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Dogma Conspiracy: God hates sin, not sinners

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posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Maybe a conspiracy of misinformation about God here floating around as dogma.

After a brief search on the topic (God hates...) I see much has been posted in the past on related topics, mostly related to homosexuality and the Westboro Baptist Church. However, maybe this is a different approach to those posts. Obviously, one can't read them all.

I was challenged by someone that God only hates sin, never the sinner, and that we should do likewise. It's dogmatically accepted in most Christian circles. Notwithstanding the fact that a) God opens the door for restoration, see Is 55:7-9 and the Gospels, and b) that we're in no position as the unrighteous to hate anybody but only to relay the love of God in restoration, it seems that the dogma is false.

One can argue the sense in which 'hate' is actually expressed, i.e. shunning or separation verses emotional hatred, but I don't see that getting in the way in the slightest.

Coming to this conclusion, I referenced everything I could find where the God of the bible says he hates (despises, detests, abhors, finds abominable) people or groups of people. There are many references where God says he hates behaviors, e.g. lying, and things, e.g. the wages of a harlot offered as a sacrifice. Not nearly as many about him hating people for their sin.

Here it is. I'm using the NKJV but x-ref'd with the concordance for NIV.

In order:

Lev 20:23 - 'And you shall not walk in the statues of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them.' (the people, not the things they commit)

Lev 26:30 - I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you.

Dt 18:12 - For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord

Dt 22:5 - A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

Ps 5:6 - The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Ps 53:5 - There they are in great fear where no fear was, for God has scattered the bones of him who encamps against you; you have put them to shame, because God has despised them.

Pr 3:32 - For the perverse person is an abomination to the Lord.

Pr 11:20 - Those who are of a perverse heart are an abomination to the Lord.

Pr 16:5 - Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord

Pr 17:15 - He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord

Hos 9:15 - All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them, because of their evil deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. (this is prophecy about a future punishment for Israel)

Ti 1:16 - They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every god work.

Anyway, enjoy reading your bibles!




posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 04:44 PM
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I think he can forgive sinners pretty easily when you look at what a jerk he was to Job.He was nasty as hell to that dude.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:20 PM
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Sorry, I'm missing something here. Your argument is based upon the statistical occurrence of hate/person and hate/sin in the bible?

The bible in a sense, is the edited highlights of the life of Jesus, not a complete bibliography. I'm not bashing the point, just questioning the route to the conclusion.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by Ichabod
 


Not to mention that if he just hated sin, he would get rid of the source (Satan) instead of torturing sinners for eternity.
Mmmm, can you feel the love?



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by Ichabod
 


Yup, he hates sin and sometimes hates the people because of their sin. It would be easy to take Satan out of the mix, too easy for those who don't believe, he wants to give EVERYONE the chance to change before the end. If they make the choice to do as they please, tough luck. His love is evident every time you have a chance to accept him. Vengeance is also his, not just love.


God Bless.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by B.A.C.]



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by Ichabod
 


i understand what your point is and your right it is dogmatic.

but it really isnt a b/w issue, its more case by case.

rom 5:[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

if god hated the sinner, that means that god would hate us all. period.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

this scripture says that god loves us, so the above statement cant be true.

however you cite scriptures that do show that god hates certain people. so it cant be 100% one way or the other.

back to verse 8 he is talking about people who christ died for. yes christ died for the world, however not the entire world would accept his sacrifice.

likely, when the scriptures talk about god hating someone, it is because this person is willfully and unrepentantly practicing sin with no effort to change.

for example.
Ps 5:6 - The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

this isnt talking about someone who sins out of weakness, rather someone who has made sin a way of life. something rooted deep in his heart.

Ti 1:16 - They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every god work.

again, people who know what they are suppose to be like, but refuse to be that way.

i know you´d like to say that god is this horrible evil person for hating sinners, but the truth is there are times he is justified.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
Not to mention that if he just hated sin, he would get rid of the source (Satan) instead of torturing sinners for eternity.
Mmmm, can you feel the love?


rom 6:[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

why would a person have to suffer an eternity of torture if his death frees him from debt?



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 
Sorry, the Bible does NOT ever say a man who goes to hell, lives forever, and is concious forever. It says he is dead, and has no more knowledge of what is going on. The fallen angels will live forever, and hell was made for them, not us. The Bible says that HELL lasts forever. Big difference.




posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by Ichabod
 


Not to mention that if he just hated sin, he would get rid of the source (Satan) instead of torturing sinners for eternity.
Mmmm, can you feel the love?


Study the Bible, it doesn't say anything of the sort. Also, there is a reason Satan is still operating. Everything has a reason.

Does the clay say to the potter, why have you made me like this? Some are made for honour, some for dishonour.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by Gregarious
reply to post by TruthParadox
 
Sorry, the Bible does NOT ever say a man who goes to hell, lives forever, and is concious forever. It says he is dead, and has no more knowledge of what is going on. The fallen angels will live forever, and hell was made for them, not us. The Bible says that HELL lasts forever. Big difference.



Yeah, I'm aware of the debate.
However, Jesus does relay a parable in which a man is in Hell and says something to the effect of "Tell my family about this place, lest they come to this place of torment".
It was a common belief that people were tormented in Hell for eternity.
Jesus could have simply been using that belief as a parable, but I find it odd that he would not have taught otherwise. It seems a pretty big difference to me.

Either way, you can't deny that many Christians believe this, and I'm really arguing against a belief system and not a book.
If you don't believe in Hell being a place of torture, good, but there are plenty of people that do.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by B.A.C.


Not to mention that if he just hated sin, he would get rid of the source (Satan) instead of torturing sinners for eternity.
Mmmm, can you feel the love?


Study the Bible, it doesn't say anything of the sort.


Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’


Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels


Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation



Originally posted by B.A.C.
Also, there is a reason Satan is still operating. Everything has a reason.


That's one way of looking at it
.
I'm guessing there's a reason for starving children as well...



Originally posted by B.A.C.
Does the clay say to the potter, why have you made me like this? Some are made for honour, some for dishonour.


So you do believe in predestination?
How then is judgment just?
If you make something, and it's exactly how you make it, why would you punish it for being how you made it?

[edit on 27-3-2009 by TruthParadox]



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by Ichabod
 


You should cite your sources, you didn't come up with these yourself, or you wouldn't have missed the many other Perfect Examples of God Hating the Person.

Using other people's arguments just because you buy them doesn't make them right, just stolen...

Best Example is Essau, maybe do some of your own work and find out about him...



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 08:23 PM
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People are loosing their sense of moarlity b/c they are loosing their idea of what God is. God is the self conscious reality of colective minds that decide what is good in the universe. Good is to love as evil is to hate. It's that simple.



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


This doesn't say they are tormented forever.



Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’


Again this doesn't say he will be tormented forever.



Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


Death is the everlasting punishment.



Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels


The fire is everlasting, it doesn't say the punishment is.



Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation


Yup, condemned to death for eternity.




That's one way of looking at it
.
I'm guessing there's a reason for starving children as well...


Yup, we're the reason. Mankind. You don't think if everyone wasn't so selfish we couldn't feed these people? Heck, one month of the U.S.'s Military budget would probably do it.



So you do believe in predestination?
How then is judgment just?
If you make something, and it's exactly how you make it, why would you punish it for being how you made it?


Nope I don't believe in predestination. They still have freewill to choose a different way, they just don't, God knows they won't, but he still has to let it prove itself out or it isn't freewill is it?.

We're all sinners, every one of us. My salvation hinges on belief in Jesus as my saviour, if it was my actions, I'd be screwed.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by B.A.C.]



posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 09:27 PM
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I would point out that you are correct, it is a parable. And a parable is fictional, designed to make a point. It is fiction, not true. It could be true or it could not be true. But the Bible is quite clear that the dead no nothing. I don't have it handy, but you can look it up in a Strongs' Concordance under 'know nothing'.
And the GIFT of God is...eternal life. What kind of a 'gift' would eternal torture be? Some were resurrected when Christ was, but none that I know of since. Man is definately not an eternal being. The 'aliens', are! There are some great men of power, powerful families thru history, maybe Illuminati, that are 'sons of Lucifer'. That is what it says, and it does not say 'figuratively'. They are SONS. But we have no way of knowing the difference between the Wheat and the Tares. The 'good' aliens will sort them out, in a few years. But I have my hunches who they are, from their actions.



posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by Ichabod
 


You should cite your sources, you didn't come up with these yourself, or you wouldn't have missed the many other Perfect Examples of God Hating the Person.

Using other people's arguments just because you buy them doesn't make them right, just stolen...

Best Example is Essau, maybe do some of your own work and find out about him...


I know you doubt that anyone can have an original thought if it happens to overlap with what you've read somewhere else, but it's pure Ichabod, I assure you.

As for Esau, I was fence sitting about the Edomites. I take it you want them included. Why don't you cite the "many other instances" yourself if you want to add to the discussion rather than throwing around unfounded accusations.



posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
reply to post by Ichabod
 


i know you´d like to say that god is this horrible evil person for hating sinners, but the truth is there are times he is justified.


Wrongo - I wouldn't say that at all. God is perfectly justified in all His actions. He provides restoration for the sinners he hates who, as you aptly stated, have put themselves in enmity to God. They have hated him first and for no reason.

He can hate sinners and still provide a way back before judgment and condemnation.

Thanks for your post!



posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by Ichabod
 


Not to mention that if he just hated sin, he would get rid of the source (Satan) instead of torturing sinners for eternity.
Mmmm, can you feel the love?


What are the sources of sin?

I can think of three: man, Satan, world.

Man can't just blame it on Satan. After all, consider when Eve sinned. Wasn't it when she placed herself in authority over God, to exercise her own will in an area she did not have dominion over? Tempted by Satan, yes, but that doesn't get man off the hook. Break down the decision processes at play here.

Further, man has his chance, read Is 55:7-9. You want to whine about eternal separation from God as punishment for iniquity but what is the counter proposal? Everyone gets in? A few 'good works' folks get in?

Too shallow - think deeper TP.



posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by Ichabod
i know you´d like to say that god is this horrible evil person for hating sinners, but the truth is there are times he is justified.


Wrongo - I wouldn't say that at all. God is perfectly justified in all His actions. He provides restoration for the sinners he hates who, as you aptly stated, have put themselves in enmity to God. They have hated him first and for no reason.

He can hate sinners and still provide a way back before judgment and condemnation.

Thanks for your post!

thats an interesting way of looking at it. however the bible never says that he hates repentant sinners or even ignorant sinners. in fact quite the opposite.



posted on Mar, 28 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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Right, I'm not saying either of those things. He hates specific types of reprobate sinners that have placed themselves in enmity to Him.

Repentant sinners will be restored. Ignorant sinners, and there is such a thing as evidenced by the original sacrificial system of unintentional sins, are not in my list of those he hates.

I haven't seen anyone come up with any additions to the list yet.



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