the one perpetuated by CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein and their publishers who conspired to indoctrinate children into the shackles of christianity.

Arrest all those men, and if they are dead, we shall dig up their dead bodies and parade their skulls on sticks. How very dare they write provocative fiction. All fiction, films, and entertainment must only consolidate pre-existing beliefs.

Seriously, though, they are fantastic books. Not quite on the literary level of Tolkein, but in a higher league than the rather dull and pathetic Narnia series. The film was a diluted mess, though.

But I'm not surprised to see you huff and puff when you haven't even read the books. There's an old thread on this, so, yet again, you're a bit late for indignation.

Actually I think the article says more about christian groups conspiring to control and sabotage free expression. You can't espouse freedom of religion and cry foul when others assert it.. the catholic league called for the films boycott yet are accusing the film makers of being the aggressors because the film might lead to children wanting to read the books? Why not try ban shops for selling the book instead? They tried it with harry potter as well. They consider any belief system as an attack on their own purely for existing.. I think the film makers are the victims here.


[edit on 28-3-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Actually I think the article says more about christian groups conspiring to control and sabotage free expression. You can't espouse freedom of religion and cry foul when others assert it.. the catholic league called for the films boycott yet are accusing the film makers of being the aggressors because the film might lead to children wanting to read the books? Why not try ban shops for selling the bok instead? They tried it with harry potter as well. They consider any belief system as an attack on their own purely for existing.. I think the film makers are the victims here.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by riley]

I don't agree with censorship of anything. By Christians or by Atheists.

That's my view on the subject.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
Where do you see me huffing or puffing?

Obvious agenda is obvious.

Did you read any of the posts I made in this thread? You must not of, because I've already stated I wouldn't stop my kids from seeing it, in fact they've already seen the first movie and thought it was good. I have no problem with it. The other movies will be out soon here in Canada, we haven't had the same issue here with censoring it.

I only made the thread to get peoples opinions of this.

lol. yeah.

The representation of the books in the OP is incorrect.

As I understand it, in the last book, a boy and girl are depicted representing Adam and Eve and they kill God

Is wrong. Just read the books, they won't melt your brain. They are predominately about dogmatism and totalitarianism in religion. I can tell you what Lyra and Will do, but it would ruin the story - it is very positive and altruisitic, and they do not kill the 'god' character.

Pullman is pretty clear that he would like to undermine Xianity. That's his perogative, and like any artist his work is informed by his worldview. But to misrepresent and denigrate his work to motivate censorship is typical of the dogmatic hordes. The books are works of fantasy.

As riley (who won the internets) noted, this is more a case of a conspiracy to censor and denigrate a fine work of art.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by melatonin]

I'd have to say that most atheists are not worried about killing G*D in anyones mind, let alone childrens.
Trying to kill G*D in the minds of people is not atheism, it is more about being anti towards christianity or other religions, so to be fair to atheist in general, I don't believe this behaviour by the author is a Fundamental hallmark of athiesm.

On the topic of the books, so what. This is not new. There are musicians, writers, poets, playwrites, journalists and scholars that weave similar sentiments towards religions, G*D and spirituality within their own work. This has had little impact on Christianity or the Concept of G*D IMHO.

Asking atheist how they feel about this book and the movies is no more relevant then asking them to comment on the anti-christian sentiment in these films, Carrie, Dogma, Footloose, Jesus Camp, Priest, Magdalene sisters, even Monty Python in the Meaning of Life.

Just because the Author wants to destroy some concepts, does not mean that everyone other atheist or non-believer does. Do all christians want to destroy atheism? I know some that do, but do you? I would guess that your answer would be no, B.A.C.
Someone expressing distaste, disagreement and opposition to any established belief or philosophy is entitled to that freedom and free to involve it in any expression they may be inspired to create, Like the Golden Compass, I don't think there is any conspiracy here, just a philosophical opposition. Philosophies are constantly interwoven into fictions and mythical tales by all cultures and this is not purely atheist in nature even though the philosophies contained within may be interpreted as such, claimed as or seem to be inspired by.

Originally posted by B.A.C.

Any thoughts on this? Obviously as a Christian I don't support this, but maybe some Atheists do? I'm curious...

I heard this and bought and read the trilogy.

Most unloveable set of characters I've ever read.

It's actually not that obvious a symbolic thing to kids ... and frankly, as an adult, I thought it didn't really make a good case for atheism or any other sort of theism. I'd rather read Narnia to the kids (although it gets heavy-handed), or Swiftly Tilting Planet (a more Pagan view).

There seems to be a trend in Young Adult lit today of Gritty Dismal Pseudo-realism, and this was... just more of the same.

IMHO. Your mileage may vary.

With religion you are brain washing your children and thinking irrationally. Without all of these gods, the world would be a better place. My parents were the victims of catholic run and government sponsored residential schools, 50% of those children who were forced to attend died at the school or shortly after returning home... My parents would come home to see their parents for 4 days and then be taken away again for another year at the age of 4 and 5 until they were 17. They were tortured, raped, experimented on, and purposefully infected with tuberculosis (then sent home to a place where no medical care was available). My dad tells me he saw his mom for 4 months in his life by the time he was 14 and then she passed away.. I think that religion is awful, used to control people. Live the one life that you have to its fullest, and don't let your children be brainwashed. Have you ever read The God Delusion? Some of you are probably to ignorant to question your faith.... Oh well. Whatever happened to denying ignorance???

[edit on 29-3-2009 by williell12]

[edit on 29-3-2009 by williell12]

[edit on 29-3-2009 by williell12]

Originally posted by Daniem
Stop blaming everybody and everything else, quit panicking about everything like you're overly paranoid. Christianity makes you constantly be on the defencive. Everything becomes a threat to you in your eyes. You are in a state of protection all the time.

When you people are in that state of defence, you cant grow as humans. You cant be in growth and protection at the same time. When you are in that state, the stress hormones in your body shut of the bloodwessels in your body where growth happens, and increases blood to your arms.. this means no growth, you can only fight.

But if you're in such a state of fear as a christian, then how can you expect to grow? Stop fighting and grow, for the sake of humanity.. for the sake of yourself. Maybe by removing christianity from your life you will be free from the fear you're always in.

Looks to me like you are the defensive one. Very sensitive to things regarding Christianity. Almost like you're in a state of fear. This means no growth, you can only fight. Stop fighting and grow, for the sake of humanity.. for the sake of yourself.

If there was a conspiracy, it wasn't very successful...I never watched the movie, and probably never will (unless it comes on TV sometime). Considering the huge ad campaign (and awareness only made greater by the groups trying to stop its release) before the movie came out, the way it all fizzled out slowly afterwards kinda shows how average the movie must have been.

Putting the reason for the bad reception (and the reduction in pay of the cast) on religious communities is very silly, and just seems like deflecting blame. From what I (just now) read, the movie was one of the costliest that New Line Cinema ever did, and due to some bad decisions, it was unable to recoup a lot of that cost. This explains the lack of pay, if not the bad reception. Considering it had a very significant ad campaign, as I see it, the bad reception can only be explained by a very average movie, made worse by everyone expecting another Lord of the Rings- which brings to point, I had read the Lord of the Rings books and the Chronicles of Narnia long before I had heard of the movie, but only heard of Phil Pullman after I heard of movie. So maybe it didn't have as great a back-up fanbase? The Harry Potter movies, which I didn't consider to be all that great had a huge fan-base from beforehand, so the bad movie didn't hurt sales all that much.

Comparing The Golden Compass to Narnia books seems a bit unfair, seeing as the Narnia Chronicles were aimed at children, while I don't think the Golden Compass was (was the movie?). Also, while I knew Tolkien was a devout christian, I had never noticed any pushing of religious thought in Tolkien's work (definitely nothing as blatant as C. S. Lewis). From what I understand, he even had to defend his fictional god from criticism. Definitely nothing that could be used to indoctrinate children (if they could get through the Lord of the Rings ) towards christianity. It didn't work for me (although to be fair, as a kid I didn't even notice it in the Chronicles of Narnia).

Originally posted by babloyi
I had never noticed any pushing of religious thought in Tolkien's work (definitely nothing as blatant as C. S. Lewis). From what I understand, he even had to defend his fictional god from criticism. Definitely nothing that could be used to indoctrinate children (if they could get through the Lord of the Rings ) towards christianity. It didn't work for me (although to be fair, as a kid I didn't even notice it in the Chronicles of Narnia).

The beauty of Tolkein is that his work is informed by his catholicism (he admitted that much), but it's not obvious. It's not rather pathetic and forced like Lewis. But that's the point, though. Most kids are quite able to separate fantasy and reality in stories - and even obvious allegory, like Lewis, is barely noted (unless adults play it up).

And the same can be said of Pullman. It's an 'atheist' book full of angels, witches, grace, and Milton, lol. The atheism is not explicit, a god does exist, he's just not what he seems. What is explicit is the evils of dogmatic and totalitarian religious authority. Just like Tolkein plays big on christian mercy (e.g., Gandalf and Gollum), sacrifice, and resistance to temptation/sin (Frodo).

And it's not some ethically questionable fluff book (even Tolkein borders on racism) with puppet-like characters playing out some forced allegory. Pullman has a new one coming about this fantasy world soon (yay).

Putting the reason for the bad reception (and the reduction in pay of the cast) on religious communities is very silly, and just seems like deflecting blame. From what I (just now) read, the movie was one of the costliest that New Line Cinema ever did, and due to some bad decisions, it was unable to recoup a lot of that cost.

It actually made money and was successful. Just not as much as they wanted. It was a poor film to me because it was diluted hollywood trash. The reason for the dilution was....go on guess, lol.

So it had to work against the people who liked the books but disliked the film adaptation and its sterilisation, and also the organised censorship of christian dogmatists.

(ABE: for any fantasy fiction fans out there, Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy is great, my boy loved them as well, lol - he wasn't big on Lyra et al.).

[edit on 29-3-2009 by melatonin]