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The Stout Horn & Antichrist

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posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 11:55 PM
I want to start this thread to get some feedback and opinions. I am not trying to start an "anti-*insert-religion-here*" thread, but these facts I've come across are too startling to keep to myself.

The point of this thread is just to give some consideration into the possiblity of identifying the first beast of Revelation and the 4th beast spoken of by Daniel, and explaining who the Antichrist is and the meaning of the 10 horns on the head of the beast. Keep in mind that prophecy in the Bible uses many symbols which stand for something else. One of the most important things to remember is a day in prophecy equals a year in actual time. This can be confirmed in the Bible, but to save time I won't go into detail unless someone needs confirmation. Here is a list of the main symbols used throughout the Bible in prophecy:

Day = Year
Beasts, Horns, Heads = Kings, Kingdoms, Nations
Wind = War, Strife
Water = Multitudes of people, Many nations
Wings = Speed, Swiftness in battle
Dragon = satan, the devil
Pure woman, Virgin = Christ's true church
Harlot = False church

Explaination of the fourth beast as seen by Daniel:
"...After this I saw in the night visions, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet: and it was different from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.” - Found in Daniel Chapter 7. Here, the fourth beast represents the Roman Empire. After the fall of the Roman Empire, it desentigrated into 10 nations which will be named later. Among these ten nations (horns) grew yet another "stout horn" which is the main power to be identified here.

Let me start out by giving all 14 characteristics of the "stout horn" atop the fourth beast of Daniel and the first beast of Revelation, 4 of which come from the book of Daniel alone, 6 from Revelation alone, and the other 4 being given by BOTH books.

1) Daniel 7:24 states that the "stout horn" power would arise after the Roman Empire (fourth beast) and after the emergence of the other ten horns, or nations, following the disintegration of the Roman empire.

2) This power is different from the other ten kingdoms (10 horns). Daniel 7:24 says, “He shall be different from the first.” We have a clue in verse twenty-five as to just how this power differed from the other kingdoms. This power made an attempt to change the law of God and the times of God. The Catholic Douay translation of the Bible in Daniel 7:25 says that “he shall think himself able to change times and laws.” This power has published the changed law and admits to changing a time of God, and nearly the entire Christian world follows the dictates of this power rather than the times and laws of God as found in the Bible. Since this power thought itself able to change God’s times and God’s laws, it must be a religious power. The other ten powers were political. That is the difference mentioned in verse twenty-four.

3) This power went to war with three of the ten kingdoms and defeated them. Daniel 7:24 says, “He shall subdue three kings.” The reason for this war was that the three defeated nations would not accept the religious doctrine of the stout horn; the other seven nations, under pressure, accepted its dictates. The three defeated nations were the Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals. Verse eight says they were plucked up by the roots. There is no trace of these nations today; they have been completely uprooted, as this prophecy foretold. The last of these three nations was defeated in 538 AD.

Thread continued....

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 11:59 PM
4) The power represented by the stout horn speaks blasphemous words against God. Daniel 7:25 says, “He shall speak great words against the most High.” The first beast of Revelation 13 also represents this stout horn power, as we will see shortly. Revelation 13:5 says “And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.” What is blasphemy? We can find the definition of blasphemy in John 10:30-33: Jesus said, “I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God.” For a man to claim he is God is blasphemy. Of course, this was not blasphemy for Jesus to make this claim because He was God.

Another definition of blasphemy is found in Mark 2:7: “Why does this man thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?” For a man to claim to be able to forgive sins is also blasphemy.

This power, therefore, must claim either that its human leader is God or that it can forgive sins, or both. Did a religious power arise after the breakup of the Roman Empire that makes either of these claims?

5) The stout horn power kills God’s people. Daniel 7:25 says, “And shall wear out the saints of the most High.” This power is a cruel, persecuting power that has put to death many hundreds of millions of Christians who wanted to worship God according to the Bible. This power put forth its own doctrine and required that people follow its laws. If a person worshiped God as specified in the Bible, he was in danger of severe persecution, even being burned at the stake. During the Saint Bartholomew’s Massacre in August, 1572, an estimated 70,000 Christians were slaughtered, and this power boasted about it in its various writings. We will look at some of these writings shortly.

(6.) This power attempted to change the times of God. Daniel 7:25 says, “he shall think himself able to change times and laws.” (Catholic Douay version). In some of its publications this power admits to having changed the day of worship from Saturday, God’s Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week, to Sunday, the first day of the week, and virtually the entire “Christian” world follows its dictates rather than the Bible.

(7.) He would attempt to change the laws of God. (Daniel 7:25). We shall shortly compare the Ten Commandments as found in the Bible with the Ten Commandments as published by the stout horn. The changes will be readily apparent.

(8.) Finally, this power reigned supreme for 1260 years. Daniel 7:25 says, “And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

9) Notice here that this beast, which is the same power as the stout horn of Daniel, chapter seven, rises out of the sea. Revelation 13:1 says, ”I . . . saw a beast rise up out of the sea.” Water, you will remember, is the symbol for many people, the sea of humanity. The ninth point of identity of this power, represented by the stout horn in Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13, is that it arises in a populated area of the world. We saw that when the Roman Empire fell, it disintegrated into ten nations, represented by the ten horns on the terrible beast of Daniel 7. It was among these nations, the heavily populated area of Europe, that this power, the stout horn, arose.

(10.) This power received a deadly wound. Revelation 13:3 says, ”I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death.” Exactly 1260 years after this power defeated the last of the three nations represented by the three uprooted horns on the head of the terrible beast of Daniel seven, the stout horn power received its deadly wound, and the world believed that this was the end of this power.

Thread Continued...

posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:03 AM
(11.) But, as Revelation 13:3 says, ”His deadly wound was healed.” This power recovered from its wound and regained much of its former strength.

(12.) Virtually the whole ”Christian” world follows the dictates of this power as Revelation 13:3,4 says. ”3All the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshiped the dragon that gave power to the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” Indeed, who is like the beast? He is completely different from all other nations, as this verse and Daniel 7:24 say. Notice who gives this power its authority and political power in this world; it is the devil. This power is known by practically everyone today, and it is a major factor in world events. The text says that ”All the world wondered after the beast.” The whole world follows after this beast. According to prophecy, this power will very shortly exert much more control over the people of the world than at present.

The reference to making war with this beast is interesting. Few nations dared to make war with this religious power during the 1260 years of its reign because they were deceived into believing that this satanic power could consign them to hell for eternity if they tried to rebel.

(13.) This power is a worldwide, well-known religion, for Revelation 13:8 says that ”all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT written” in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Since those who worship this power are not written in the book of life, it is obvious that this power is one of Satan’s counterfeit religions. Remember that we read in Revelation 13:2 that the devil gave this power its great authority. People worship this power and obey its dictates rather than God’s requirements as found in the Bible. This power effectively changed God’s requirements in the minds of most, and the people of the world obey (worship) this power rather than God, thinking that they are obeying God.

(14.) The last point of identity of this power is the number 666. Revelation 13:18 tells us that this is the number of a man. ”18Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six. [666]” It was customary in Roman times to speak of a person’s number. This number was obtained by adding the values of the Roman numeral letters in a person’s name.

Anyone who is moderately familiar with history should easily be able to understand that the power symbolized by the stout horn with eyes and a mouth in Daniel seven and the first beast of Revelation thirteen is the Roman Catholic Church, often referred to as the papacy. Here is how these prophecies have all already been fulfilled.....

(1). The ten nations that arose after the breakup of the Roman Empire were fairly well established when the papacy appeared on the stage of history, exactly as Daniel 7:24 foretold.

(2). Daniel 7:24 also foretold that the papacy would be different from the other nations. The papacy is a religious power whereas the other nations were political powers.

(3). Daniel 7:8,20,24 says that the papacy would subdue three of these nations. Because the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths had religious beliefs that were different from those of the papacy, considerable pressure was put on these nations to conform with papal doctrine. History shows that when they would not change their beliefs and accept papal doctrine, the papacy was instrumental in destroying them in battle, uprooting them so that there is no trace of these three nations in the world today. The last of these nations, the Ostrogoths, was destroyed by the papacy in 538 AD, the year in which the papacy achieved supreme power and the year in which the 1260-year prophecy of Daniel 7:25 begins.

Thread Continued...

posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:08 AM
(4). Has the papacy spoken great words of blasphemy against God, as Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:6 predicted? Blasphemy, you will remember from John 10:30-33 and Mark 2:7, is committed when a man claims to be God, and also when a man claims to be able to forgive sins. Consider some quotations from Catholic literature. Here are a few where the pope is claiming to be God: (1) We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty. — Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304. New York: Benziger Brothers. (2) All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope. — On the Authority of Councils, Bellarmine (R. C.), book 2, chap. 17 (Vol. II, p. 266), ed. 1619.

Let us consider some of the names applied to Christ in the Scriptures and see if they could possibly apply to the pope: Almighty God, Creator, Savior, Christ, Lord, Most Holy, King of kings, and Reverend. What could be more blasphemous than for a man to claim any of these titles? “And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, . . .” (Revelation 13:6).

Here is yet another blasphemous quote: "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the Vicar of God. . . . The Pope is of such lofty and supreme dignity that, properly speaking, he has not been established in any rank of dignity, but rather has been placed upon the very summit of all ranks of dignities. . . . The Pope is called most holy because he is rightfully presumed to be such. . . . The Pope alone is deservedly called by the name “most holy,” because he alone is the vicar of Christ, who is the fountain and source and fullness of all holiness. . . . He is likewise the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. . . . Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions. . . . Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertain only to heavenly things, to earthly things, and to things under the earth, but are even over angels, than whom he is greater. . . . So that if it were possible that the angels might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith, they could be judged and excommunicated by the Pope. . . . For he is of so great dignity and power that he forms one and the same tribunal with Christ. . . . The Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings. . . . The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws. — Translated from Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, art. “Papa,” (Pope) II, Vol VI, pp. 26-29."

Here are more:
"Bishops and priests being, as they are, God’s interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honor; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like to it on earth but even surpasses human reason and understanding." — Catechism of the Council of Trent for Parish Priests, trans. by John A. McHugh and Charles J. Callan (1958), p. 318. New York: Wagner, 1934.

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posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:13 AM
(5). Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 foretold that this power would put Christians to death. Has the papacy done this? Indeed it has. The number of Christians whom the Catholic Church put to death during the Dark Ages is not known exactly, but some estimates run as high as 200 million. This makes the papacy the most cruel, persecuting power that has ever existed, surpassing Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. Where is the uproar by the news media against this holocaust, which is thirty-three times the number claimed that Hitler murdered?

That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. — W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, (reprint: New York: Braziller, 1955), Vol. 2, pp. 40-45.

Consider a few more quotations from Catholic literature:

When she (the Catholic Church) thinks it good to use physical force, she will use it. — The Western Watchman, December 24, 1908.

The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error — a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state. — Pope Pius IX, Encyclical letter, August 15, 1854.

One of the things that makes the United States Constitution such a fabulous document is that it guarantees the right to liberty of conscience. Here are some more Catholic quotations.

Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said lord (the Pope), or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost persecute and oppose. — The Oath of Allegiance to the Pope, Josiah Strong, Our Country, Ch. 5, pars. 2-4.

We have always defended the persecution of the Huguenots, and the Spanish inquisition. — The Western Watchman, December 24, 1908.

(6). How did the papacy change the times of God, as predicted in Daniel 7:25? By its own admission it is the one who changed the day to be kept holy from God’s Sabbath day of the Fourth Commandment, which is Saturday, to Sunday, the old pagan day of worship on which people paid allegiance to their sun god. Consider again some quotations from Catholic sources. Remember that Revelation 13:2 tells us that the devil, Satan, gave the Catholic Church “. . . his power, and his seat, and great authority.” The part about “divine mission” in the following quote is a lie. The Catholic Church is not on a divine mission. It is on a Satanic mission as we have seen.

Quotes backing this:
The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday. — Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters. — C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

Sunday is our mark of authority . . . The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact. — Catholic Record, September 1, 1923 (Ontario).

The observance of Sunday by the protestants is an homage they pay in spite of themselves to the authority of the [Catholic] Church. — Mgr. Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, Boston: Patrick Donahoe, 1868, page 225.

(7). Did the Catholic Church change God’s laws as Daniel 7:25 predicted? The Catholic Church completely deleted the Second Commandment, that prohibits the making and worshipping of statues. They also changed the Bible Fourth Commandment, which is now their third, by removing all the instruction that tells us how to keep the Sabbath Day holy. They removed the statement which says that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. In order to have ten, they divided the Bible Tenth Commandment and made part of it their ninth.

Thread Continued...

posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:15 AM
(8). The papacy reached undisputed power in 538 AD by defeating the Ostrogoths, the last of the three nations represented by the three uprooted horns, and then, as Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 indicate, reigned supreme for 1260 years before it received its deadly wound.

(9). The papacy appeared in the populous area of Europe exactly as the Bible predicted in Daniel 7:24 by the stout horn arising among the other ten horns and in Revelation 13:1 by the beast rising out of the sea.

(10). At the expiration of the 1260-year period in 1798, the Catholic Church received its deadly wound, as Revelation 13:3 predicted. General Berthier, one of Napoleon’s generals, was sent to Rome in that year to take the pope prisoner. The pope died in exile in France the following year, and the French would not permit the election of another pope. People proclaimed, “The papacy is dead,” as once again Bible prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Precisely 1260 years after the papacy reached undisputed supremacy by defeating the last of the three nations, who would not fall into line with its doctrine, it received its deadly wound.

(11). Obviously the deadly wound was healed exactly as Bible prophecy foretold in Revelation 13:3, for the papacy is very well respected throughout the entire world today. The deadly wound was healed on February 11, 1929, when Cardinal Gaspari and Mussolini, the leader of Italy during the Second World War, signed a concordat that made the pope a king again. Today the pope is the sovereign ruler of Vatican City, a separate country, that is not a part of Italy or the city of Rome. This papal country masquerades as a church, and because of this it has been able easily to infiltrate practically every political entity in the world. What an intelligence gathering system this papal country has with its subjects telling priests everything they want to know in confessionals. The papacy is a deadly enemy of the United States as we shall see. The papacy, through her facade of religion, has been able to infiltrate thoroughly the United States government. As a result, the United States will soon lose her constitution and become a tyrannical, persecuting power according to Bible prophecy. This is discussed in detail in chapter 4.

(12). Revelation 13:3 says, “All the world wondered after the beast.” Many nations of the world send ambassadors to the Vatican, a separate country in the city of Rome, just as they do to any other nation. When the pope travels to other countries he is given a tumultuous welcome, and millions upon millions flock to see him. Virtually all of the “Christian” churches of the world follow many of the papacy’s dictates. The whole world does indeed follow after the beast. The papacy has made colossal fools of untold millions of people down through history, and it is still doing so today.

(13). The Bible predicted in Revelation 13:8 that the papacy would be a worldwide, well-known church. This prophecy has indeed come true. But Revelation 13:8 also says that the whole world would worship the papacy with the exception of God’s true people, the Saturday Sabbath- keepers. Worship entails obedience. When the people of the world obey the dictates and laws of the papacy, they are worshiping the papacy. Satan, through his agency, the papacy, has deceived virtually the entire world into observing Sunday, a pagan religious day, that the papacy by its own admission has set up instead of Saturday, God’s holy Sabbath day of the Fourth Commandment.

Thread Continued...

posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:19 AM
(14). Revelation 13:18 says that his number is 666. What is the pope’s title? The following quotations from Catholic literature tell us that the pope’s title is “Vicarius Filii Dei.”

The title of the Pope of Rome is Vicarius Filii Dei. — Our Sunday Visitor, Nov. 15, 1914, p. 3.

The letters inscribed in the pope’s mitre are these: Vicarius Filii Dei, which is Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. — Our Sunday Visitor, April 18, 1915, page 3.

Thus, the official title of the pope is Vicarius Filii Dei; translated from Latin this is Vicar of the Son of God. A vicar is a substitute in office.

A person’s number was obtained by adding the numerical values of the letters in his name, that is, the values of the letters in the Roman numeral numbering system. If the letter had no value, the value of zero was assigned. For example, the value of ”I” is one; the value of ”V” is five; and the value of ”X” is ten. There was no ”U” in the Latin alphabet; the letter ”V” is the correct letter. (This is the reason why sometimes inscriptions on older public buildings use a ”V” instead of ”U” — for instance, PVBLIC LIBRARY.) The values of the letters of this name, Vicarius Filii Dei, add up to 666, exactly as predicted in Revelation 13:18! ”. . . for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six.” (Revelation 13:18).

V = 5
I = 1
C = 100
A = 0
R = 0
I = 1
V = 5
S = 0

F =0
I = 1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1

D = 500
E = 0
I = 1

TOTAL = 666.

There you have it. How could this all possibly fit prophecy exactly, using the symbols given in the Bible, just out of coincidence?

EDIT: Somehow I missed adding the list of the 10 nations (horns) the Roman Empire disintegrated into. Here they are: Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by Gdc934]

[edit on 28-3-2009 by Gdc934]

posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:23 AM
You see that the mans image is glorified and that is beastly, but do you see what the belief has born. A character to Judge It Self.

Isa 45:4 For My servant Jacob's (heal catcher) sake, and for Israel(He will rule as God) My elect, I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me.
Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah (Self Existent), and there is none else; there is no God (Ruler) except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me,
Isa 45:6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah (Self Existent), and there is none else;
Isa 45:7 forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah (Self Existent), do all these things.


posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:47 AM
reply to post by Gdc934

Nice break down of the prophecies. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but nevertheless you may be right.


posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 12:34 PM
There are lots of people making the connections between the anti-christ and the pope. I first heard of this in a book by Edward Hendrie called The AntiChrist Conspiracy
While i agree that the similarities are great, and a very strong case is made, i find it difficult to imagine the secular world accepting the pope as their ruler and all the islamic nations converting to catholicism. I think prophecy can be fulfilled multiple ways, and this may be one of them. It is possible that the coming world ruler will overtake the papacy in the establishment of his one world religion, in fact that will likely be the case, rather than a ruler coming out of the catholic church. While many of these prophecies have been fulfilled by the RCC as an organization, i believe they will also be fulfilled by a person.

posted on Apr, 16 2009 @ 03:10 PM
Point taken. I believe most of the time the RCC was permitted to rule as this "beast" in Daniel and Revelation has already come and gone, where the dark ages were the climax of the tribulation the RCC caused. I tend to favor your opinion about an individual person fulfilling these characteristics as well. It will be very interesting to see if this person uses the RCC to also help propel him/her into their ruling position or as an aid in establishing their one world religion. We all know the RCC has or is trying to establish a one world religion as we speak.

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